Celebrían

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Allyssa
Posts: 1657

Celebrían

Post#1 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

You may also find some additional information in "The People's of Middle Earth", the History of Middle Earth, vol 12, by Christopher Tolkien. Some of the stories like "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" are expanded on.

In one very early version of Celebrian's story, she is killed by the orcs, but Tolkiens seems to have changed his mind about that fairly quickly. All of the later versions say that Celebrian sailed over sea because of her "wounding" and that after the WOTR, Elrond was able to follow her.

Rather poignant, is it not? According to the Tale of Years, Celebrian left ME in the year 2510. Elrond left in 3021. That is 511 years they were separated. A long time, even for an elf! I think that roughly equates to 3 and a half years in our terms..(not unlike Tolkien's separation from Edith?)

I often wondered how Elrond would fare, telling his wife that their daughter would not be joining them, and that their sons were not comming until later? Another heart-rending duty for an already careworn Elf-lord.
"May the Angels Guide"

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grondmaster
Posts: 25451

Celebrían

Post#2 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Thanks people. :)

So what harm did the Dwarves initial awakening of the Balrog in Moria cause the Galadrim way back when, other that it was the mortal enemy of Elves? Did it leave Moria or just draw orcs to it, who then subsequently raided the borders of Loth-lorien?

Should this question be moved to a FOTR thread?
'Share and enjoy'

LadyoftheRings
Posts: 11

Celebrían

Post#3 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Allyssa, how did you figure three and a half years? I'm just curious. About the dwarves...I really don't know all that much about them. I DO know that the smiths of Eregion were friends with the dwarves for a long time (smith to smith I suppose) and when the Balrog came, well, my knowlage of the dwarves ends there. But you could be right--like Sauron summoned all evil to him for his war, so too could the Balrog have summoned the orgs and wargs of the surrounding area to hound at the elves. BTW, what time was that, do you know? What year? I'd like to look up some more information about it.

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Allyssa
Posts: 1657

Celebrían

Post#4 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Elf Years: Okay, I realise this is a contentious issue, but I am using the forumla that 120 human years = 1 elf year. But I could be very wrong on that one. Some say 144 human years = 1 elf year.

I am not sure where I got that info. Somewhere in the Appendix for TLOTRs. Does anyone have a copy of Morgoth's Ring?
"May the Angels Guide"

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valedhelgwath
Posts: 4233

Celebrían

Post#5 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

So what harm did the Dwarves initial awakening of the Balrog in Moria cause the Galadrim way back when, other that it was the mortal enemy of Elves? Did it leave Moria or just draw orcs to it, who then subsequently raided the borders of Loth-lorien?
One of the effects the Balrog had on the Galadrim was that they lost their king, Amroth. Although he was Sindarin he was deeply in love with a Silven Elf, Nimrodel, who lived alone in the woods. When the Balrog awoke she was so afraid she wished to take ship and go to the West. Because Amroth loved her so much, he forsook his people and went with her. Tragically, they became separated as they crossed the White Mountains and Amroth came to Lond Ernil (later Dol Amroth) alone. Only one ship remained, and while waiting on board for Nimrodel's arrival, one night the ship broke its moorings during a storm and was washed out to sea. Crying Nimrodel's name, Amroth dived into the water and attempted to swim back to shore. Neither Amroth or Nimrodel were ever seen again.
I'm not sure whether the Balrog itself came to the woods, or whether it was the army of orcs that scared Nimrodel away, but it must have exerted quite a presence to have this effect. The elven marchwardens surely would have been able to take care of mere orcs.

LadyoftheRings
Posts: 11

Celebrían

Post#6 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Yes, I have a copy. Hold on, i remember reading something about elves and their ages....

ok, here it is!

QUOTE:

The Eldar grew in bodily form slower than Men, but in mind more swiftly. They learned to speak before then were one year old, and in the same time they learned to walk and to dance, for their wills came soon to the mastery of their bodies. Nonetheless there was a less difference between teh two Kindneds, Elves and Men, in early youth; and a man who watched elf-children play might well have believed that they were the children of Men, of some fair and happy people. For in their early days elf-children delighted still in the world about them, and the burden of memory was still light upon them.

The same watcher might indeed have wondered at the small limbs and stature of these children, judging their age by their skill in words and grace in motion. For at the end of the third year mortal children began to outstrip the Elves, hastening on to a full stature while the Elves lingered in the first spring of childhood. Children of Men might reach their full height [my inserpt--18 to 22, maybe?] while Eldar of the same age were still in body like to mortals of no more than seven years. Not until the fiftieth year did the Eldar attain the stature and shape in which their lives would afterwards endure, and for some a hundred years would pass before they were full grown.


nn[Edited on 2/8/2002 by LadyoftheRings]

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Allyssa
Posts: 1657

Celebrían

Post#7 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Thank you very much, Ladyoftherings! :D

Does Morgoth's Ring give any sort of translation of time? ie: how long is an elf-year?
"May the Angels Guide"

LadyoftheRings
Posts: 11

Celebrían

Post#8 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Sure!

I've never heard an "elf-year" being specifically mentioned. However, I have read that, oh where is that book? Just a sec...

here it is!
Quote:

...But at whatever age they married, their cihldren were born within a short space of years after their wedding. (and then there is a footnote that says, "Short as the Eldar reckoned time. In mortal count there was often a long interval between the weding and the first child-brith and even longer between child and child. ENDQUOTE.

So, if we go by when Elrond married and had elflings, oh dang. I can't find my book anywhere. OK, who had a copy of the Lord of the Rings Appendixes? Look up the timeline and find the beginning of the Third Age. On average I think it was about 140 years between when they married and when Elladan and Elrohir were born. So, if that's a "short" time (let's say two years on an elf-scale, making division easier) then taking a wild guess, could an elf-year equel seventy human years? They seem to count the years more as the passing of seasons which some elf said passes by extremely quickly for them.

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Allyssa
Posts: 1657

Celebrían

Post#9 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am


Appendix B, TheTale of Years
The Third Age

...
109 Elrond weds Celebrian, daughter of Celeborn
130 Birth of Elladan and Elrohir, sons of Elrond
241 Birth of Arwen Undomiel.
...


Okay, that makes it 21 years before the first children were born. I am not sure if this is usual or if Elrond and Celebrian were very eager for a family. Arwen is born just over a century later. That is longer than customary, isnt it? Maybe the twins were such a handful, that they weren't in too much of a hurry the second time around. I can sympathise with that! ;)

Elrond was about 3,400 years old at the time. (Does anyone know in what year Celebrian was born?) That is also fairly old for a first time elf-father, isn't it? I read somewhere that Elves usually marry in early adulthood. Too busy fighting wars, I suppose, or could it be a "half-elf" issue?
"May the Angels Guide"

LadyoftheRings
Posts: 11

Celebrían

Post#10 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Ok, I was waaaay off on the scale but oh well. According to Morgoth's Ring elves marry soon after they become adults (e.g., 50-100 years) and that they marry, if not for love, then upon willingness from either side. Also that elves sometimes choose their mates as children, especially in times of peace, and that elves never have children in times of war. (too much chance that the mother and father could be separated, because apparently the first few years of an elf's life is so important that the parents never leave the child to go on vacations or anything). It also says that the normal thing for an elf to do was get married, unless they had strange fates ahead of them (like Elrond). So that could explain why he took so long getting around to being married. Plus, this is speculation but speculation is fun with lord of the rings ;) since Elrond was a lore-master and a healer, he probably was pretty interrested in studying for a logn time, rather than marrage. You know. Grad School and Medical School is even longer for elves than for humans. :P:

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