Is'nt a fail of the Elvs? (ironical chritic, dont read if....)

sepdet
Posts: 64

Is'nt a fail of the Elvs? (ironical chritic, dont read if....)

Post#1 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Ich verstehe die Meisten und mein Deutsch ist sehr schlecht. .. :D
( I understand most and my German is very bad)

so if this were a German bulletin board I'm sure I couldn't say a single word!

I see you changed your mind. But not so fast! There is a difference.
You weren't alive in the 1930s. But Elrond was alive when the Rings were forged. So were all the Elves at the Council of Elrond, except, perhaps, Legolas (whose family in any case wasn't living anywhere nearby when the Rings were made).

Then the question becomes: do you blame a group of people because of the actions of a few, or even the actions of their leaders (a question that is still relevent today)? Or maybe it wasn't their fault, but they have a responsibility to set things right anyway, since it was some of their own people that caused the problem ?

I am still puzzled why Elrond picked a wanna-be Wood-elf, as opposed to more experienced and well-known and powerful elves, to represent Elves in the Fellowship. Maybe it was something as boring as the fact that he knew Legolas was heading home anyway, and for part of the journey he'd be going the same direction, so why not send him along? That is, to some extent, the reason Boromir was invited. But surely there was more reason than that.

It almost seems like Elrond sent the only elf who couldn't possibly be blamed for the Rings to help get rid of this one. Why? Why does Thranduil's son have to help clean up the mess of the very people his father rejected? Maybe Elrond hoped he'd be more immune to the RIng's lure than most elves, since he was raised to think Rings and Jewels and all that Noldor nonsense were a bad idea?

Nessa
Posts: 86

Is'nt a fail of the Elvs? (ironical chritic, dont read if....)

Post#2 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Sorry, Nessa, I think the language barrier is coming into play. I wasn't taking issue with your comments in particular
.

yeah I think the same , but I understand you (I think mostly nobody understands me *g*) and when I look at the Writers forum............alles pallettie ( meaning: all right)

I not really disagree , then you cant change your past, and Okay The elves are not Eru! In this way yeah everybody can do mistakes, and Tolkien himself speaks from the fall of the Elves in many situations.

Mostly I remember the Elves not very *well* in the Hobbit. There they are loudly and in one way there are rude to there visitors.

But more and more it comes one thing in my minde.

I know it seams to be OFF-Topic, but read and then tell me *g*.
Okay I am from germany right? (Right) And sometimes , when I tell people I am from germany, you know what say tell me , Hei..Hi... (I am not sure , Is it alloud to write this things out?) Many people think when you say Germany of Hitler, Nazis, Holocoust, Second World War.........I now live with this, then many many people thnink, okay she is from germany.... she is a Nazi, she is the person who did this. It really hurts and I feel really bad when this happens, then we are not the only counrty who did mistakes..... who have Nazis.


now back to the elves..........the elves dont let this thing happen,
Okay they know over her mistakes, but they dont let the mistake of somebody other disturbe there life. They think over the problem, Elrond (some Elves) trys to help to solve the probleme.......nobody try to say something bad about it later on (they woud have discast this hole thing a lot bey himself I think), then they try together to help, they do and they did many fantastic things for the world, they are the teachers of the men. And many other *people* did mistakes.... [u]you only grow with mistakes[/u](it is a sentec in german speech)

I hope somebody understand me.................its hopeless my english is bad........but I hope as well that yopu notice I change my first position
Bey nownn[Editiert am 26/4/2003 von Nessa]

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grondmaster
Posts: 25451

Is'nt a fail of the Elvs? (ironical chritic, dont read if....)

Post#3 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Nessa: I understand your argument. I had to work at it, but your English was good enough for me to see where you were pointing. I can not debate with you, that will probably take someone like Musicimprovedme or Valedhelgwath to do.

