Turgon, king of Gondolin

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PlasticSquirrel
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Turgon, king of Gondolin

Post#1 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

I always thought Turgon was kind of like an Ostrich, hiding his head in the sand and hoping the problem would go away. He did come good a couple of times though, but he should have trusted Tuor quicker. Of the two who forged their secret fortresses, I still prefer felagund, sorry!
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Ungoliant
Posts: 993

Turgon, king of Gondolin

Post#2 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

But Feanor was also proud & complacent...even more than the sons of Fingoflin & Finarfin. I don't think that it could be called human failings, since Feanor & most of his sons had 'em. Elves aren't noble and wise all the time.

Ermm...what are Elven values, btw?

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PlasticSquirrel
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Turgon, king of Gondolin

Post#3 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

About £20 a share at the mo I think :D
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Allyssa
Posts: 1657

Turgon, king of Gondolin

Post#4 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

The elven values I was referring to were the responsibility of a leader to do the right thing by his people. Turgon made the wrong choice and most of the people of Gondonlin died as a result. I think he fealt a lot of remorse in the end, when he realised what he had done, that's why he chose to die rather than escape. I think that is noble.

Feanor was only interested in revenge when he came to ME. He wasn't there long before his recklessness got him killed. Proud? yes. Complacent? When did he get time? And you can't say Feanor was kind to his sons. He pushed them on to fullfill the oath, even as he died.

As for the others, complacent? Not to the point of halving their guard on their boarders as if the outside world didn't exist any more. Humans often ignore something in the hope it will go away. I think most people can identify with that. It makes us feel closer to him, and makes him seem less "above" us. I like to see characters with flaws. Makes them more interesting.
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seyoungahn
Posts: 4

Turgon, king of Gondolin

Post#5 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

I don't mind Turgon, but I must say I preferred Finrod, too.

Ungoliant
Posts: 993

Turgon, king of Gondolin

Post#6 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Ok, I concede the 'complacent' point about Feanor...but I still think that Feanor is more human than all the other Elves, including Turgon. True, I haven't read as much on Turgon as you have, but Feanor seems to be more 'earthy' (thus human) - he's proud, passionate & a very skilled craftsman...kinda like the human warriors of old. Turgon seems to be too pure & lofty to be human somehow.

Eryan
Posts: 845

Turgon, king of Gondolin

Post#7 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

I still feel very sorry for Hurin who wanted to come back to Gondolin after ahving been released from Angband... and Turgon hesitated such a long while and finally Hurin had to depart and committed suicide.
When we realise how much Hurin did to save Turgon and at what cost to himself and his own family... this is extremely sad.

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Allyssa
Posts: 1657

Turgon, king of Gondolin

Post#8 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

You have my agreement yet again Eryan. And I think hesitancy and indecision are more human-like failings. He hesitates because he fears for the security of his realm, and yet it is this very hesitation that gives away its location to Morgoth. Very ironic and moving.

I find it difficult to think of Feanor as human because of his distain for the secondborn races as inferior and repulsive, as he is described in The Book of Lost Tales (I think). He does make for an interesting catalystic character though.
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Eryan
Posts: 845

Turgon, king of Gondolin

Post#9 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Very true Allyssa!...
For me, the question of alliances with no real equality among allies belongs to the most
sad and tragic questions in human history. There are hundreds of examples of situations
in which "faithful alllies" had the right to die for you, but not the inverse! Foul play...
In Tolkien's world Finrod Felagund is the most important exception. He really treats
Barahir and Beren as his equals.

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Allyssa
Posts: 1657

Turgon, king of Gondolin

Post#10 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

I think Finrod should have his own thread....
he certainly deserves it.

Yes, and I suppose Turgon did give Hurin a pretty raw deal. Hurin sacrafices all, and Turgon ignores him? Not nice. But very true to indecisive, hesitant character. If Hurin had been an elf, do you think Turgon would have acted differently?

Turgon did however allow Tuor (a human) to marry his daughter, so he must have had some sense of "equality" with humans. All of Gondolin is said to have taken heart at the sight of Tour on the battlements,Tuor was also more popular than the ill-favoured Meaglin (an elf), so it seems that the Gondolithrim in general felt no particular disdain for motals.

AS for thinking of them as equals? Its not quite the same thing, but they seem to be at least regarded close to equals.
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