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Yes, i too think Gollum received the most compassion.
Wanted to post yesterday, but a short power failure seems to have messed up the computers at home. Yeeeey......

I'm sorry Vee, I should have added quite a few smileys to show I wasn't trying to be mean. Sad Smilie You are doing a good job as goddess and CM.

I just wanted to point out that quite a few people do NOT have an english copy of the lotr and therefore would be forced to translate it themselves to abide with your repeated demand for quotes. Or maybe they are just to lazy to type in the quote. Or, like me, both of the above. I would think a desciption of what happens is good enough, as it has been done before in here. Now if I had said it like that in the first place instead of trying to be funny... It's what happens since both keep joking around with each other. It is all fun and games until someone gets hurts, like dad used to say. Well it is a translated version of it anyway. Wink Smilie

The language is English, the creator is Irish, but the members are from all over the world. I just don't want to see anyone excluded from a good discussion, intentionally or unintentionally, that's all. It is very un-Tolkien too. The Fellowship was formed in Rivendell, and they spoke the Common Tongue (Westron?), but it consisted of all races that Eru gave life too.

Gollum is a creapy, crawly, pityful thing who talkes to himself and lives in a dark, wet cave feeding on orcs and slimy fish. But he was once a little hobbit(like) fellow like Frodo and Sam, running with bare feet in the grass under the sun. Compassion is a good thing and shows you are capable of seeing the world from a different perspective and are able and willing to put yourself in someone elses situation.
I just don't want to see anyone excluded from a good discussion, intentionally or unintentionally, that's all.

Yes, I know. And it's OK. I was just trying to get the discussion going a bit more. If people don't have the English translation handy then all they have to do is say an approximation of the quote they mean and where it is said and I would be happy to look it up andpost it for them as part of the interest I have in this thread is the quotes that quantify each topic.

I suppose, judging by the excellent English spoken by the many non-English speaking members here, it is easy to fall into the trap of thinking everyone has the books in English. I could post half a doxen quotes on the subject of Compassion myself but where is the fun in that? I want others to join in and give their views. So - if you don't have the quote to hand in English please feel free to do as I suggest above and I will provide the quote.

Wanted to post yesterday, but a short power failure seems to have messed up the computers at home.

And you thought that power cut was an mere accident? Mwahahahahahaha!!!!!!
And you thought that power cut was an mere accident? Mwahahahahahaha!!!!!!
Should have know... But something always starts to act funny just before Ray comes home, usually one of the cars, didn't suspect you this time. Well it was a very short power failure, just a blink. Maybe it was my goddess-in-training powers that made it so that the computer I sat infront (my presiousss) didn't fall out, but the TV did, and the server in the other room. Hopefully Ray can fix it when he comes home tonight.

The Goddess Vees Monologues On Compassion, now that is a good title for a book! Read Smilie
Yes compassion, that was the topic. Gandalf has compassion for all of Erus children (humans, dwarves... and Gollum), he brings news and warnings even where he is not welcome, he dies to save the others in Moria, he creates fireworks to amuse the hobbits, he helps and he guides and he explains and he yells, like a father.

I do love this one...

"If I stayed beside you, love would lead me, not wisdom.

Beleg Cthalion to Trin Turambar, The Silmarillion, the Tale of Trin Turambar.

I think of all the tales in the Silmarillion, Beleg Cthalion got to me the most.

And another one is that Maglor, after the kinslaying of Sirion took pity upon Elrond and Elros.

For Maglor took pity upon Elros and Elrond, and he cherished them, and love grew after between them, as little might be thought; but Maglor's heart was sick and Weary with the burden of the dreadful Oath.
Of the Voyage of Erendil, The Silmarillion, p.297
The topic is swords.

Firstly - Anduril, Aragorn's sword.

In The King of the Golden Hall, The Two Towers, Aragorn says:

In this elvish sheath dwells the Blade that was Broken and has been made again. Telchar first wrought it in the deeps of time.] Death shall come to any man that draws Elendil's sword save Elendil's heir.

It is the sentence I have highlighted in bold that interests me. Was this a threat from Aragorn - touch my sword and I will kill you - or is there some elven craft forged in it that would bring death by some means to anyone who draws it other than Elendhil's heir?

Death shall come to any man that draws Elendil's sword save Elendil's heir.
Well, if you just take it at face value, it is entirely true with the exception of Aragorn, in whose case it is entirely false. ' Why would that be,' you might ask? Because all Men are mortal; we all shall die in the end.

However, I don't think that was the intent of Aragorn. He wasn't offering a warning about any Elven curse that had been laid upon Anduril, but was issuing a personal threatening oath to any in hearing who would touch it, not to on pain of death. Though, if they took it the other way, so much the better.

Now, had the sheath also been that of Narsil, Elendil's sword from whose shards Anduril arose, and not a parting gift of Celeborn and Galadriel, there may have been a curse. However, the only prophesy involved was the one Galadriel made at the gift giving: "The blade that is drawn from this sheath shall not be stained or broken even in defeat." - from 'Farewell to Lorien' , Chapter 8, Book II, FotR

Even when he summoned the Oathbreakers from the Morthond to the Stone of Erech, Aragorn didn't brandish the sword before them. Though just having it with him must have enhanced his kingly bearing enough that they knew he was Isildur's heir; and the unfurling of Arwen's banner in the darkness at the Stone, must have ratified the fact.