I will say however, that you must not blame Elrond for not making Isildur throw The One Ring into the Crack of Doom. Isildur was physically a more powerful being than Elrond. Elrond wasn't really a warrior, he was Gil-galad's standard bearer and an advisor using his wisdom rather than his sword arm in that previous battle in the War of the Ring. With the deaths of Elendil and Gil-galad, Isildur became leader of the coalition and Elrond only an advisor. Leaders often ignore good advice to the detriment of themselves, their people, and the people of the world. :ignore: (I mustn't go there.) :elfbiggrin:

Because Isildur ignored Elrond's advice, Elrond has been slightly bent out of shape at the descendants of Isildur, feeling they are weak willed and only a shadow of their forefathers who were descended from his brother, Elros. Whether this is justified or not, that is the state of things when we meet Elrond.

Next, if we look at The Silmarillion, Feanor, his sons, and his followers (all those who took the oath and never repented), well Tolkien did sort of glorify their martyrdom making them seem more noble than those who weren't the kin-slayers that came to Middle-earth later. And in the end, they never did say they were sorry, they just stiffened their backs, thrust out their chins, and became all the more arrogant.

The Elves in their gullibility, were conned by Sauron who was silver-tongued, just as was Sarumen in the Third Age. Sauron pulled the wool over their eyes, just as Melkor had done in the time leading up to the First Age. Rather than repent for their gullibility, the Elves rightfully blamed the results on Sauron as they had on Melkor before him.

I probably have made some errors here, but I'm sure someone will correct me, and provide a better refutation or agreement to your argument. :elfcool:
'Share and enjoy'

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Allyssa
Posts: 1657

Is'nt a fail of the Elvs? (ironical chritic, dont read if....)

Post#4 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Why didn't Elrond and Cirdan (who was also there, remember!) trip Isildur over the edge and save a lot of lives?

My theory is that it just didn't occur to them. Elves just don't think that way.

And also Isildur was Elrond's distant nephew. I can't blame Elrond for not being able to murder his own kin. And how would they explain Isildur's sudden dissapearence? "He just slipped" would have sounded a bit fishy.

Why didn't Elrond force Isildur to destroy the ring? (by grabbing him and biting his finger off or something)Imagine the political ramifications. Isildur was ensnared by the ring. He would have been enraged if anyone had forced him to destroy it. There would likely have been a war of Elves and Dunedain - not a war that Elrond had much stomach for, I imagine.

No doubt all of these possiblities occured to Elrond as they stood at near the Cracks of Doom - being the good leader and politician that he was - and he realised that there was nothing he could really do to physically stop Isildur taking the ring.nn[Edited on 17/4/2003 by Allyssa]
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valedhelgwath
Posts: 4233

Is'nt a fail of the Elvs? (ironical chritic, dont read if....)

Post#5 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Although they knew Sauron had betrayed them the moment he placed the One Ring upon his finger, and though they also perhaps suspected the Ring was able to control the other rings, at that point in time they perhaps did not fully realise just how evil the ring actually was.

With many magical items, it is not the item that is evil but the person wielding it. The fact the ring had its own personality, and that its existance bound Sauron to Middle Earth, was something they perhaps did not realise at the time of Sauron's defeat. Had Elrond realised the trouble the ring would cause 3000 years later, he may have urged Isildur a little more forcibly to destroy it.

Nessa
Posts: 86

Is'nt a fail of the Elvs? (ironical chritic, dont read if....)

Post#6 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

I understand your argument. I had to work at it, but your English was good enough for me to see where you were pointing.

Okay thats good for me ;-)
Isildur was physically a more powerful being than Elrond. Elrond wasn't really a warrior, he was Gil-galad's standard bearer and an advisor using his wisdom rather than his sword arm in that previous battle in the War of the Ring. With the deaths of Elendil and Gil-galad, Isildur became leader of the coalition and Elrond only an advisor.

I was'nt looking at this point. I mean that Elrond is'nt a real warrior like Isildur and the others, quiet intresting. And in this case I remember that I read a statment from Elrond in which he says: In that moment that Isildurs father died, I stand with Gil-Gald and Cirdan and Isildur stand bey his father. So Yeah, I was'nt looking at the physically point.

My theory is that it just didn't occur to them. Elves just don't think that way.


Mhm maybe ? Yeah I think you show me some interessting things over the Elvs. Its quiet good for me to read yor theory , its good to think.


