Mortality Question

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aldaradan
Posts: 107

Mortality Question

Post#1 » Wed Aug 23, 2006 12:51 pm

My question is this:

(My question assumes that the child of a elf/man union is mortal, because Eldarion was mortal and he was the son of Aragorn, a Man, and Arwen, an Elf.)

Why should Elrond and Elros be offered a chance to choose between Mortality and Immortality?
According to the assumption above, the are not half-elves, but just plain men, as are their parents, Earendil and Elwing.


This is why:

Earendil is of the race of men because he was the son of a Elf/Man union, Tuor (man) and Idrial (Elf)

Elwing is of the race of men because: Beren and Luthien (elf/man union) have a son, Dior, who, according to the assumption, is a mortal. He weds Nimloth (elf) and again, according to the assumption, their daughter Elwing should be mortal.

Therefore, if both Earendil and Elwing are mortal, how can their sons be half-elves?

Though I am not sure, I believe the key to this puzzle lies in Dior, because I have not read anywhere that Dior/Nimloth was an elf/man union, and that in fact there were only three unions: Arwen/Aragorn, Earendil/Elwing, and Beren/Luthien. Yet how can Dior be Immortal when he is a son of one of these unions?

This is the predicament. Maybe the answer is plainly described and I have overlooked it. Can anyone help?

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Amarië
Posts: 2785

Mortality Question

Post#2 » Wed Aug 23, 2006 3:08 pm

Ahhh, but you forget that Luthien dies as an elf and returnes as a mortal. And Dior is
born after they are sent back to life. So he is indeed a man, not an half-elf. :)
"Don't complain under the stars
about the lack of bright spots in you life."
Henrik Wergeland, Norwegian writer

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aldaradan
Posts: 107

Mortality Question

Post#3 » Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:06 pm

So if Dior is a mortal man then the question still stands... Shouldn't Elwing be a mortal? Thus meaning that Elrond and Elros should not have been given the choice?

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virumor
Posts: 3567

Mortality Question

Post#4 » Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:43 pm

(My question assumes that the child of a elf/man union is mortal, because Eldarion was mortal and he was the son of Aragorn, a Man, and Arwen, an Elf.)

Arwen became mortal after her father had left Middle-earth. Hence, Eldarion was the son of two mortals and your assumption should be directed to the dustbin.

Arwen wasn't an Elf either, she was Half-Elven, meaning she could still choose to be counted amongst Men, which indeed happened when she chose to live with Aragorn.

Until the Valar didn't decree that Eärendil & Elwing + their offspring, Elrond & Elros, could choose for themselves among which race they'd be counted, it was simply unknown whether they were mortal or immortal.

You might also dive in this thread : Why was Dior immortal?
Give up the Halfring, she-elf...

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Vee
Posts: 2711

Mortality Question

Post#5 » Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:38 pm

Seems like the half-elven have an unfair advantage. Arwen's life-span was somewhat longer than Aragorn's so all they have to do is wait until they are fed up with immortality before deciding to be mortal. Is there a cut-off point for deciding, such as a) the leaving of one's half-elven parent from ME or b) committment such as marriage? Could Arwen have married Aragorn without making that decision, thus allowing her offspring to make their own choice?

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Amarië
Posts: 2785

Mortality Question

Post#6 » Thu Aug 24, 2006 6:13 am

Could Arwen have married Aragorn without making that decision, thus allowing her offspring to make their own choice?

I suppose she could, but then she and Aragorn would be seperated forever when Aragorn dies. And their children would have to choose which parent they most likely would never ever see again. And it would have made a lousy love story. “Oh I love you, Aragorn, spend the rest of your life with me! It will only be about 1/3000 of a second of my life, and then we will be seperated for ever. But we elves have a good memory so I’m pretty sure I won’t forget you! What do you say, hunnybunny?”

so all they have to do is wait until they are fed up with immortality before deciding to be mortal.

This is not too different to what the kings of old did, before Morgoth came and convinced men that death was not a gift of men, but a curse. They lived their lives and when they felt their time was up, they said “good bye, see you later” and layed down peacefully and died. As Aragorn did.

Personally I believe that Arwen would have died as a human even if Aragorn had died in the battle against Sauron. I think her choise was basicly taken when she fell in love with him. But that is just a guess on my part.
"Don't complain under the stars

about the lack of bright spots in you life."

Henrik Wergeland, Norwegian writer

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virumor
Posts: 3567

Mortality Question

Post#7 » Thu Aug 24, 2006 6:19 am

Personally I believe that Arwen would have died as a human even if Aragorn had died in the battle against Sauron. I think her choise was basicly taken when she fell in love with him. But that is just a guess on my part.

What? You think she wouldn't have married Legolas? :rolleyes:

Arwen's life-span was somewhat longer than Aragorn's so all they have to do is wait until they are fed up with immortality before deciding to be mortal

It didn't work that way... Aragorn wanted her to 'decline the dusk', if she wanted to be faithful to him, meaning that she had to choose mortality if she'd want to marry him. He didn't want any cheap tricks. See Appendices.
Give up the Halfring, she-elf...

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Vee
Posts: 2711

Mortality Question

Post#8 » Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:48 am

What can I say? My tongue got firmly stuck in my cheek.

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aldaradan
Posts: 107

Mortality Question

Post#9 » Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:56 am

I checked out the "Why was Dior Immortal" thread and the question was never fully answered.

One side of the argument states that Dior was mortal because he was the son of two mortals, and Manwe says that anyone with mortal blood is mortal.

Another side states that Dior was immortal because Tolkien writes from The Book of Lost Tales, Vol 2: The Nauglafring:

Now fare the long days of Elfinesse unto that time when Tuor dwelt in Gondolin: and children then had Dior the Elf, ...

Not to mention my argument that Dior/Nimloth was never stated as an elf/man relationship.

And yet another side states that Dior was a half-elf because he himself says:

I am the first of the Peredhil (Half-Elven) but I am also heir of King Elwe, the Eluchil

(Also, in the Encyclopedia of Arda Dior is acknowledged as a half-elf)


Which argument, then, is correct?

User avatar
virumor
Posts: 3567

Mortality Question

Post#10 » Thu Aug 24, 2006 5:02 pm

Another side states that Dior was immortal because Tolkien writes from The Book of Lost Tales, Vol 2: The Nauglafring:

Quote:

Now fare the long days of Elfinesse unto that time when Tuor dwelt in Gondolin: and children then had Dior the Elf, ...

You shouldn't pay much attention to what's in HoME, because it often contains material which goes linea recta against what's in the Silmarillion or UT... in the Silmarillion Dior is the son of Beren & Lúthien; Eärendil is Tuor's son.

Which argument, then, is correct?

Since there is really no conclusive answer : all of them.
Give up the Halfring, she-elf...

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