Thrain II, Gandalf and the quest for Erebor

The forthcoming Hobbit movie
Elladan
Posts: 30

Thrain II, Gandalf and the quest for Erebor

Post#1 » Sat Sep 12, 2009 6:00 pm

Okay we all know that with in the hobbit films are the plans to show Gandalfs activities. We also know there were originally plans to explore the events and actions of the many characters between the hobbit and tLotR.

I am wondering however if there was or still is any plans to show how and why the events of the hobbit take place.

Will we see, or perhaps hear of Gandalfs first excursion in to Dol Guldur, his meeting with Thrain II, the recovering of the map and key, his subsequent meeting of Thorin and his trip to the blue mountains?

I would never expect these events to take place in chronological order, unless as some kind of prologue, much rather as flash backs through out the films. As with Bilbos finding of the ring in tLotR. I would assume the prologue would show Smaugs decent onto Erebor and Thrain and Thorins escape.

Only these do seem to be pivotal points in the over all story of the ring, and the hobbit. They also seem to be almost entirely in scenes already depicted, Dol Guldur, the prancing pony and Erebor.

Do new line even have the rights to these areas? Is it the lord of the rings the hobbit and thier appendices or only the appendices that fall chronologically between the hobbit and the lord of the rings?

Any thoughts?

finglas
Posts: 9

Thrain II, Gandalf and the quest for Erebor

Post#2 » Sat Sep 12, 2009 6:53 pm

Hi Elladen,

I suppose they could take the one Thrain argument and completely eliminate the need to deal with the "Durin's folk" appendix. Steuerd Jensen discusses this quite thoroughly in this essay (http://tolkien.slimy.com/essays/ThrainHist.html) which has good notes to the opposing 2 Thrains view. I personally think that the discrepancies probably result from Tolkien not realizing that what he was writing would be as analyzed as it has been, but it could provide a way for the studio not to have to deal with the estate again, particularly since they just got a settlement on The Hobbit.

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Gandalfs Beard
Posts: 2311

Thrain II, Gandalf and the quest for Erebor

Post#3 » Sat Sep 12, 2009 7:38 pm

Actually, I think the settlement opens up the possibility that some of these backstories are more likely to appear now. Especially as New Line is now a subsidiary of Warner Bros and is therefore putting their rep on the line too.

GB

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Beren
Posts: 276

Thrain II, Gandalf and the quest for Erebor

Post#4 » Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:15 pm

I think it all depends on the terms of the settlement. Perhaps the Tolkien estate has opened up a limited amount of the appendices for the film. Or maybe they've opened it all the way. We don't know for sure.
But is seems to me that it is most likely that they'll show this particular sequence as a quick flashback at some point when Gandalf has time to explain the whole deal to Bilbo.

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Show
Posts: 138

Thrain II, Gandalf and the quest for Erebor

Post#5 » Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:44 am

My opinion in a nutshell, no.
Long stories have a hard time translating into film. Jackson did a wonderful thing for us when he made LotR as great as he did.
But even that was not perfect. Be it the loss of beloved characters like Bombadil or Frodo forsaking Sam before entering Cirith Ungol. Even the huge fans of the movie had irks with the conversion. At least those of us who knew the books.
But what I keep reminding myself is that if a film includes all the "important" exposition we want, all the history and backgrounds, you end up with a flop and boring film.
Books are not film. Movies are not books. The depth, detail, and history that Tolkien created simply does not survive a change into film. It couldn't. The only hope is to change as little as possible while remaining true in spirit to the source material.
It boils down to quantity vs. quality. I would rather a wonderful version of the hobbit, than a crappy version that includes everyone's back-story.
To include even more of middle-earth and the larger picture that Tolkien created is a titillating notion for fans like us. But after consideration, I think it would ruin the film.
I think, and hope, that the powers that be will refrain from going out into wide ranging tangents. And instead focus on telling the story of thirteen dwarves and one hobbit going on a journey to get back a hoard of gold.
Over stuffing the film with back-story would just drag the film down and kill the pacing.
.
At least that is my current opinion.

P.S. I thought the handling of the Prolouge for FotR was perfect. They provided just enough of history to keep friends of mine who never read the books from asking a million questions during the movie.

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Gandalfs Beard
Posts: 2311

Thrain II, Gandalf and the quest for Erebor

Post#6 » Mon Sep 14, 2009 1:57 pm

Hear, Hear Show *clapping*. You really nailed how I hope the direction of the film goes.

GB

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Eldorion
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Thrain II, Gandalf and the quest for Erebor

Post#7 » Fri Sep 25, 2009 6:20 pm

Beren wrote:I think it all depends on the terms of the settlement. Perhaps the Tolkien estate has opened up a limited amount of the appendices for the film. Or maybe they've opened it all the way. We don't know for sure.


The appendices are part of LOTR. The film rights to LOTR were sold before there even was an estate. Now that the Estate is not fighting any legal battles, there is no obstacle to the filmmakers utilizing the appendices (as PJ did before).

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Eldorion
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Thrain II, Gandalf and the quest for Erebor

Post#8 » Fri Sep 25, 2009 6:28 pm

I absolutely agree about quantity vs. quality and the focus of the story, Show. The Hobbit is about the Quest of Erebor, and in my humble opinion we don't need to know everything else that happened before, during, and after it. What is essential can be communicated through brief dialog, which can work in films (Shadow of the Past in the FOTR movie comes to mind) as well as books.

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Beren
Posts: 276

Thrain II, Gandalf and the quest for Erebor

Post#9 » Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:54 pm

Eldorion wrote:
Beren wrote:I think it all depends on the terms of the settlement. Perhaps the Tolkien estate has opened up a limited amount of the appendices for the film. Or maybe they've opened it all the way. We don't know for sure.


The appendices are part of LOTR. The film rights to LOTR were sold before there even was an estate. Now that the Estate is not fighting any legal battles, there is no obstacle to the filmmakers utilizing the appendices (as PJ did before).


But the Estate could have, in their agreement with New Line, limited the amount of thing they could use from the appendices. Since New Line reportedly owed the Estate a LOT of money, if the Estate was going to settle for something less, they have the right to restrict certain things. At least, that's how I understand it.

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Eldorion
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Thrain II, Gandalf and the quest for Erebor

Post#10 » Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:03 pm

Beren wrote:But the Estate could have, in their agreement with New Line, limited the amount of thing they could use from the appendices. Since New Line reportedly owed the Estate a LOT of money, if the Estate was going to settle for something less, they have the right to restrict certain things. At least, that's how I understand it.


Well, the BBC reported that the settlement "an undisclosed sum", though I don't what their source for that was. I'm doubtful that the Tolkien Estate tried to modify the terms of the original rights sale so that it applied only to parts of LOTR. They never expressed that as a goal at any rate (to my knowledge), I believe they simply wanted to suspend The Hobbit because they hadn't been paid.

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