Ents&RoleinWarfor MiddleEarth

rayne
Posts: 6

Ents&RoleinWarfor MiddleEarth

Post#1 » Tue Oct 26, 2004 3:33 pm

I am doing a research paper on the The Ents and their role in the war for Middle Earth. My thesis is that without the Ents and the fact that they took Saruman out of the picture, Sauron would have been victorious. Any thoughts for anyone? Any where I can find anything on this?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
R

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Vee
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Ents&RoleinWarfor MiddleEarth

Post#2 » Tue Oct 26, 2004 5:27 pm

Ents or not Saruman was still defeated at Helms Deep. He would have been difficult to defeat completely without the Ents but would it have been impossible?

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eruwen
Posts: 1277

Ents&RoleinWarfor MiddleEarth

Post#3 » Tue Oct 26, 2004 6:02 pm

Ooo…that’s a tough one Rayne. I agree, Vee…very difficult to prove that Sauron would have been victorious. It may be inferred, considering the way the Battle at Helm’s Deep was going, but I don’t know if you can actually prove it. Basically, you’re saying that if Saruman wasn’t defeated, Frodo never would have made it to Mt. Doom and Aragorn would never have taken up the role of King. I don’t think this is necessarily true.

Also, it was a gift to Sauron in a way that Saruman was taken out of the battle, for Saruman was vying for Sauron’s power anyway. Perhaps your thesis should be "Since the Ents defeated Saruman, the Men of Middle Earth were able to unite rather than existing and working as broken factions, which improved their chances of defeating Sauron…" or something like that.

Be sure to look for clues of the Ent’s motivations in the text, why it took them so long to react and when they did, why they did.

Project Muse and JSTOR are great databases for research articles if you have access to them.

i aran
Posts: 80

Ents&RoleinWarfor MiddleEarth

Post#4 » Tue Oct 26, 2004 10:02 pm

Its an interesting topic, but I think I agree with Rayne. With the Ents help, Saruman was easily defeated, putting an end to what would be detterents against Frodo and the fight for justice. I think that if Saruman and his forces prospored on, the men would not be as unified, because of different mission needing to be done, and Saruman would have aided Sauron, for it is highly unlikely in my opinion that Saruman could have done anything on his own to tak eover Sauron's power.

Although Tolkien had many influences for TLOTR, and many better and more profound than this, Tolkien's service in World War I had a large effect on the battle and war parts of the story. I think Tolkien might have been symbolizing America in WW1 with the Ents. America was skeptical about going into the war because they did not want to get involved for their own peace, but after they saw what needed to be done through certain turn of events, the joined the allied forces, which undoubtedbly helped defeat the German and Austria-Hungarian forces. This example of Tolkien's life is a simple parallel to the Ent's role in the War of the Ring. Consider using this analogy in your paper - Good luck!

loni
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Ents&RoleinWarfor MiddleEarth

Post#5 » Tue Oct 26, 2004 10:42 pm

I agree with Rayne. I reckon if Saruman hadn't been utterly destroyed (well, not him, but his forces) then Minas Tirith would not have triumphed on the Fields of Pelennor. How could they, with Sauron's army and Saruman's from opposite sides? Even though the Riders wiped out loads at Helms Deep.

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eruwen
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Ents&RoleinWarfor MiddleEarth

Post#6 » Wed Oct 27, 2004 12:34 am

Of course I agree that without Saruman's defeat it is unlikely that Sauron would have been defeated...and that the Ents had a pivotal role in this development, but the aforementioned portion cannot be proved. An essay thesis should be stated to the extent one can prove it...if it is stated as a definite "if/then" topic, then one should be able to defend it at all costs; if it were modified to be more speculative, then one could prove it with their own inferences.

Anyway, these are my humblest of humble opinions and all in all, be sure to write on and about what your heart tells you to, Rayne (whilst considering feedback of course! :D

Nice tie in to WWI, I aran. I'm going to look into that more. I heard something along those lines before....makes sense.

