New Thoughts on the Movie Break Point

The forthcoming Hobbit movie
egorjosh2
Posts: 5

New Thoughts on the Movie Break Point

Post#1 » Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:59 am

OK, there has been a lot of discussion about when they are going to cut the movie. For some reason a lot of people seem to think it will come with the death of Smaug. No way, its too late in the story and not enough for the 2nd film. I actually think based on GDT's statement concerning relationships changing that the cut will take place after Bilbo has freed his friends from the Spiders and they have been captured by the Woodelves. This is when the relationship between Bilbo and the dwarves really changed. He went from being a scared follower to a leader that the dwarved trusted to get them out of a tight spot. However, I would like to propose another way to do this thing.

Didn't the White Council enlist the help of the elves of Lothlorian to attack Dol Gulder or am I just remembering the fact that Sauron launched 3 attacks from Dol Gulder against Lorien during the War of the Ring? If they didn't help then a think a great piece of poetic license on the part of the filmmakers is to include the Lorien elves as part a massive preemptive strike on Sauron. A sort of a reversal of the Helm's Deep battle where the good guys are on the offensive and attacking a well fortified position but are not outnumbered and facing certain death Most of the White Council stuff including Gandalf's infiltration of Dol Gulder where he finds Thrain prisoner and gets the map and the key could be included in the first film. The big battle could actually be the big ending. I think it would be unwise to try to pack a major assault on Dol Gulder and the massive Battle of Five Armies into the same movie and think people won't get battle fatigue. Plus, we could save a lot of the really good Hobbit stuff for the second film where the attention needs to be with Bilbo's quest and not distracted by Gandalf's doings elsewhere.
I think the adventure in the Misty Mountains and the finding of the ring are significant enough events for the first movie that we can save Mirkwood for the second movie. Yes, Bilbo's story needs a good place to cut so I propose the last action sequence for them be the escape from the Goblins on Wargs where they have to climb the trees and they escape with the help of the Eagles. They are dropped off at the Carrock and then the story skips over Beorn and goes straight to them entering Mirkwood and Gandalf saying he is leaving for pressing business down south. And we all know where he is going, the big battle at Dol Gulder that will end the movie on a high note.
The second film could then begin with an ever so brief flashback of the Eagles rescueing the dwarves and pick up at the Carrock. Beorn could be the first 10 minutes of the second film much like the feast opened ROTK. Start it on a slow note knowing that it is going to be packed full of action by the end. Get them into Mirkwood and they are off and running. I envision a running length of not more than 2 hours for the first film and more like 2:45 for the second with only Hobbit stuff in the second. All White Tower stuff happens in film one since it has little to no bearing on the events later in the book and would only serve to distract from the more important action in Mirkwood and in and around the Lonely Mountain. I can see only one major problem with this. All of Ian McKellen's screen time will appear in the first films and his appearance at the end of the second will be but a cameo. Plus, audiences might start wondering is the movie about the Hobbit at all or should they call it the Wizard? Let's get some feedback on this suggestion.

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Beren
Posts: 276

New Thoughts on the Movie Break Point

Post#2 » Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:08 am

It seems to me that skipping Beorn in film 1 and then sticking him in for the beginning of film 2 would confuse viewers. If film 1 went straight to mirkwood, and then film 2 says that they stopped at Beorn's first, then there's a huge continuity issue there.
This gets confusing when you try to stop it at this point. At first, I thought: they should stop it at Beorn. But then that's really early in the story, and Gandalf hasn't even left them yet. Then I thought they could change it so that Gandalf leaves before Beorn, but then I remembered that Gandalf is Beorn's friend, and the only reason that Beorn didn't kill the hobbits.
I say that they include Beorn in film 1, include Gandalf leaving them at the edge of mirkwood, and then for the last bit of the film, switch back and forth between Gandalf's doings and the adventure in Mirkwood. Then end with the hobbits getting captured by the elves and have the battle at Dol Guldur wrap up simultaniously.

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Gandalfs Beard
Posts: 2311

New Thoughts on the Movie Break Point

Post#3 » Sat Jul 11, 2009 3:44 pm

Well I was definitely one of the Death of Smaug camp, but I'm coming round to the idea of the breakpoint being with the Dwarves in the Elve's dungeon. My biggest issue though, is the question of tone.

If you have Smaugs death be the breakpoint then the entire first film can be quite jolly and kid friendly--with a set up scene or two for Gandalf and the White Council. Then the second film can get progressively darker and more adult: focussing on the activities of the White Council and the Necromancer in the first half. Then Gandalf meets up with the dwarves and Bilbo in time for the Battle of Five Armies. Then the film can end with Bilbo's return to the Shire and telling a young Frodo the tale of his adventures, thus leading smoothly into the LotR in case the "bridging" film never gets made.

GB

egorjosh2
Posts: 5

New Thoughts on the Movie Break Point

Post#4 » Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:48 pm

The reason I thought move Beorn to the second movie is because everybody sitting down and having a nice dinner is not the way to end Bilbo and the dwarves part of the story. Very anticlimatic. Its more a beginning point than an ending.

I agree that that leaves a lot of action for the second movie. But hey, action takes place much faster on film than exposition. Remember when PJ moved Shelob to ROTK and everyone was up in arms over how he was going to get everything into the last movie and claimed it was a big mistake? That worked out just fine because a great action scene doesn't have to be long to get the job done. Where the hard cuts came was in filming the FOTR. That movie had to set up the whole backstory and explain why everything was happening as it did.