Had Elrond realised the trouble the ring would cause 3000 years later, he may have urged Isildur a little more forcibly to destroy it.

He didnt know how dangours the ring was?? I think he knew it. Then really, I was reading (new for me) that Elrond and Gil=Galad and the Elves of Lindon didnt *Talk* with Sauron, they didnt really want to deal with him. No when I am not wrong it where the Elves of Lorien, which make a deal with Sauron and he learnt them how to make rings. Isnt right that there where more rings, I mean more then the 9 and the 7 and the 3???

In this way I think
The Elves in their gullibility, were conned by Sauron who was silver-tongued, just as was Sarumen in the Third Age.

but not the High Elves (not in the meaning of the race, in the meaning of wisdom and such things.) Then Galadriel and Celeborn as well know the dangerus of Sauron.


I thank you very much for your time, its very good for me, I was reading more in the books now and thanks to you I opend my mind!!!!
In this way thanks that you try to understand my english ;-) I really know it must be extremly hard!

Nessa

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valedhelgwath
Posts: 4233

Is'nt a fail of the Elvs? (ironical chritic, dont read if....)

Post#7 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Had Elrond realised the trouble the ring would cause 3000 years later, he may have urged Isildur a little more forcibly to destroy it.
He didnt know how dangerous the ring was?? I think he knew it.
What I was trying to point out here, Nessa, was at the end of the Second Age when they had defeated Sauron and had the opportunity to destroy the ring, they did not know the Ring would be a keystone enabling Sauron to return. They had seen Sauron slain with their own eyes and perhaps thought he was gone for good.

When you look objectively at what the ring actually achieved in those 3000 years, apart from enabling Sauron and his Nazgul to return, it was really very little. The main concern was always the potential damage it wouild achieve if Sauron regained it, or if it fell into the hands of someone powerful enough to use its full potential.

I don't think Elrond realised the Ring would bind Sauron to Middle Earth like it did. Had he known back then that by not destroying it Sauron would return, I think he would have insisted Isildur destroy it. Further, I think that if Isildur had been privy to this knowledge at that time, he too would have destroyed it without too much prompting. Sauron had just killed his father. If he knew by keeping the ring, he was allowing Sauron to return, he would have got rid of it.

Yes, they knew it was a dangerous weapon, and yes, Isildur quickly fell under its power, but I don't think he used all of his will power to contest it. He thought he was getting a weapon. Had he known the full truth, I think he would have resisted the temptation long enough to drop it in the fires of Mount Doom.

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raptor
Posts: 205

Is'nt a fail of the Elvs? (ironical chritic, dont read if....)

Post#8 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Next, if we look at The Silmarillion, Feanor, his sons, and his followers (all those who took the oath and never repented), well Tolkien did sort of glorify their martyrdom making them seem more noble than those who weren't the kin-slayers that came to Middle-earth later. And in the end, they never did say they were sorry, they just stiffened their backs, thrust out their chins, and became all the more arrogant.


And,in one or two particular cases,ran off with the Silmarils.As said before,it's not their nature to say 'sorry'.As Firstborn they would consider themselves above all creation,rulers of right of the Earth.

I think you all forget a small point in here.I think it wouldn't have been so easy for anyone to destroy the Ring(if not for the accident at Mt.Doom neither Frodo,nor Sam,not to talk about Gollum would have had the power to simply throw it off the cliff-not in 1000 years!).Elrond and Isildur and the rest were elves and men-Sauron was a MAIAR,and that presumes he had greater power than the other ones-his will was stronger than the will of any elf,man,orc,hobbit etc.Plus,remember the Silmarillion-Sauron,Morgoth's servant,was only slightly lesser than his master in deeds of evil.So I think it would be impossible to throw the ring with your own hand into the Fires,the will of Sauron that was enclosed in the Ring would oppose this act.
On the other hand,I think 5 persons were indeed able to dewstroy the One-but none of them got too close to it(except a certain Gandalf):Saruman,Gandalf,Radagast and the 'blue(s) brothers" :funnylaugh: .For to do such an act would require will above that of the Children of Illuvatar-and those qwould be the Istari.

sepdet
Posts: 64

Is'nt a fail of the Elvs? (ironical chritic, dont read if....)

