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Bottom of Page    Message Board > The Fellowship of the Ring > the balrogs wings   << [1] [2]
there r those who say that elements of tolkiens lotr are stuff lifted from trad. lit. , mythology, etc. stuff...not only for some characters but for storyline! AGREED?
IF SO...sos f ERU is god, his assistants VALAR are angels, MAIAR valar assistants for sure are lesser angels too. SO....has wings!!!!!! and the Valars tho of pure spirit took the physical form resembling elves or men called by the eldar, fanar then same works for maiar for sure.........then for the only balrog left on ME as he wielded power of shadow and flame thats y shadows about it lifting up like 2 vast wings quote by someone and the fiery persona definitions i got from Guide to Middle Earth Tongue Smilie

and allyssa elves like fairies always have pointed ears, it wat sets them apart from mundane men Smoke Smilie and some unlucky maiden dwarves shave or they crush athelas and pipeweed, then apply
The games workshop Balrog has wings too

Elves do not have pointy ears! they are supposed to be taller slimmer adn fairer then men thats what sets them apart

and dwarf women do have beards! thats why they aren't seen very often caus they look like dwarfmen
Gandalf and Sauron aren't giants engulfed in flame either,so possible wings! Wink Smilie

I don't know anything about Dwarf women and whether or not they have beards and shave. I think it's likely as I've seen human women in desparate need of a shave. Why not Dwarf women?

I thought I read another post, maybe on this thread, a quote by Tolkien describing Elf ears as 'leaf shaped' which suggests points to me. Smile Smilie
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I still cant believe that a creature that has wings could fall into a chasm. Even if they were only partially operational, they would at least slow his decent (parachute like) and save it a great deal of injury.


Why not? An ostrich or an emu has wings, but is unable to fly. What if years and years ago balrogs had wings and could fly, but this one had been inside the mountain for such a long time. He didn't need to use his wings there, so during all these years the muscles of the wings disappeared, the wings became weaker or maybe even started to get smaller, disintegrate and therefore became useless, except maybe to make his body look bigger and more scary. So when he fell down the chasm, his wings couldn't save him anymore. Tongue Smilie
I'm sorry Allyssa, but I like my Elves to have pointy ears and I also wholly accept Gnampie's explanation of why the Balrog didn't use its wings, if it actually had wings, to fly out of, or down into the chasm.

Whether or not the Balrog had wings is immaterial to me. Unless I were accompanied by Glorfindel, I would not care to be found anywhere in one's vicinity; and even then, I would hope I could out-run that Elven Lord. Super Wow Smilie Super Scared Smilie
So explain to me how come the Balrog who got chucked in the well in Gondolin didn't just fly out then?
YEAH! It was still alive when it fell, because it grabbed Glorfindel's hair as it went, taking him with it. Glorfindel's Balrog was in peak condition. Should have been nothing wrong with its wings - so why did it fall?

If the Moria Balrog had wings, but the muscles had atrophied, wouldn't the wings be dragging on the floor? not spreading from wall to wall? If it could spread its wings, it could surely use them to slow its decent. Since it in fact probably hit the bottom before Gandalf (cushioning the wizard), it seems to have fallen rather quickly, given its size and weight relative to Gandalf's (that was what I was asking Grondy, does the theory that large heavy objects fall faster than smaller, lighter ones hold true? I know nothing of science and engineering).

The Balrog fell like a stone. No wings, else it would have been slower.
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YEAH! It was still alive when it fell, because it grabbed Glorfindel's hair as it went, taking him with it. Glorfindel's Balrog was in peak condition. Should have been nothing wrong with its wings - so why did it fall?

Sorry, still haven't read the Syl yet, so I have no aswer for this one (can't seem to get by the first part.......so boring) Boring Smilie

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If the Moria Balrog had wings, but the muscles had atrophied, wouldn't the wings be dragging on the floor? not spreading from wall to wall?