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virumor
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Ents&RoleinWarfor MiddleEarth

Post#7 » Wed Oct 27, 2004 11:20 am

I agree with Rayne. I reckon if Saruman hadn't been utterly destroyed (well, not him, but his forces) then Minas Tirith would not have triumphed on the Fields of Pelennor. How could they, with Sauron's army and Saruman's from opposite sides? Even though the Riders wiped out loads at Helms Deep.

Theoden's army destroyed Saruman's forces at Helm's Deep. The only thing the Ents did was isolate Saruman. Even if the Ents weren't there, Saruman would still have lost his army. But he would have been safe in Isengard with the Palantir. Still, he wouldn't be able to go anywhere as Theoden would probably leave some of his troops around Isengard to prevent Saruman from fleeing.

Of course, one can argue that it wouldn't be possible for Aragorn to look into the Palantir and take the Paths of the Dead. But it is likely that Theoden's army would conquer Isengard : Gandalf the White would be able to break the walls of Isengard and Theoden's army would swarm in, and we would get a repeat of the Voice of Saruman chapter of LOTR, and Pippin would grab the Palantir. The palantir is a critical object : Pippin looked into it, and Sauron was decieved. Also Aragorn used it to show himself to Sauron and as such cause the battle of the Pelennor fields... it's hard to say if the Palantir didn't fall in the hands of Gandalf and Co, what would have happened. Sauron wouldn't have attacked MT so early, probably. We don't know what Aragorn would have done, take the paths of the dead or go with Gandalf to MT and claim his kingship. The result of the battle of the pelennor fields would be the same, probably, because Theoden still had his cavalry. After their victory : the march to the Morannon to distract the Eye. Hence : the end result is the same ---> Sauron defeated.

So anyway, with or without the Ents, Theoden would still have his cavalry to go to Pelennor fields and turn the tide there. One must keep in mind that Sauron cannot be defeated by arms anyway, only by destroying the Ring. The Pelennor fields and the battle at the Morannon gave Frodo the time he needed to complete his task. Saruman would only have the possibility to influence this string of events if he had his Palantir : he could use it to warn Sauron or at least give Sauron vital information which could prevent Frodo's mission from succeeding. But Sauron would still think that the Ring would go to Minas Tirith, so i am inclined to think that Frodo still'd have a chance to destroy the Ring. But this scenario is doubtful of course : after Helm's Deep, Gandalf would be wanting to deal with Saruman, so Isengard would have to be taken.

In fact, don't forget that Gandalf also showed himself in Fangorn and spoke to Treebeard, and Gandalf knew what happened to Pippin and Merry. Gandalf probably foresaw the Ents to enter the attack and break Isengard. So it is a bit hard to imagine having no Ents involved. Gandalf had it all worked out.

The Ents just made the taking of Isengard look easy, and as such came in very handy. Human forces would need more time and work, and they didn't have time for that, as MT was about to be attacked. But it is important to see that only if Frodo fails his mission, then Sauron will not be defeated. Even if the entire Middle-Earth falls under Sauron's red-eye banner, but Frodo manages to throw the Ring into the Orodruin, then Sauron is defeated (although this victory over Sauron would be very Pyrrhic...).

Although Tolkien had many influences for TLOTR, and many better and more profound than this, Tolkien's service in World War I had a large effect on the battle and war parts of the story. I think Tolkien might have been symbolizing America in WW1 with the Ents. America was skeptical about going into the war because they did not want to get involved for their own peace, but after they saw what needed to be done through certain turn of events, the joined the allied forces, which undoubtedbly helped defeat the German and Austria-Hungarian forces.

Some elements of the story he based on his (very short) war experience, like Samwise Gamgee, the Death Marches, but in the introductory to LOTR i believe JRRT himself says the world wars did not influence the story itself. JRRT himself wrote he loathed allegory. It is very easy to compare LOTR with WW1, even easier to compare with WW2, of course, but as i see it after reading the introductory, i believe JRRT only incorporated personal experiences of the war in his books, not politics or history.

