Elf child elf teen

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Amarië
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Elf child elf teen

Post#1 » Mon May 24, 2004 3:36 pm

I have been wondering when elves grow up. Elwing was only about 25 years old when she and Earendil got married, but I also read somewhere that elves didn't mature untill they were about 3000 years.

I am sure all of us have had our thoughts about this, what do you think? When do elves grow up?
"Don't complain under the stars
about the lack of bright spots in you life."
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Cano_Yavanna
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Post#2 » Mon May 24, 2004 3:47 pm

That is a really thought provoking question. Just in my moments thinking about it, I would have to say that, in my opinion, elves might have longer mid-life spans. Their lives aren't drawn out like, say, this many elven years is equal to this many human years. I think that the Light of the Eldar keeps them at their height, their ripness, so they can enjoy life extensively in their prime.

Ok, the theory has holes, but it is the best I can come up with. It adds to the appeal of being elven also, don't you think?

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I Eldar ná i anvanya.

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virumor
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Post#3 » Mon May 24, 2004 4:52 pm

I remember reading somewhere that when an elf is 50 years old, that they're adolescents... not sure where i read that, though. I probably picked this up when reading some cheesy, Tolkien/Legolamb-related fantasy story so this is probably incorrect.

I don't know about Elwing's age, but at the point she married Eärendil there was the problem whether she was Elf or Man (same with Eärendil) ... i seem to remember though that Lúthien was around 500 years old when she met Beren. Hmm, i also seem to remember reading in a Tolkien essay that most elves are at their 'marital' age when they're 1000 years old.

Anyway, what's 'old' for an elf? i don't think elves even use that word (at least not for their kin). Anyway, it could be that 3000 years old is the age at which elves are considered fully adult. I remember Elrond saying to Aragorn that Arwen was just a young tree or something (while comparing her age with Aragorn, not literally of course -- Arwen was not THAT entic), so not yet fully adult at that point. (although Arwen was 2710 years old at that moment)

Furthermore, Arwen was the Evenstar of her people ---which to me means that she was the LAST elf born in Middle-Earth in 241 III (Lúthien was the FIRST elf born in Middle-Earth, so she was called the Morningstar of her people) --- and when she met Aragorn she was 2710 years old... so Amarië could be right by putting the year 3000 on 'adult' as Elrond seems to point out that Arwen isn't yet fully adult, even though she's 2710 in the year she meets Aragorn.

So it looks like Aragorn married a giggly, puberal Elf teen..... probably Legolamb posters everywhere in the Queen's room in Minas Tirith! Nice going, Telcontar.
Give up the Halfring, she-elf...

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valedhelgwath
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Post#4 » Tue May 25, 2004 2:28 pm

Interesting question, Amarie. The answer lies in Morgoth's Ring under the section, Laws and Customs of the Eldar.

From Morgoth's Ring

The Eldar grew in bodily form slower than Men, but in mind more swiftly. They learned to speak before they were one year old;and in the same time they learned to walk and to dance, for their wills came soon to the mastery of their bodies. Nonetheless there was less difference between the two kindreds, Elves and Men, in early youth; and a man who watched elf-children at play might well have believed that they were the children of Man, of some fair and happy people. For in their early days elf-children delighted still in the world about them, and the fire of their spirit had not consumed them, and the burden of memory was still light upon them.

This same watcher might indeed have wondered at the small limbs and stature of these children, judging their age by their skill in words and grace in motion. For at the end of their third year mortal children began to outstrip the Elves, hastening on to a full stature while the Elves lingered in the first spring of childhood. Children of Men might reach their full height while Eldar of the same age were still in body like to mortals of no more than seven years. Not until the fiftieth year did the Eldar attain the stature and shape in which their lives would pass before they were full-grown.


As Virumor correctly suggested, then, Elves reach adulthood at about fifty.

Morgoth's Ring goes on to say...

The Eldar wedded for the most part in their youth and soon after their fiftieth year.....

.... Marriage, save for rare ill chances or strange fates, was the natural course of life for all Eldar. It took place in this way. Those who would afterwards become wedded might choose one another early in youth, even as children (and indeed this happened often in the days of peace); but unless they desired soon to be married and were of a fitting age, the betrothal awaited the judgement of the parents of either party.

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Amarië
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Elf child elf teen

Post#5 » Tue May 25, 2004 2:48 pm

Furthermore, Arwen was the Evenstar of her people ---which to me means that she was the LAST elf born in Middle-Earth in 241 III (Lúthien was the FIRST elf born in Middle-Earth, so she was called the Morningstar of her people)
Wow, once again you point out something that is really obvious once you think about it, but that I'd never have thought of on my own. I just thought they callled her Evenstar 'cause she was pretty and had that jewel. I need to read more Tolkien.. ;)

Elwing and Earendil being 'undefined' in race would explain how they don't fit in the the age thing. 25 is normal human age to get married don't you think? Maybe they were humans untill proven otherwise. ;)

I can't picture Arwen as a giggling teenager (though that is what she was treated like in PJs movies), I was thinking she was in her twenties. But if they are adults at 50...

When are you an adult anyway? At 18? What present-day age would 50 elf years be?
"Don't complain under the stars

about the lack of bright spots in you life."

Henrik Wergeland, Norwegian writer

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Etharion
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Post#6 » Tue May 25, 2004 3:06 pm

Now thats a scary thought. I to dont understand how was there so little elf children if they married so young (for elves). Maybe they just lost intrest in.......you know.

