I'm just reading the notes after having read the text of 'History of Galadriel and Celeborn' in UT for the first time. Seems we were left with an conundrum by the Professor regarding Celeborn's movements during the Second Age. When was he in Lindon and when in Lorien? I guess it all depends on which scraps of paper were the later ones.

I hope that J.R.R.Tolkien found in his final destination 'That Great Library in the Sky', the completed Tome by Tolkien and that it was the magnificent work that he had always imagined it to be, with all the contradictions and loose ends leading to logical and meaningful conclusions. Thus a real after-life comparison to his Leaf by Niggle.

I read the essay on Celeborn by Mr. Martinez last night, good stuff! I do have to say that there are some particular elements of his writing style that I personally don’t care for, but he’s obviously extremely knowledgeable when it comes to Tolkien. I don’t know, maybe it was just that particular essay, that’s the first time I’ve read any of his work, so maybe I need to read more of his offerings. I really enjoyed the latter half of his essay though.

Personally I have never had a problem with Celeborn. The way I’ve always looked at it is, heh, if he’s Galadriel’s husband, and he’s the one she choose, then there has to be a reason, and that’s always been good enough for me. I really enjoyed all of the extra scenes we got with him in the extended edition of FOTR, because I’ve always felt like he got the short end of the stick, and I was glad we got to see more of his character. I think Mr. Martinez states the real problem with his character maybe not getting enough respect exactly how it is, he’s “a glittering jewel lying half-buried amid other jewels, some brighter or less covered up.” I think that really sums it up.

I do have to take exception with a comment he made at the beginning of his essay, “Like Galadriel gets off her royal duff and does something. Sorry. That Warg won’t howl.” Please, you have got be kidding me! I’ll give Mr. Martinez the benefit of the doubt here, and assume that this was just another place he thought he was being funny because, anyone who doesn’t understand that Galadriel is one of the single most important characters regarding Tolkien’s Middle Earth is missing the swan ship. In fact one could make a serious case that in LOTR she (her contributions) is the single most important person responsible for the ultimate success of the Ring-bearer’s quest. I could go off, and write a ten-page essay on this subject, but I don’t need ten pages to get to the point. Hello Elven rope, hello Elven cloaks, hello Lembas, and most importantly, hello the Phail of Galadriel (which she herself prepared specifically for Frodo)! Without her contributions to Frodo and Sam, the quest would have never succeeded. I’m not in anyway whatsoever trying to diminish the vastly important roles that the other characters played in aiding the quest, but without Galadriel getting involved, the party’s over! Also, correct me if I’m wrong, but I’ve always thought that in TTT (Shelob’s lair) that it was her voice speaking when Frodo says “Aiya Earendil Elenion Ancalima!” She is watching over him from afar, and protecting him with her power. Further on page 373 of TTT its “Galadriel” that Frodo cries to muster his courage, not anybody else’s name. Let us not forget that in the time of the third age, Galadriel is the single most powerful Elf left in Middle Earth! To imply that she did nothing is absurd.

Another thing that bothers me is this idea that Galadriel was some power hungry monster. It wasn’t so much as she was power hungry, rather than she was born, and destined to be powerful (although I will admit that she had always desired to have her own kingdom). It constantly amazes me that for all these so called Tolkien experts (who are far more well read, and far more intelligent than I am) that bash on Galadriel, and say that she was power hungry, not one of them ever mentions that she was from the blood line of Indis the Fair. If you know your Silmarillon history, than you know that (from page 66, the Silmarillion), “the children of Indis were great and glorious, and their children also; and if they had not lived the history of the Eldar would have been diminished.” So you see again, what we are really getting here with Galadriel’s character is not so much her being power hungry, but her being destined to be powerful, and to do great deeds. This element of her character is really the direct result of her being from that bloodline, and the vast amount of time she spent with Melian in Doriath, and the enormous influence that Melian had on her. It is my own personal view (which I have previously stated over in the Silmarillion discussion group, assignment 7) that Galadriel acquired a great deal of her knowledge, and power from all her time spent with Melian, and in fact, I view Galadriel now as sort of a Third Age Melian, kind of fulfilling that role. For anyone who just refuses to give up the notion that Galadriel was a power monger know this, that whatever her faults may have been, they were pure, and she was pure. Aragorn states this to Boromir very eloquently on page 402 of FOTR, “Speak no evil of the Lady Galadriel! You know not what you say. There is no evil in her and in this land no evil, unless a man bring it hither himself.”