I believe with the attack of the Ents on Isengard, JRRT was referring to nature striking back at technology. JRRT saw the place where he grew up being thwarted by technology, nature being replaced by technology. Maybe with the attack of the Ents on Isengard, JRRT was showing how much he disliked the fact that there was no more place for nature in England, that he made nature take revenge on technology.
Give up the Halfring, she-elf...

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eruwen
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Ents&RoleinWarfor MiddleEarth

Post#8 » Wed Oct 27, 2004 11:37 am

Yes, WWII, WWII. Of course, the thesis the way it is stated is just like saying Germany would have won the war if the US never entered -- this can be argued either way (probably depending on what country you are from).

And yes, I completely agree that Tolkien was making several environmental statements throughout LOTR, and the Ents were a part of that statement…especially when taken into consideration with Saruman’s technological advancement at the expense of trees, the Ents' friends, being ripped out by their roots. :(

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eruwen
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Ents&RoleinWarfor MiddleEarth

Post#9 » Wed Oct 27, 2004 11:43 am

Theoden's army destroyed Saruman's forces at Helm's Deep. The only thing the Ents did was isolate Saruman. Even if the Ents weren't there, Saruman would still have lost his army. But he would have been safe in Isengard with the Palantir. Still, he wouldn't be able to go anywhere as Theoden would probably leave some of his troops around Isengard to prevent Saruman from fleeing.


...of course, we must admit that there is a rather mystical quality to the fact that once Saruman's focus was moved from Helm's Deep to his own fortress, and once Isengard was destroyed, the tides turned for Theoden's men.

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grondmaster
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Ents&RoleinWarfor MiddleEarth

Post#10 » Wed Oct 27, 2004 4:45 pm

Theoden's army destroyed Saruman's forces at Helm's Deep. The only thing the Ents did was isolate Saruman. Even if the Ents weren't there, Saruman would still have lost his army. ...
...
So anyway, with or without the Ents, Theoden would still have his cavalry to go to Pelennor fields and turn the tide there.
I violently disagree!—I wonder if someone has been watching too much of the movie and has forgotten what's actually written in the book. :elfwink:

If you remember, Theoden thought the jig was up and only rode out to make his last-ditch-stand a-horse-back afore Saruman's insurmountable force, because they had separated the keep from the caves where the food and fodder was stored. With the blasting fire it was only a matter of time before the keep would fall and he'd rather go out in a blaze of glory rather than be caught like an animal in a trap.
'The end will not be long,' said the king. 'But I will not end here, taken like an old badger in a trap. Snowmane and Hasufel and the horses of my guard are in the inner court. When dawn comes, I will bid men sound Helm's horn, and I will ride forth. Will you ride with me then, son of Arathorn? Maybe we shall cleave a road, or make such an end as will be worth a song—if any be left to sing of us herafter.' - from near the end of 'Helm's Deep', Chapter 7, Book III, TTT.
Only Aragorn remembered to look for Galdalf that morning and had not Gandalf requested that Treebeard send Ents and their Hourn to the Battle, it would have been lost. Not even Erkenbrand's regathered force could have saved them.

Thus there would have been no cavalry charge at the Pelennor Fields to keep the Nazgul Witch-king from the final show-down with Gandalf at Minas Tirith's broken gate, and the Black Fleet would have been manned by the Corsairs of Umbar instead of Aragorn's force of Dunedain, South Gondorians and liberated slave rowers, as well as your Elven princeling and his stout-hearted Dwarven warrior friend. There would have been nothing to draw Sauron's eye out of Mordor; Frodo and Sam wouldn't have made it to Mt. Doom relatively unhindered as they did.

The Ents were a major part of Eru's Plan. Without the Ents, Frodo and Sam would have been caught and Sauron would have regained the Ring. :teacher:
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