Not necessarily. There is a difference between having enough muscles to spread your wings and have enough muscles to actually lift such a heavy weight from the floor.

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If it could spread its wings, it could surely use them to slow its decent. Since it in fact probably hit the bottom before Gandalf (cushioning the wizard), it seems to have fallen rather quickly, given its size and weight relative to Gandalf's (that was what I was asking Grondy, does the theory that large heavy objects fall faster than smaller, lighter ones hold true? I know nothing of science and engineering).

The Balrog fell like a stone. No wings, else it would have been slower.

If the law of gravity also applies to ME, yes a heavy object would fall faster than a light object.
About the wings slowing the Balrog down, mmm..... it depends on how it is falling I guess. Animated Wink Smilie
Possibility 1: he is falling horizontaly
In the best case he is falling faced down and with his body in a right angle with the length of the chasm, so that there is room enough to spread his wings and the wings can catch air. In that case you can expect the wings to slow down his fall. With his body in the same position, but faced upwards, the wings would also catch air, but it wouldn't be so effective.
If his body is situated parallel with the length of the chasm, there wouldn't be enough room to spread his wings, so they wouldn't slow down his fall.
Possibility 2: he is falling vertically
If he falls with his head down, opening his wings wouldn't matter because they wouldn't catch any air anyway. If he falls with his feet first he might be able to use his wings a bit. But again it is also possible he can't open his wings because the walls are to close to each other.
Ha Ha Ha Smilie
And what if it depends on the season? Maybe during some seasons they have wings and in other seasons they don't. Very Big Grin Smilie

Don't take this all too serious. I just couldn't resist writing this. It's so funny when I try to picture all these possibilities in my mind. Big Smile Smilie

Personally, I don't care if it has wings or not. It looks impressive and mysterious and I'm contented with that. I like the mystic around it.
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If the law of gravity also applies to ME, yes a heavy object would fall faster than a light object.
Sorry, Gnampie. Your statement is scientifically false. Heavier objects don't fall any faster that light objects except maybe for an infinitesimally slight variation due to air resistance, as in the case of feathers, which turn into lift bodies and soar rather than fall. In a vacuum they would all fall at an exactly equal rate. Read Smilie Smile Smilie

Oh, and I really do believe that Balrogs have wings that are made of shadow, which can be seen even in direct sunlight; but that they are useless for flying, as they are only meant for intimidation, at which they succeed in doing quite well, thank you. Super Scared Smilie

Why are we still having this argument/discussion? Didn't Plastic Squirrel's definitive posting of 18 JAN 2002 under 'The Movies' Fellowship of the Ring > the belrog inform us that "resistance is useless," we can argue until the cows come home, and that neither side can win? Or are we just having fun with the topic again? Very Big Grin Smilie
Come to think of it, how do we know anything of what the Balrog looked like. The description in the book is rather sparse. We know it was fiery, had something that at least suggested wings, a whip, a sword, and...um...feet. It could have been wearing a pink tu tu for all we know. Big Laugh Smilie

Actually, I believe it's described a 'fiery shadow'. Maybe the Balrog was made entirely of shadow, including its WINGS.
Yes Grondy, you're absolutely right!
Thanks for correcting my mistake.Disturbed Smilie
Yesterday I only thought about that formula for gravity: F=m.g
But this gives only the force working on the body and not the time it takes for the object to come down. When you analyse this formula a bit further, you indeed come to the conclusion that the time it takes the object to come down is independend of its weight.
Phew, I had to dig really deep in my memory for this one. One Eye Smilie

[Edited on 1/8/2002 by gnampie]
I dont know about the rest of you, but I just couldn't resist when I saw that this thread had been re-activated. Wink Smilie

Allyssa's rule no. 1 for remaining sane:

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"Indulge a little silliness everyday."


Big Laugh Smilie Big Laugh Smilie

Okay, the balrog was not likely to be falling vertically face down, because if it was, it would not have been able to lash at Gandalf accurately with its whip. It would not have been able to see him. It is actually quite difficult to use a whip as a weapon.

