Hey, has anybody heard about the Catastrophe theory? Well, if you've seen the recent movie Butterfly Effect, then I'll tell you this is exactly what it means.

There are many situations where we make choises. Now, according to the Catastrophe Theory, because of these choises the future events change. Its is said that such innumerable parallel worlds exist when some choises are made or some things happen that could have been otherwise, make a big difference to the history. You're in one of these worlds right now, because you've made some choises this way and not that!!!

Anyways, how about applying this theory to the events in LOTR??? I bet it'll get pretty interesting.

What we can do, is pick an event in the book, which could have been ended differently or a choise which could have been otherwise. Damn, you know what, we can even write our own version of the events in LOTR from this!!!! Umm, that was a little too much, but who knows, it is possible.

So, what do you people think???

What if Smeagol hadn't killed Deagol, but let him keep the ring he found?
Or even better: If the two gave the ring to grandma or head of the family or whatever she was, instead of keeping it themselves?

Say, how about we pick such things up one by one and try to build up on it? Let's see where it might lead to! Let's stretch our imagination a bit, eh?

Just to add a bit more spice...
What would have happened if Sauron and Saruman had shown a bit more common sense and attacked Helm's Deep and Minas Tirith at the same time? Which one could have been saved???

Saruman would have been pretty mad if that had happened!!! lol

Hmm. You've got me thinking V.

OK. Here goes.

First, Gandalf, when he would come to know that the three of them are dead, he would try to locate anyone who was responsible. I think with Shadowfax with him, he would probably have found Eomer and his men and would come to know what had happened and he would be sad. But then, he'd make it Edoras with them anyway. He'd then, umm, free Theoden and I think they'd still go to Helm's Deep and all without those three. There in the actual battle, I think, orcs would still lose, but probably take many more mens' lives. But, I think the important ones like Eomer, Hama and Theoden would still survive.

Then I can safely jump directly to the part where the rangers come in. I think Gandalf would be wise enough to pick up Anduril anyways. But then, it would be useless, because now, there is no King left (Thinking of the Dead at this point, by the way what were they called? Can't recollect it).

Now, I can't continue at this point, because I do not know what would happen to the Kingship, because I guess no one has spoken about the throne of Gondor in my other thread "King". I think two threads of mine have crossed. I hope someone answers me there, because, I'm stuck here!!

And what if Sam had killed Gollum on the paths of Mount Doom? What would have happened when Frodo failed to destroy the Ring? Would Sam have been able to wrestle the ring from him? Would Sam have pushed Frodo into the fires of Mount Doom to save the world?

Frodo wouldn't become more poweful than Sauron because the Ring was filled with his spirit and power so once Frodo had claimed the ring it would be simple thing for Sauron to take it from him.

If Gandalf had known about the One Ring at the end of The Hobbit, I don't think he could have talked Bilbo into taking it to Mordor and taking it from Bilbo may been have detrimental to Bilbo's mental health. Besides if he tried to carry it there himself, he would have fallen victim to its power. No I think things happened according to Eru's time frame:

And it came to pass in the fullness of time, that all the threads in Eru's plan started coming together as a birthday party in the Shire was being planned as summer ended in the eighteenth year of the Fourth Millenium of the Third Age of Middle-earth.

Still, you may play "What If The Lord of the Rings Had Been Written by Harry Turtledove."

I think Grondmaster nailed it; one of the good things Jackson did was preserve Gandalfs explanation to Frodo of how Bilbo found the Ring because he was meant to, and not by its maker. What we really have to determine is whether we're debating the power of fate or of destiny, two very different things. IMHO, even if Bilbo hadn't been fated to find the Ring, it was destined to be destroyed. This does have me in mind of the Portal Stones from a certain other wordy series I've been going on about, and with that in mind, I'll submit that sometimes there's only one choice that provides real differentiation, and all others are but a variation on a theme.

WoT has been mentioned so possibly although there are 'portal' stones in Robin Hobbs' Farseer books as well. Not sure whether they are actually called portal stones... but they might be.

Sorry I missed your earlier post, Miruvor; without search funcitons and a way to get a list of all my old posts I tend to get lost, but yes, those were the Portal Stones I had in mind, specifically, all the different reality alternatives that Rand experienced en route to Falme that all ended with "I win again, Lews Therin." What I had in mind was the possibility that all other alternatives had been excluded by a kind of survival instinct the Creator instilled in the universe, and a similar thing done by Eru.

Oh, well, that's different then. Then the question is whether the Nines winged steeds could handle Gwaihir, but no question the collective might of the Eagles could handle them. Of course, the Fellowship didn't know about those winged mounts until they left Lorien, so there might be a new shortlived king of the Eagles (yes, I know the Nine had horses until Bruinen, but their winged mounts didn't just suddenly appear.) Possession of the Ring by other powerful members of Middle-Earth is (still) a rich "what if" domain itself I'm surprised we haven't seen more, thus Bilbo WAS meant to find the Ring, and be the only person who could to prevent disaster.

I guess I'll throw out a really unlikely one to keep it going: what if Morgoth had (or even Sauron legitmately) had reformed? Would evil have come about in Middle-Earth by another means? Would his creations have persisted with a mind of their own?

The Eagles were Maiar, servants of Manwë, hence i think they weren't allowed to interfere directly in the quest to destroy the Ring. After the Ring got destroyed, is another story : then they were allowed to save Frodo and Sam.

Besides, i'm pretty sure the Eye of Sauron -without distraction- would notice one or all great Eagles approaching Mordor, hence Sauron would either send all of his Nazgûl, or go to Mt Doom himself, and pick up the Ring.


That's also the essence of one of the "parallel universe" theories, now popular in kosmology : there are an infinite amount of parallel universes, but only one ultimately makes enduring life possible.

Landroval and Gwaihir are mentioned as Thorondor's sons in HOME, i think. Could also be in the index of the Sil.

OK, I'll buy that. My knowledge of HOME is limited to LT1&2 (unless we count UT also, but I've only read that once) so I can't speak to that. The index of the Silmarillion refers us to RotK, where Gwaihir and Landroval are called "descendants" of Thorondor. I no longer wish to take a position either way, though I will say "descendant" at least implies they're not in the immediate family. On the other hand, who ever heard of a talking eagle?

There were probably a pair of talking Eagles living in Narnia as well, but I can't guarantee this as Lewis didn't include an index in any of my copies of The Chronicles of Narnia, and I'm not about to waste my time manually searching the text.