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Post#1 » Mon Oct 11, 2004 12:12 pm

I was just re-reading the paragraph in ROTK about Saruman's death...

....about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing.

Saruman, like Gandalf, was a Maia but his spirit did not return to Valinor or the halls of Mandos - he just dissipated and *poof* gone. Is this correct? Gandalf, when he died in Moria, returned to Valinor and was sent back. Does this mean that Saruman was unredeemable? Was it a conscious decision by the Valar to deny his return to Valinor?

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Post#2 » Mon Oct 11, 2004 12:29 pm

Saruman was sent to help and protect, but insted he lied, killed, abused his powers and wanted more power. If he had gotten it his way, he would have taken Saurons place. Sauron was also a maia who turned evil. The difference is that Saruman was stopped 'early' while Sauron served under Morgoth himself and took over after him. No mercy for Sauron and no mercy for Saruman.
"Don't complain under the stars
about the lack of bright spots in you life."
Henrik Wergeland, Norwegian writer

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Post#3 » Mon Oct 11, 2004 12:59 pm

I agree with Amarie. I think that poof of wind was a clear message from Manwe (who controlled the winds). You ain't coming back here!

The Valar were quite unforgiving at times. Look how long it was before they let the Noldor return.

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Post#4 » Mon Oct 11, 2004 4:45 pm

Yes, that cold wind from Valinor was symbolic of their giving Saruman the 'cold-shoulder'. "You blew it man, so now we're blowing you off! Bye bye!"" :boom:
'Share and enjoy'

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Post#5 » Wed Oct 13, 2004 5:36 pm

I think Saruman got the same ban as Sauron... Though I'm not sure if they were sent into Void or just left to wander, shadows of malice and nothing more!
Evil may yet be good to have been ... and yet remain evil. (Silmarillion)

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Post#6 » Wed Oct 13, 2004 6:11 pm

Yeah. If he didn't go to Valinor, or Mandos, then where? Perhaps he just DIED and didn't exist at all in any way anymore.

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Post#7 » Wed Oct 13, 2004 6:24 pm

I'm not sure about this, but I read somewhere that Tolkien had just begun on writing on another war, something like rise of another Dark Lord in the fourth age. But never really got going with it. Maybe he had used these two. I'm not sure. Just a guess.

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Post#8 » Wed Oct 13, 2004 9:44 pm

I agree with Grondmaster. The cold wind was symbolic of the West rejecting Saruman. And the grey mist makes me think it was a demotion of sorts, to grey. Anyhow, he sure had more chances than most to repent. :dead:

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Post#9 » Thu Oct 14, 2004 7:58 am

Like Sauron, Saruman just became a powerless spirit, a shadow. He probably remained floating around Middle-Earth for ever. Saruman the grumpy Thundercloud.

An other possibility of course, is that he was thrown into the Void. But if that was the case, i believe it would have been mentioned somewhere by JRRT.
Give up the Halfring, she-elf...

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Post#10 » Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:44 am

In any case, Saruman's powers were gone and he (like Sauron) was reduced to a weak, helpless spirit. And I agree that the breath of wind was a sign from the Valar of their refusal to accept him after what he had done.
I will never raise the white flag.

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