I think it was likely falling feet first, so that it could look up and see where it was lashing.

Another point: It was able to lash its whip. I have seen demonstrations of this. It requires considerable room to crack a whip, therefore, there must have been a very substantial amount of room around the balrog as it fell. If there wasenough room to crack a whip, there should have been enough room to spread wings, and slow decent. There goes the "not enough room" argument.

No wings.
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Okay, the balrog was not likely to be falling vertically face down, because if it was, it would not have been able to lash at Gandalf accurately with its whip. It would not have been able to see him. It is actually quite difficult to use a whip as a weapon.


You mean he actually did that on purpose!! Super Wow Smilie
I always thought the whip accidentally pulled Gandalf over the edge. Wink Smilie
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You mean he actually did that on purpose!! Super Wow Smilie
I always thought the whip accidentally pulled Gandalf over the edge. Wink Smilie
No, the Balrog pulled Gandalf after it with much malice afore thought. After all, it was an evil being. Very Big Grin Smilie
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With a terrible cry the Balrog fell forward, and its SHADOW plunged down and vanished. But even as it fell IT SWUNG ITS WHIP, and the thongs lashed and curled about the wizards knees, dragging him to the brink.


So it was intentional, although I still don't see how that refutes the winged Balrog theory. Even if it spread it's most likely useless wings, it was probably so heavy that their negligible surface area couldn't slow its descent. WINGS!!!! WINGS I TELL YOU!!! Jumping Flame Smilie


[Edited on 8/3/02 by ProgHead777]
If it had room to swing a whip, why didn't it have room to spread its wings? (if it had wings?)

No wings. Jumping Flame Smilie Unless they were imaginary or composed of shadow only. Big Laugh Smilie
No wings! I really think Tolkiens reference to wings was his way of describing the breadth of the beast, cause in his first reference he uses the word "like", the second reference would refer back to his first reference to the shadow, "like two vast wings"
Of course this is in my humble opinion. Ignore Smilie
Rednell
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No wings. Unless they were imaginary or composed of shadow only.


Yes, I believe they were composed of shadow, as was the rest of the Balrog, making it a WINGED shadow-stuff creature! And I still say the best argument for the Balrog having wings is because they make it look so COOL!! Cool Smilie Cool Smilie Cool Smilie

(Keep in mind this is all in fun. I really couldn't care less!)
I decided to post this here rather than in the Ivy Bush Tavern.

Plastic Squirrel: In the title of your contest thread
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...and a Balrog in a Mallorn Tree!
How the heck did the crittur get in that tree if it didn't have wings? Elf Sticking Tounge Out Smilie Or was it just the inanimate prize from a Happy Meal that one of the Elves or a Fourth Age Hobbit tossed into the tree as they were trying to dig their hamburger and fries from the box or bag? Elf With a Big Grin Smilie
Oh very funny. It climbed up there like a cat or a squirrel might (they don't have wings either). Incidentally, on a re-watching of Bakshi's mighty fine Lotr movie the other night, I noticed that his very much winged Balrog, actually flies onto the bridge to fight Gandalf and then falls into the chasm, evidently forgetting he could fly. Laugh? I very nearly soiled myself!
The bridge fell out from under him so he was most likely falling feet first.
And this changes things how? Surely he could still spin round and come up flying?
While all of you merrily discuss whether the Balrog had wings or not, I'll go along with JRR Tolkien who actually told us that it did in the Two Towers....
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It stepped slowly onto the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall.
If Tolkien says it did, that's good enough for me.
Val: Go back and read the two paragrapghs before the one you quoted; however, you will have better luck if you do so in the RotK--and yes I know you only typed "TT" because it is now in everybody's mind. Rednell quoted the two paragraphs in her post of 6/7/2002 at 15:57 in this thread.

