the witchking of angmar

The forthcoming Hobbit movie
cliff2005
Posts: 8

the witchking of angmar

Post#1 » Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:12 pm

Just saw the hobbit movie. One scene where the morgul blade is presented to the white council puzzled me.

They say it belongs to the witchking of angmar and that he (and the sword) were buried deep underground but I thought the witch king of angmar was never killed, doesnt he escape hence the line 'no man will kill him' and goes to occupy minas morgul after the war in the north??

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galin
Posts: 1369

the witchking of angmar

Post#2 » Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:38 pm


Well in Tolkien's world the Witch-king escapes, prompting Glorfindel's prophecy as you say, but I haven't seen The Hobbit yet so all I can do is confirm that he does escape here, and in TA 1980 he comes to Mordor and gathers the Nazgul.



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brego
Posts: 1275

the witchking of angmar

Post#3 » Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:24 pm

Yes Cliff it's all a bit vague in book and film. The Morgul Knife isn't the knife that stabbed Frodo, it was simply a Knife with the Nazgul use. Also I'm pretty sure none of the knife business is in the books, it's an invention of PJ to link the stories for those who haven't read Tolkien.

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galin
Posts: 1369

the witchking of angmar

Post#4 » Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:29 am


Still, it's not vague in the book that the Witch-king is not slain at this point, which Cliff2005 is comparing to the Witch-king being 'buried deep underground' according to the films.



How the Witch-king ended up buried in the film may be vague so far (I assume it is anyway, going by what others are posting), but in the books we know that he did not fall by the hand of man until Eowyn and Merry, including even by King Earnur's hand, who was both a man and a Man and would have fulfilled Glorfindel's prophecy.  



Indis
Posts: 332

the witchking of angmar

Post#5 » Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:21 am



How the Witch-king ended up buried in the film may be vague so far (I assume it is anyway, going by what others are posting), but in the books we know that he did not fall by the hand of man until Eowyn and Merry, including even by King Earnur's hand, who was both a man and a Man and would have fulfilled Glorfindel's prophecy.




Galin, I'd love to know where I can read more about the Witchking's story. His identity is really interesting to me, as much as the story of Barrow-downs. I can see the connection, but it's just a big, foggy mess in my head. I know that I won't find any clear information on it, but I can't help it.



Indis
Posts: 332

the witchking of angmar

Post#6 » Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:56 am


Oh, so I'm re-reading these sources this weekend! :) I saw online an essay where an author (too bad, I don't remember who it was or how I found it!)  tries to figure out the identity of Witchking, and he suggests that WK might be a former member of royal family in Numenor. He also makes some points why it cannot be one of Numenorean kings (which I believe was also clarified by J.R.R. Tolkien, I'm not sure though). He tried to find some dates, and even estimated how much it took to make a Nazgul from a Man. Very interesting.



I remember that the Ringwraith second to the WK was the former Easterling. I'm talking about Khamul here.



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galin
Posts: 1369

the witchking of angmar

Post#7 » Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:59 am


Interesting. I would like to read that article if you happen to find it again some day.



I'll try google too!



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galin
Posts: 1369

the witchking of angmar

Post#8 » Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:04 am


Indis, hmm, going from memory Glorfindel's encounter is briefly (but interestingly) described in Appendix A for example, and subsequent movements and doings can be traced in Appendix B. Tolkien refers to him at least once in a letter, and I think there are scattered references in posthumously published writings (or at least to the Nazgul in general)...



... I suppose one could collect all that is said of him, or the Wraiths in general, and produce a substantial enough report, but his identity is left vague for example, and there are notable chunks of time where we have no mention of his doings. Tolkien noted that:




'The name and origin of the Witch-king is not recorded, but he was probably (like the Lieutenant of Barad-dur [the Mouth of Sauron]) of Numenorean descent.'



published by Hammond and Scull




So again Brego is not wrong with respect to his 'all a bit vague' comment, but I wanted to stress that according to the books at least, we have no reason to think the Witch-king was slain or buried during the time of The Hobbit, which I think was Cliff2005's point for wondering what the film was up to.



At one point King Earnur accepts the WK's challenge, but I'm guessing it didn't go well for Earnur.



One interesting thing (Appendix A) is that the WK was said to have feared Boromir... another Boromir not the Boromir of the Fellowship...



... but still :)



Indis
Posts: 332

the witchking of angmar

Post#9 » Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:08 am


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galin
Posts: 1369

the witchking of angmar

Post#10 » Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:28 am


Wow that was quick. Thanks!



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