the line of Dúrin

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l
Posts: 18

the line of Dúrin

Post#1 » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:30 pm

Okay, here are some of my thoughts concerning the reproduction of dwarves. Apparently dwarve women are quite eccentric and hard to convince that they are needed to keep this race alive.
Plus not many female dwarves are born.

So, after seeing the beautiful dwarve women photos from WETA, I noticed one thing in particular: they assemble hobbit lasses! Apart from the beards they look very much familiar to my eye and it made me wonder, if dwarf men would be falling for hobbit lasses as well?
And if so, if they could have children?

Because that might just be the solution to that problem. And honestly, looking at handsome dwarves such as Thorin, Kili and Fili, I doubt hobbit lasses would have a problem with falling for them :angel:

I just wonder what dwarf children might look like and I wonder even more what hobbit-dwarflings would look like (isn't that a cute name for them? hehehe)?


So, what do you peeps think? Too weird or just the thing?

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galin
Posts: 1369

the line of Dúrin

Post#2 » Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:06 am


Hi Lilia, you bring up a good point but I think you are mixing some film details in, as Tolkien's Dwarf women cannot be distinguished (by other peoples) from Dwarf men, and so I doubt they resemble Hobbit women.




'For the Naugrim have beards from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike; nor indeed can their womankind be discerned by those of other race, be it in feature or in gait or in voice, nor in any wise save this: that they go not to war, and seldom save at direst need issue from their deep bowers and halls.'



Later Quenta Silmarillion, The War of the Jewels



'They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of other peoples cannot tell them apart.'



Appendix A, The Return of the King




Anyway the Dwarves must dwindle, yes; and if you haven't read Tolkien's comments about the fate of Hobbits, there is more sadness there.



Balrogs R Us
Posts: 539

the line of Dúrin

Post#3 » Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:50 am


Lilia does bring up a good point about interbreeding though. So I wonder, hypothetically, COULD other races in ME breed with eachother? We all know elves and men could, but what about elves and dwarves? Dwarves and men? Elves and hobbits? Balrogs and trolls? :p



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brego
Posts: 1275

the line of Dúrin

Post#4 » Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:39 pm

We at the least know that the Ainur could and would couple with Elves. Melian the Maia and King Thingol the Elf are of course front and centre with their heroine daughter Luthien.


As Tolkien only gives us three types of Children of Illuvatar and possibly four including the Ainur, who could be counted as Eru's children, which groups would Hobbits and for that matter the Wosses be part of? Perhaps Men and Hobbits could couple and have children. Strange thought though.


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l
Posts: 18

the line of Dúrin

Post#5 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:34 am


Dear Galin,

 indeed I was borrowing my thoughts from seeing the dwarf women in the movie and on pictures from WETA, so yes, I as well stumbled over that little difference from their description on Tolkien's literature and Peter's movie. But it just inspired me to take the thought a little further and I ended up thinking that maybe a few of the dwarf women just might have dressed differently and styled their hair differently to differ from the male dwarfs.



 



I like the thought of how the races of Middle-earth might have morphed into what mankind is nowadays. That Middle-earth is indeed our historical past and we somehow are all the result of mix-breeding. But the question is: how could that have happened?



 



[This thought has taken forms that are almost out of proportion, as I will write my finals about this subject and my university profs are all but excited about it. But that's a whole different story, hehehehe. ]



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galin
Posts: 1369

the line of Dúrin

Post#6 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:22 am


Hmm, I recall the 'absurd comment' from the following, from The Hobbit.




'It was often said (in other families) that long ago, one of the Took ancestors must have taken a fairy wife. That was, of course, absurd, but still, there was something not quite hobbit-like about them, and once in a while members of the Took-clan would go and have adventures.'




Assuming fairy wife refers to an Elf, I guess :)



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galin
Posts: 1369

the line of Dúrin

Post#7 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:48 am


As for Melian's body, I take it that she clothed herself, or arrayed herself in the body of an Elf, or at least a body compatible enough with Elves to allow progeny (I can't recall at the moment if Tolkien ever speaks to this specifically), but she was not a natural incarnate in any case.



Balrogs R Us
Posts: 539

the line of Dúrin

Post#8 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:30 am


I think the point was that she, as a maia, was still able to mate with one of the races of ME regardless of original form. Meaning Gandalf could do the same. Can you imagine if Gandalf was your dad? Awesome.



Since the biology is more or less the same, it could be compared to humans mating with different races; as opposed to animals mating with different species. Obviously a labrador can still mix with a schnauser, while a human can't mix with a monkey. However since all the children of ME function more or less the same, like canines, as opposed to humans/monkeys who are on completely different levels, I don't really see why it wouldn't be possible for the races of ME to interbreed.



And that of course bring back the question of the Uruk-Hai. A potential case of orcs and humans interbreeding. If orcs/humans can do it, I see no reason hobbits/dwarves couldn't either!



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galin
Posts: 1369

the line of Dúrin

Post#9 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:37 pm



I think the point was that she, as a maia, was still able to mate with one of the races of ME regardless of original form.




I was just adding the distinction that Melian's case, from a physical perspective, is a bit different because Elves, Men, Hobbits, Dwarves, cannot alter their bodies of course.



Melian could have chosen to be an eagle for example, although a wedding with Thingol would have been off, if so.



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galin
Posts: 1369

the line of Dúrin

Post#10 » Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:17 am



And that of course bring back the question of the Uruk-Hai. A potential case of orcs and humans interbreeding.




You are correct Balrogs, as we know Saruman bred Orcs with Men in any case. That much is not in debate, but some think the result was the Half-orcs not the Uruk-hai, while others think the Uruk-hai are also the result.



Anyway that calls something to mind from Morgoth's Ring about 'sterility' in one of the orc texts. I think it was the one that looked at beasts as a possible source for orcs, but I'll have to hunt it down later for an exact quote.



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