For a difinitve, but long winded essay on the amibguity of the wingedness of the Balrog, read Plastic Squirrel's post of 18/1/2002 at 17:04 in the thread the belrog also under Fellowship of the Ring.
Noticed this while watching TT: When Gandalf beats the Balrog, its fire goes out...then it really looks like the thing has wings...not that the movie is a particularly accurate indicator of the book, but I thought that was interesting...
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however, you will have better luck if you do so in the RotK--and yes I know you only typed "TT" because it is now in everybody's mind.


Grondy: Val may have more luck if he reads FOTR really....
*despairs of his fellow council members ability to remember books* Wink Smilie
Whoops.. that's the problems of posting when consumed with Christmas spirit. Wrong book..doh!

I just came across the wings bit while perusing the chapter for another subject and posted it without going back over the previous arguements.

I for one still believe the Balrog had wings though. It was a creature of flame and shadow. If its wings were like vast shadows, so be it, its wings were made out of shadow... they were still wings.

Whether it had wings or not though, the Balrog could still fly. I remember reading somewhere (although I cannot remember which book) that it had flown down from Angmar at the end of the First Age.
I always thought Balrogs had wings, I don't know if they are flying wings or not though.
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Grondy: Val may have more luck if he reads FOTR really....
*despairs of his fellow council members ability to remember books*
Arrrggghhh! I :elfembar: Let that be a lesson to you kiddies:
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People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones
and likewise unto it
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Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone.
Read Smilie
slap*I hope that didn't hurt much*
The Balrog do have wings but it seems like it can't use them just like pingwins!
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Whether it had wings or not though, the Balrog could still fly. I remember reading somewhere (although I cannot remember which book) that it had flown down from Angmar at the end of the First Age.



Val I have no memory of this....where does this say? If they could fly why didnt they do it when Melkor was about to get killed by Ungoliant? It says they ran to save their master. They slashed Ungoliants great black webs with their wips and swords of fire.....

Big Laugh Smilie
This is one of those subjects that will go on and on and on forever! Big Smile Smilie

Hey, maybe some Balrogs have wings and some don't, just like the Dragons.
Well all the dragons had wings except the father of the dragons....the worm of Morgoth Glaurung!
In TT, when they fall, you can clearly see the balrog wing bones and if you look closely you can see a thin see-through layer streached out between the "fingers" where the skin should be. Shadow wings! Smile Smilie And shadows can't fly..

Maybe the wings are just for show, to attract female Balrogs so they can reproduce. Big Laugh Smilie
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Belrog sex?.......ewwww, now theres a unnerving image, imagine all the first degree burns!! Big Laugh Smilie


No not 1rst degree....I would go for 3rd degree burns.....but then again they are both of fire!
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Well all the dragons had wings except the father of the dragons....the worm of Morgoth Glaurung!
I think all the early dragons were flightless. I cannot find a passage in the Sil or UT to confirm this but both Foster's complete guide to ME and Tyler's Complete Tolkien companion agree with it.

From Tyler's CTC
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The Great Worms were divided into three distinct breeds: the uruloki, fire-breathing beasts who were unable to fly (Glaurung was one of these): their evolved kindred who could both fly and breathe fire (Ancalagon and Smaug the Golden were of this type); and many lesser 'cold-drakes' whose power lay in speed and size alone.

From Foster's CGTME
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The first of the uruloki, the fire-drakes of the North, was Glaurung. They breathed fire but did not fly; they were the most common type of dragon in the First Age.


These quotes can be validated by comparing two passages from the Silmarillion, the first from the fall of Gondolin in FA 511 and the second from the Great Battle some years later.
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and with them came the dragons of the brood of Glaurung, and they had become now many and terrible.
and then from the Great Battle a few years later
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...and out of the pits of Angband there issued the winged dragons, that had not before been seen; and so sudden and ruinous was the onset of that dreadful fleet that the host of the Valar was driven back....
Hmmm....well I guess Val has proven me wrong there, Stonehelm.....I am sorry for that....

oh well always look at the bright side of life*whistling!* Big Laugh Smilie
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