The first Hobbit movie will face the same problems, establishing the quest, the reason behind it, introducing the protagonists and the antagonists, etc. For better or worse, the first film will inevitably be slower in pace than the second. For that reason, a good battle scene at the end would do a lot to wake people up and get them back at the cineplex for the second installment. Since all the groundwork will have been already laid, the second movie can be all Hobbit adventure story with a much quicker pace and more exciting action.

egorjosh2
Posts: 5

New Thoughts on the Movie Break Point

Post#5 » Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:52 pm

And as far as the idea that the first Hobbit should be kid friendly and the second darker in tone I disagree. Sure, the Hobbit was a more kid friendly book but PJ and GDT both have said in interviews that splitting the Hobbit into 2 movies would better allow them to adapt the same tone as the previous LOTR films, and they were not kid friendly. And why would we want it that way? Do we want this franchise to go the way of Star Wars, God forbid? And I think the idea of the bridging film has been abandoned, at least by PJ and GDT, if not by New Line Cinema or whoever holds the rights now.

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Beren
Posts: 276

New Thoughts on the Movie Break Point

Post#6 » Sat Jul 11, 2009 10:11 pm

The thing, egorjosh2, is that The Hobbit is a very different book. It wasn't written after LOTR to provide a prequel. It was written well before LOTR as a children's story. Rayner Unwin, as a child reviewer, said "It should appeal to all children between the ages of 5 and 9." Now, personally, I think that's a little exaggerated. Maybe not 5. Maybe more like 8 to 14. But it is a children's story (a story mean to be read or told by the fireside at night), and LOTR is not. People clamored for a sequel to the Hobbit, so Tolkien wrote one. It just turned out to be bigger, scarier, and more mature than he originally thought.

So they are entirely two different entities. But they are connected by the Ring.

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Gandalfs Beard
Posts: 2311

New Thoughts on the Movie Break Point

Post#7 » Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:51 am

I don't think it's that the idea of a bridging film is entirely abandoned, rather the problem is that until the Tolkien Estates suit is settled, the necessary material is not available. So in order for a smooth transition from a childrens adventure tale to a Medieval Epic to work, it will be necessary to gradually change the tone. With 2 films to work with, the "kid stuff" can be done in the first film if one ends the film with the Death of Smaug, and the second film would take on more of the "Epic" material (some of it as flashback).

Though I do think a case could be made for spreading things out and ending the first film with the cliffhanger of the Dwarves being captured by the Elves. But that would make the challenge of gradually darkening the tone while maintaining the "Fairy Tale" aspect much more difficult. And there has been precedent for a "childrens" film that is edgy enough for adults: Time Bandits.

GB

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Show
Posts: 138

New Thoughts on the Movie Break Point

Post#8 » Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:12 pm

I think I'll start with an answer (or partial answer) to the first question egorjosh2 posted.
Didn't the White Council enlist the help of the elves of Lothlorian to attack Dol Gulder or am I just remembering the fact that Sauron launched 3 attacks from Dol Gulder against Lorien during the War of the Ring?

I can not answer as to an army of elves attacking, but Galadriel is on the White Council. At least she is as I understand it. And as the defacto leader of the Noldor Elves and one who has lived in the light of the Trees, I would imagine she is on the council. From there it is no real stretch to presume that the elves of Lothlorien would aid in the attack of Dol Guldor.
Go even one better. Put Haldir in the battle as well. Another repeat customer from LotR.

And further a good point on battle fatigue for putting the Dol Guldor and Five Armies in the same movie. Granted the Pelennor Fields and the Morannan were both in RotK, but the Morannan was a much smaller scale battle. I would like the assault on Dol Guldor to be bigger and better than that.
****
For the Hobbit break, I still want to push film one all the way to the elves of Mirkwood. I know the cliffhanger of being left in the dungeons has been floated around a bit. I still thought a better ending would be when the barrels leave port. But again, with that is the pesky too much too little balance from film to film.
For me, a small conflict for the party spider encounter, elves encounter, Beorn encounter should not be cut by the movie break. It just hurts the flow.

egorjosh2
Posts: 5

New Thoughts on the Movie Break Point

Post#9 » Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:47 am

Thanks for everyones comments on this. I really wouldn't have a problem extending Bilbos jouney into Mirkwood at least up till he saves them from the spiders and they are captured by the elves. I think this could happen and Dol Gulder still take place in the first film. First film just might be a little longer and the second a little shorter but it could still work certainly. The big obstical I see for moving Dol Gulder to the second is that the filmmakers will want to spend some time setting up the story behind the attack, ie the meetings of the Council, etc. Unfortunately there would be no payoff for all that exposition in part 1. At least in BIlbo's part of the story you get a few good action sequences and the finding of the ring. What do we get in film 1 for the time spent talking about the Necromancer? Nothing but the promise that something big is going to happen in film 2.

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chris63
Posts: 218

New Thoughts on the Movie Break Point

Post#10 » Sun Jul 26, 2009 3:02 pm

like i said on another topic. The first movie will end when Gandalf leaves them at the edge of Mirkwood. Could be when bombur wakes up from his sleep after his fall in the water and ask's what happened. then they could have a flashback of the first movie just to remind the audiance of whats gone on. Not worded well but you no wot a mean. :roll: :roll: :lol: :lol:

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