Alas I have rambled on here, my apologies, but I felt it my duty to defend the honor of the Lady of Light. After all this thread is about poor Celeborn, and here he is getting lost among brighter jewels again. Props to thee Celeborn, and as Mr. Martinez so accurately stated, anyone who can land a Galadriel is a winner in my book!

Like you say, Elfstone, Galadriel is very much the Third Age's answer to Melian with whom she spent so much time. The impression I have always had of Celeborn has always been similar to the one i have had for Thingol too. Both were great elven Lords, overshadowed by the brightness of their respective wives.

I agree with your comments about Mr. Martinez too. His style is a little different, but it was perhaps the best essay I have seen concerning Celeborn.

I've just been looking through UT and found a few details about Celeborn's lineage not mentioned in the above essay. I've known for a while that Celeborn was a kinsman of Thingol.... Celeborn's grandfather being Elmo, the younger brother of Thingol and Olwe.

What I had not noticed before, however, was that Celeborn had a brother, Galathil. Through Galathil, Celeborn's lineage can be seen to be far closer to that of Elrond and the Line of Numenor than how he is normally envisaged. Galathil was the father of Nimloth who married Dior. Celeborn is, therefore, great uncle to Dior's daughter Elwing, the mother of Elrond and Elros.

To me this answers two questions I have often wondered. Firstly, why was Celeborn held in such esteem, other than being the husband of Galadriel. I can now see he was not just some common or garden Lord, but much closer to the whole bloodline which permeates through the whole Middle Earth story.

It also answers very nicely for me who Nimloth was. Dior was famously the son of Beren and Luthien, but I knew very little about Nimloth. Up until now she has just been some Sindarin elf who Dior fell for, and who became famous in her own right for being Elrond's granny. Now I can see clearly the logic of that marriage, because she is part of Thingol's extended royal family.

I must begin re-reading UT again at some stage... There are so many hidden gems I missed the first time around.

I agree Miruvor. It all depends on which lineage you choose to follow. Has he been one of the elves that crossed the grinding ice with the Noldor (what would explain why he could not return until his ban was lifted, like with Galadriel). Or just a Sindar elf with a somewhat unclear lineage. Being related to Thingol doesn't rank you high in my esteme. I have been beta'ing an author who only preferred to write Celeborn stories so I know the facts of Celeborn quite well these days. I just sometimes wished Tolkien sticked to one theory, instead of changing that a lot.

This and later posts have been moved to Messages from Celeborn in Aman  in the Writers' guild.

Both of my lineages mentioned by Tolkien are correct, he just got confused. It is my father's lineage and my mother's lineage. Of course they're different, I should hope so!

When was he in Lindon and when in Lorien? I guess it all depends on which scraps of paper were the later ones.

 

This is another confusing area, and dating becomes significant. There's a note where Galadriel and Celeborn go to Lorien after the destruction of Eregion, but in a contemporary note, Celeborn goes to Lorien and later joins Galadriel in Lindon (without noting when exactly Galadriel left for Lindon, but possibly when the other two of the Three Rings were sent to Lindon).

It might be assumed that, within the context of the former note, upon ultimatey leaving Lorien (in this Age) they both go to Lindon, but it's not stated there specifically, if I remember correctly.

Which is later (externally)? The rest of Tolkien's later notes might be assembled into a chronology of sorts, but even Christopher Tolkien can't seem to date which of these notes came after the other. 

I would that the Professor would have gone deeper into Lord Celeborn's life, fleshed him out even more. But he did not and I therefore am left with certain impressions that linger. He was extremely noble and refined and of course he must have really been something intellectually and dream wise, for the most amazing Lady Galadriel to have given him the time of day, for it seemed every single creature from their clans was totally awe inspiring in some way or another, with intellect or cunning , with beauty, craftsmanship, with understanding of lore and all sorts of things. So Celeborn will always swish through my mind in his magnificent robes with kingly beauty and awe inspiring wisdom and thought.