Watcher in the Water

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Allyssa
Posts: 1657

Watcher in the Water

Post#1 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

So if the Watcher saved the company, specifically Sam, from the insidious influence of Bill, doesnt that make it an agent for good? ie: If there had been no Watcher, Bill would not have been frightened off and the quest would have been doomed? (Assuming, of course, that Bill survived the rest of the journey through Moria)
"May the Angels Guide"

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Stonehelm
Posts: 3240

Watcher in the Water

Post#2 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

What was the Watcher in the Water really?? Was it a spirit like Gandalf and the Balrog , or was it just creature that Sauron used to try and get the ring?
I will never raise the white flag.

chikakat
Posts: 729

Watcher in the Water

Post#3 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

If it hadn't done this Sam would have insisted on taking him through Moria with him as he needs someone to pamper and most likely wouldn't of gone off with Frodo.

I don't think this is necessarily true...as much as Sam loved Bill, he loved Frodo more and would have chosen to go with Frodo over Sam. Also, I don't think Bill would have made it into the mines anyhow. It might have taken quite a while for the other members of the Fellowship to convince Sam to let him go, but I think it would have been accomplished in the end. The Watcher just sort of sped up the process.

As for what the Watcher was, I think it is sort of like Shelob...not particularly an agent for either side, just something malevolent lurking in an out of the way place. Sauron may have known it was there, and regarded it the same way as he did Shelob: it just made him happy to know that there was something nasty and evil out there that he didn't really have to worry about controlling. I don't think the Watcher was aware of the Ring; it just was doing what it would to any potential prey. After his battle with the Balrog, Gandalf says there are things in the deep places of the world older than Sauron. I think the Watcher is one of these things. The Watcher, if it is, as I assume, older than Sauron or at least unconnected with him, really isn't particularly good or evil...just nasty.

So if the Watcher saved the company, specifically Sam, from the insidious influence of Bill, doesnt that make it an agent for good?

Really, there's nothing in the world that's so bad that nothing it does or causes has any good consequences. If you think about it, the Ring itself is sort of an agent for good. Although it was created for evil and did cause horrible things to happen, in the end, good prevails. If the Ring hadn't been created and then destroyed, Sauron or a worse power would still be lurking somewhere.

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Namo
Posts: 149

Watcher in the Water

Post#4 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

I don't really think the watcher in the water was something like shelob, because shelob was one of Ungoliat's desendants, and it was the las of his desendants to die, then how could the watcher in the water be a desendant of Ungoliat while shelob was de last of his kind.
On through the night he rides, on his raging
horse made of steel
Nothing can save you now, before the renegade
you will kneel

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grondmaster
Posts: 25451

Watcher in the Water

Post#5 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Come to Rednell's Sunday's chat room class in Bilbos-Study where we will be discussing this and other of the Enemy's Nasty Critters. It starts at 9:00 PM GMT :teacher:

The reading assignment's are posted under each weeks' topic under [u] Tolkien Weekly Courses[/u] near the bottom of the forum. After the classes are over the transcript of the class is posted for review and comments by those who could not get to the class. :wiggle:

Even if you haven't read the assignment you are welcome to join us. You may join in our discussion or just sit quietly in the background listening, and there are no pop quizzes or final exams. :elfcool:

:happyelf: nn[Edited on 20/1/2003 by Grondmaster]
'Share and enjoy'

chikakat
Posts: 729

Watcher in the Water

Post#6 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

then how could the watcher in the water be a desendant of Ungoliat while shelob was de last of his kind.


I didn't mean the Watcher was a descendant of Shelob or Ungoliant...I just meant that, like Shelob, it wasn't actually in allegiance with either side.

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Namo
Posts: 149

Watcher in the Water

Post#7 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Ok thanks for clearing that up chikakat. :D
On through the night he rides, on his raging

horse made of steel

Nothing can save you now, before the renegade

you will kneel

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grondmaster
Posts: 25451

Watcher in the Water

Post#8 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

As to what the Watcher in the Water was, Gnampie (one of our resident naturalists) informed us last October in our triva thread, that it was a type of mollusc called a cephalopod. So it is something like a squid or kraken.
'Share and enjoy'

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Ross
Posts: 2147

Watcher in the Water

Post#9 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

I think the watcher in the water was one of the beings from under the mountains that are as old as the worlsd it self and has just managed to escape to the surface.

Bill's not an agent of evil, ti's just that he's much loved and you see how stubborn Sam is when he dives into the water to join Frodo on the boat. In my mind there's no doubt about it he would have just brought him with him.
Sod off I'm busy!

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Aulë
Posts: 1232

Watcher in the Water

Post#10 » Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Maybe Ulmo sent the watcher to see to that noone entered Moria. hehehehe I was just joking hahaha
I have no idea what the watcher could possibly be but I trust what you said Grondmaster.......=D
Life's a piece of sheit, when you look at it
Life's a laugh and death's a joke, it's true
You'll see its all a show, people laughin as you go
Just remember that the last laugh is on you

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