Entirely Evil?

rose_gardner
Posts: 8

Entirely Evil?

Post#1 » Sat Aug 09, 2008 2:04 am

Hello, I've looked, but I could not find a thread of a similar topic.
After reading the books, and having numerous encounters with some of Tolkien's less than savory characters, I sometimes wonder if ALL of them are entirely evil. The theme of redemption has always seemed prevelent in the books, (to me, at least) whether it be Frodo's redemption even after his supposed failure, Boromir's redemption after his attempt to steal the ring, Gollum redeeming himself by actually destroying the ring, or even Saruman's possible redemption when freed from his tower. Goodness, even Lobelia Sackville-Baggins had some small redemption at the end of the third book. It seems that Tolkien earnestly supports the redemption of those who fell from good to evil, but is it possible that some of the villains could become good? This is rather odd question, as many of the evil characters are accepted as completely evil, especially the orcs. If orcs were saved from the evil of Sauron's captivity, could one show them to be good, or would they still be completely twisted? If Orcs were originally created from mutilated Elves, could some spark of good be left in them, or are they really twisted and corrupted beyond the chance of redemption, doomed to be forever cold killing machines? It seemed that the orcs had the ability to think on there own. Could it be even possible that some could be born with some small good inside them? Also, were they all wiped out after Saurons downfall. Out of his power could some of them have turned neutral or even good if they were not killed by men? Has anyone else questioned this as well? Thanks.

rose_gardner
Posts: 8

Entirely Evil?

Post#2 » Sat Aug 09, 2008 2:15 am

Also, I'm so sorry, but this thread posted twice, accidentaly. I tried to delete it to get out of the way, but it just left an empty thread. I'm sorry it double posted, and I most certainly did not want to fill the thread list with my silly inquisitiveness. If one of the mods or anyone else could help me delete that empty thread, I would be most thankful.

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Thorin Oakenshield
Posts: 4593

Entirely Evil?

Post#3 » Sat Aug 09, 2008 4:07 am

Orcs really are a riddle. In a way as said in the Sil, I think, they hated Melkor whom they blamed for their misery (i.e being hated and fought against by most of the people of ME) but yet they served him and as said in the LOTR. Frodo mentions to Sam that if they saw us they would forget their quarrels and deal with them.

That hardly seems to show any good intent on their part and it seems that their hatred for the other folks are greater than their hatred for their Lords. Indeed it may be that their envy for the beauty and the wisdom of the Quendi fills them with hatred because they themselves originated from the Elves and their current state is due to the "slow arts of cruelty" that Melkor used.

In any case although they are descended from the Elves one should not forget that they also have part of the evil and malice of Melkor in them. I am saying this because somewhere in the Sil it is mentioned that Melkor lost most of his powers through his creatures that he brought forward.

And thus if we take into consideration that they have part of Melkor in them and if we're trying to judge whether they any goodness in them then we should ask also whether Melkor has any thing good in him?
The Old that is Strong does not Wither.

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grondmaster
Posts: 25451

Entirely Evil?

Post#4 » Sun Aug 10, 2008 4:33 pm

This is probably the old tug-of-war between "Nature" vs "Nuture". I am sure that if one were to find a baby Orc; separate it from its fellow Orcs; and place it within a loving non-orc family, it would grow up to become a model citizen. That is, until the neighbors and authorities let their prejudices undermine all the hard work of the adoptive parents.

Human cultures all have their prejudices, making it nigh on impossible to set those things right, which were wrong in the past. But we can still hope; and nothing will change if we never try. :teacher:
'Share and enjoy'

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Thorin Oakenshield
Posts: 4593

Entirely Evil?

Post#5 » Sun Aug 10, 2008 9:33 pm

Ok. Maybe you could be the first foster parent of an orc Grondy and then tell us how your experiment is going? :elkgrin: :orcgin:
The Old that is Strong does not Wither.

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virumor
Posts: 3567

Entirely Evil?

Post#6 » Mon Aug 11, 2008 12:29 am

The dark side can never completely claim one. There is always the chance of redemption, since in the beginning nothing was evil.
Give up the Halfring, she-elf...

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Thorin Oakenshield
Posts: 4593

Entirely Evil?

Post#7 » Mon Aug 11, 2008 9:20 am

There is always the chance of redemption, since in the beginning nothing was evil.


I think that the chance of redemption exists only in the beginning since once you have passed the point of no return their is no going back, e.g, Sauron, Melkor.
The Old that is Strong does not Wither.

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grondmaster
Posts: 25451

Entirely Evil?

Post#8 » Mon Aug 11, 2008 4:28 pm

I think that the chance of redemption exists only in the beginning since once you have passed the point of no return their is no going back, e.g, Sauron, Melkor.

So that means Eru-Iluvatar and Manwë would say:
Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.
Or 'That's once! (Like: 'Thats strike one; and it only takes two strikes to be out, rather than the biblical "seven times seven".')
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virumor
Posts: 3567

Entirely Evil?

Post#9 » Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:44 am

That is a preposterous thought. Forgiveness is the gift of Gods. The Valar know the power of redemption - note that Ossë had once joined Melkor to escape the clutches of his dominant wife, but was redeemed; note that Sauron was almost redeemed when he witnessed how his lord was utterly defeated and humiliated; note how Galadriel ultimately repented for her folly and her six thousand year reign of terror over Laurelindorenán.

Even Morgoth would have repented if Nienna would have had the chance to spend some time alone with him, but alas! she had to bend her will to her Lady, Varda, who had not forgotten how Melkor had brutishly courted her before Arda was made and finally had the opportunity for revenge.
Give up the Halfring, she-elf...

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grondmaster
Posts: 25451

Entirely Evil?

Post#10 » Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:00 pm

Virumor is correct in his above post, i forgot to add the sarcastic :wink: smilie.
'Share and enjoy'

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