Post#9 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Here's another thing people tend to forget.

The movie changed several things for dramatic reasons, but it weakened the logic of why the ring wasn't destroyed.

~If you don't know any better, you'd think Elrond was leading all the elves. He's calling the shots (lliterally). Dramatically it's better to get Elrond's face on the screen as soon as possible, and it would be weird to show Elrond in the background as this unimportant figure, then when we next meet him, he's the ruler of Rivendell, a name which even non-Tolkien fans know.

Only book-fans realize Gil-Galad is leading the Elves, and that Elrond is simply his herald. (but also obviously of some importance, because Gil-galad had already appointed Elrond as lord of Imladris). Still, Elrond is not of rank to tell a king what to do: he's just a herald. Cirdan isn't really either: he's just a carpenter! Also a lord of the Havens, of course, but not a king. Besides, whether or not they had postAuthorIDity equal to Isildur's, they did not have the jurisdiction to order him around, any more than Aragorn can give orders to Éomer. He can ask. But he can't dictate.

Admittedly if Elrond knew what was at stake-- that there was some trace of Sauron left as long as the Ring existed-- he should have thumbed his nose at propriety and destroyed the Ring. But I think Valedhelgwath makes the very good point that they thought Sauron was gone forever (and indeed it took a thousand years before there was the tiniest hint to the contrary). A dangerous Ring, without a wielder like Sauron, is a danger, but perhaps not much moreso than a Palantir. Or so they thought.

Also: when One was destroyed, the Three lost their power. Right? Bye-bye Mithlond. (Lórien and Imladris were not yet being guarded by Rings,)

~You must also remember the chaos at that moment. It was a terrible battle with huge losses, the end of a seven-year war. The Men had lost their King, but at least he had heirs. The Elves, however, had just lost their High King, the last heir of Fëanor, Fingon, etc. That's quite a shock. They had to be debating whether to have a new High King or not, or if the time of the Elves was done. Thranduil, of course, was a king now, but a king of a decimated, primitive group of elves with no wish to have any further contact with the Noldor. No one would have accepted him as a High King, nor would he want the job.

Until that moment, the Exiles had always had a High King to unify them, for thousands and thousands of years.

So the elves had other things on their mind. And so did Cirdan and Elrond, the only two (says Tolkien) who saw Isildur take the Ring. Moreover, I wonder if Elrond was steeping in Ring-lore back then; he was younger and did not yet have Vilya. So it was probably up to Cirdan, a lord more used to building ships than making great decisions over the fate of Middle-earth.

~But most importantly, there is a very simple change between books and film that causes this whole problem! Cirdan and Elrond were arguing with Isildur in the spot where Sauron fell. In the book, Isildur refused to follow them to the Cracks of Doom. The only way they could have destroyed the ring was to grab the new King of Men and forceably drag him all the way up the volcano and throw him in.

There were probably a few thousand soldiers of Gondor who'd have a thing or two to say about that!

So in the book it makes sense. In the movie, the director decided to make the scene more dramatic and explain in simple terms where Frodo was headed. It's good to have a mental image rather than a vague "the Cracks of Doom" which is what my mom calls plumbers with pants that hike down.

Er, excuse me. Anyway, the movie makers wanted to show the final goal of Frodo's journey at the very beginning, and didn't see that it opened up the alarming necessity of giving Isildur a firm push.nn[Edited on 4/23/03 by sepdet]

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Allyssa
Posts: 1657

Is'nt a fail of the Elvs? (ironical chritic, dont read if....)

Post#10 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Elrond, son of Earendel, could have theoretically taken the role of High King. It normally passed to the eldest male of the royal house. I seem to recall reading that elves do not normally allow women to rule (have to get back to you on that one).

Elrond is also some sort of 'adopted' heir of Gil Galad, as we see by Gil Galad setting him up as Vice-regent and giving him Vilya when he died.

Elrond does not seem to be interested in such titles, however, and perhaps as Grondy said, there was no longer any real need for a High King.
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