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Amarië
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Elf child elf teen

Post#7 » Tue May 25, 2004 3:08 pm

But the house of Finwë safe in Valinor while ME is filled with evil creatures and spirits and things change so fast from a elfs point of view, they could have waited for better and safer times. They are suppose to live forever, some 1000 years doesn't make much difference then. I am sure the elves in Valinor are quite numerous.
"Don't complain under the stars

about the lack of bright spots in you life."

Henrik Wergeland, Norwegian writer

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virumor
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Elf child elf teen

Post#8 » Tue May 25, 2004 3:09 pm

Marriage, save for rare ill chances or strange fates, was the natural course of life for all Eldar. It took place in this way. Those who would afterwards become wedded might choose one another early in youth, even as children (and indeed this happened often in the days of peace); but unless they desired soon to be married and were of a fitting age, the betrothal awaited the judgement of the parents of either party.

Strange though, if marriage is the natural course of life for Elves, that at the end of the third age there were so few Elves... and it's not that most Elves went into the West. Maybe Elves wait around 1000 years before they have kids... or Elvish women are pregnant for over 1000 years... heh

but unless they desired soon to be married and were of a fitting age, the betrothal awaited the judgement of the parents of either party.

So because Arwen was 2710 years old at the point she met Aragorn, which is a fitting age in my opinion, at least very adult, then this means that Arwen didn't need Elrond's approval to marry an ELF. Moreover, i feel that Arwen didn't need anyone's approval to marry ANYONE at that point, so yes including Aragorn, as it is mentioned she just 'made her choice' when she met Aragorn when the latter was 49 in 2980 III.

Furthermore, in the BOOKS she is very fast to reject the Shadow and decline the Dusk, even though she loved her father dearly. So bye bye daddy.

So Elrond's speech to Aragorn is mostly just out of selfishness, to put it harshly. He didn't want to lose his beloved daughter to Aragorn. (so the movies got it wrong again. what a surprise. Arwen didn't need evil daddy's approval).

I'm not yet sure if it's usual for Elves to marry at a 'young' age, as soon as they reach 50 years. Maybe it's unusual for Elves to marry when they're over 1000-2000-3000. I dunno.

I still find it strange that so many Elves get married, but still there are so few Elves in Middle-Earth... i don't think that many Elvish marriages stay childless.... well the only reference we have is about the house of Finwë, considering Elvish marriages : that House produced lots of kids!! But if it is representative for all Elves, no idea.

What present-day age would 50 elf years be?

When Elves are 50, they appear like adult men. So at that age, they seem to be physically adult. Whether they are also mentally adult, is another question!! Just like with humans, perhaps some Elves never grow up.

I have a quote about this, from Samwise Gamgee :

"And Elves, sir! Elves here, and Elves there! Some like kings, terrible and splendid; and some as merry as children. And the music and the singing-not that I have had the time or the heart for much listening since we got here. But I'm getting to know some of the ways of the place.'"

So it seems that some Elves, even though they are perhaps 2000-3000, are indeed very childish and giggly... Lindir, anyone?
Give up the Halfring, she-elf...

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virumor
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Elf child elf teen

Post#9 » Tue May 25, 2004 5:26 pm

Well dunno...

a lot of Elves took a hike and left Middle-Earth for Valinor, anyway, perhaps with wife and kiddies...

Middle-Earth was emptied, and Valinor was filled... the only ones remaining were some High Elves who wanted to stay until the bitter end, and some Silvan Elves, who never really cared what happened outside their small, secluded realm... Lóthlorien and the Woodland realm i mean... well at least Lóthlorien was protected well enough so NO evil could come in there safe if Sauron himself would come... which he wouldn't do, considered the fact that he is a HUGE EYEBALL(hahahahaha, sure PJ hahaha -- heh).

I also think the Woodland realm was well enough protected... at least they always managed to keep the forces of Dol Guldur outside their realm. Of course, Thranduil does not have a Ring (he has a Bracelet).

Anyway what i was trying to say, as most of the Third Age ---for like 3018 years--- Sauron never openly did something 'evil' against Elves, safe for the Battle of the Five Armies, and as Elfies were good enough protected and only bothered with their own lands and customs, they had pretty calm lives, so i can not really see a reason for not having an Elvish baby boom.... i mean the Evenstar of their ppl --the last Elf born in ME-- was born in 241 III, and after that no new Elfies born?!?! Heh, even the Dwarves score better than that!

I find that hard to believe, as Sauron didn't do anything and the only evil Elves experienced was an occasional orc attack in the Redhorn Pass (awww, poor Celebrían) until 2941 III. Of course there would be marriages here and there (sorry lasses, even Legolamb is married!!! :p :p) so why not have kids either? Heh, all was calm and if there would be turmoil, the lil family could take a hike to Virumor... err Valinor.

Maybe Elves just don't like consuming their marriages... heh.
Give up the Halfring, she-elf...

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grondmaster
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Elf child elf teen

Post#10 » Tue May 25, 2004 5:41 pm

I think the Elves were just conservationists and chose not to over-populate Middle-earth.

Luthien was the first Elf born in Middle-earth? So she was older than both Feänor and Eärwen? Is that documented some where, possibly in The Lays of Beleriand?
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