Another of Aragorn's oaths concerning Anduril, the Flame of the West, was when he actually did brandish it glittering in the sun, two days before they left Minas Tirith on their ride to the Black Gate. Then he said, "You shall not be sheathed again until the last battle is fought." - from 'The Last Debate' Chapter 9, book V, RotK.

I have gotten slightly off topic here and the above is just my humble opinion. Maybe one of Elrond's Elven sword forgers actually did lay a curse on the blade as they were reforging it. What do you think?
Well if Aragorn says anyone who's not Isildur's heir and pulls it, will die, then that person will die. Don't know how exactly, but that person will die.

Don't forget that Narsil was forged in the first age, by Telchar, and in the first age some weapons were really special : there were even talking swords. So if that is possible, then it should be possible as well for Aragorn having a lightsabre which can only be wielded by him alone.

Elfies and Dwarfies make very special weapons, that's just the way it is.
DWARFIES ESPECIALLY!!!! *shuts up because she's off topic*

Well, I really can't make up my midn about this. Maybe ARagorn did mean it as a threat, and I"m beginning to start leaning towards that because Aragorn really didn't seem to want to lay it aside at all:

"It is not my will," he said, "to put aside my sword or to deliver Anduril to the hand of any other man."

And he even pulled rank, something we haven't see him do before in TLOTR:

"It is not clear to me that the will of Theoden son of THengel, even though he be lord of th eMark, should prevail over the will of ARagorn son of ARathorn, Elendil's heir of Gondor."

and it definitely WAS something special about ANduril, not just the sword he carried in general:

"I would do as the master of the house bade me, were this only a woodman's cot, if I bore now any sword but Anduril."

(Enough quote for ya?)
I kinda take that statement to go both ways, but more towards the fact that there was probably some sort of spell laid on the sword.

Obviously Aragorn would have slain any mortal man that tried to take Anduril from him by physical force, but at the same time Aragorn wasnt the type of guy to go around making threats, just wasnt his style. We all know Aragorn was more of the wise, strong, silent type.

I think there probably was some kind of prophecy that any other man that tried to wield Anduril that wasnt the rightful heir would find death somehow. Aragorn being as wise as he was in ancient lore, and being the rightful heir would have been completely aware of any prophecy about the sword, and as others have already pointed out, we do know for certain that many of the ancient blades forged in the First Age had magical properties.

Again though, to me Aragorn wasnt the type of man that would stand up and say something like I will kill anyone who tries to take my sword, much more his style to say something like look even if anyone managed to come by this sword somehow, they would die if they ever tried to wield it, and thats more how I personally perceive that statement.
Elf Smilie
I STILL CAN'T MAKE MY MIND UP!!!!! Every time someoen posts their opinion I'm swayed to their views. And then soemone else posts, and I'm swayed back again!!!!!!
I STILL CAN'T MAKE MY MIND UP!!!!! Every time someoen posts their opinion I'm swayed to their views. And then soemone else posts, and I'm swayed back again!!!!!!

I wouldnt worry about it too much Loni, I think a very valid case could be made either way for this topic. There really isnt a right or wrong answer on this one, but it is a very interesting statement to ponder over.
Elf Smilie
I know. But I'm a very opinionated person, and when I find my opinion, I"m usually quite adamant about it. I just hate not having an opinion on a topic. But oh well. I guess I'll just have to go to Otago. (NZercode for 'get over it' from all the ads for the uni of Otago. )
I think while he normally doesn't, it was a threat to not let anyone near the blade of the heir of Isildur. This is I think because the elves reforged it, and he was on his way to (maybe)become the king of Gondor, and reunite the two realms.
Next topic -

The Pukel-men

They are referred to in The Muster of Rohan (RotK)

....huge standing stones that had been carved in the likeness of men, huge and clumsy-limbed, squatting cross-legged with their stumpy arms folded on fat bellies. Some in the wearing of the years had lost all features save the dark holes of their eyes that still stated sadly at the passers-by.

Interestingly, Ghan-buri-Ghan was a descendant of those Pukel-men or so it seems from The Ride of The Rohirrim:

Here was one of those old images brought to life, or maybe a creature descended in true line through endless years from the models used by the forgotten craftsmen long ago.

Nice to think they survived.

More information about them is contained in Unfinished Tales - The Druedain (another name for them).

Did they possess magical powers? Were the stories told by the Folk of Haleth true? And if so, what was this magic? Why did they dwindle? What effect did their withdrawal from the world of Men have on the world?

There is also a note in Unfinished Tales that says some of the Druedain went to Numenor and there is mention of Druedain being in the Household of King Aldarion. They were noted for their strange foresight and eventually left Numenor to return to Middle-earth before the fall of Numenor.

They were forgotten by Gondor and hunted by the Rohirrim. What a waste of a beautiful race. One of the few races that Tolkien described as being really ugly and orc-like yet with a grace, intelligence and quiet inner beauty. Their laughter was 'rich and rolling' and 'untainted by scorn or malice.'
And they were able to count things like the stars in the sky and the grains of sand on the beach, making it easy to number the horses of the Rohirrim (counting the foot falls and dividing by four) and the number of the opposing Orcs (the same way, but dividing by two). Or at least that was my take on it when Ghn-buri-Ghn said:
I count many things: stars in the sky, leaves on trees, men in the dark. You have a score of scores counted ten times and five. They have more. ...- from RotK, Book V, four pages into Chapter 5, 'The Ride of the Rohirrim'.
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