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It came to pass that at the midsummer the Dwarves, as was their custom, bade Eöl to a feast in Nogrod; and he rode away. Now Maeglin and his mother were free for a while to go where they wished, and they rode often to the eaves of the wood, seeking the sunlight; and desire grew hot in Maeglin's heart to leave Nan Elmoth for ever. Therefore he said to Aredhel: 'Lady, let us depart while there is time? What hope is there in this wood for you or for me? Here we are held in bondage, and no profit shall I find here; for I have learned all that my father has to teach, or that the Naugrim will reveal to me. Shall we not seek for Gondolin? You shall be my guide, and I will be your guard!'

(from Chapter 16 of the Quenta Silmarillion)

Until adulthood, Maeglin had always lived in the dark confinement of Nan Elmoth where not even the slightest ray of sunlight could enter ; his father Eöl made sure that nor his son nor his wife came into contact with the Noldor. In Nan Elmoth Maeglin was taught in everything that Eöl had to teach, yet his father could not avoid that Maeglin loved his mother Aredhel better and was always eager to listen to her stories about her kin and the city of Gondolin, so that as soon as Maeglin was a fully grown young man, he desired to leave the small, protected asylum that his father had tried to make his home. His mother, whose desire to see her kin again was awokened again by the telling of her stories, and who was tired of the loneliness in the shadows when her spouse and son were away, did of course not disagree.

Then Maeglin bowed low and took Turgon for lord and king, to do all his will; but thereafter he stood silent and watchful, for the bliss and splendour of Gondolin surpassed all that he had imagined from the tales of his mother, and he was amazed by the strength of the city and the hosts of its people, and the many things strange and beautiful that he beheld.

(from Chapter 16 of the Quenta Silmarillion)

Once Maeglin and his mother had reached Gondolin, Maeglin was in awe by the glory and splendour of the Hidden City, whose greatness even surpassed his mother’s stories. After living in almost complete confinement and isolation his entire life, Maeglin was so impressed by the world outside his former home that every new emotion, every new input to his senses made a lasting impression on him – which is of primordial importance in understanding Maeglin’s feelings when he met Idril Celebrindal :

Yet to none were his eyes more often drawn than to Idril the King's daughter, who sat beside him; for she was golden as the Vanyar, her mother's kindred, and she seemed to him as the sun from which all the King's hall drew its light.

(from Chapter 16 of the Quenta Silmarillion)

No, it is not surprising that Maeglin was in complete awe, completely bamboozled, when he first saw his niece, and that she appeared to him as impressive as described in the above quote : one must not forget that except for his mother, Idril was the first woman he ever saw – this, combined with the fact that Idril was regarded as a unique beauty even among the Noldor (she was one of the most beautiful children of Illúvatar in the history of Arda) were the reasons for his immediate feelings for his niece : complete reverence and awe.
Yet, the reasons why Maeglin’s feelings for Idril deepened, and in the end were the cause of Gondolin’s downfall, are more complex.
One must keep in mind that shortly after Maeglin and Ar-Feiniel arrived in Gondolin, his father also appeared, after which Maeglin lost both his father and his mother ; while he did not feel any sorrow for his father’s death, he was shattered by the death of his mother, whom he had always loved deeply.

It is here that we come to the core of Maeglin’s future feelings for Idril : had his mother still been alive, she would have sensed her son’s feelings for his niece, and she would have quickly quenched her son’s « crush » and awoken him from the emotional delirium he was experiencing (for the same, would not Míriel Serindë have been able to temper her son Fëanor, had she not passed away ?).
But as Ar-Feiniel had passed away, no one was there to understand and quench Maeglin’s feelings : Maeglin had lost the person who had been his guide in the world outside Nan Elmoth, this whole new world that somehow had to become his new home. Maeglin had not only lost his protector, but also the first woman he had ever loved, and felt completely alone in this strange, yet disconcertingly exciting new place that was his mother’s City.

At this point, Maeglin was longing for somebody like his mother, somebody to love him and to guide him, and considering the emotional short-circuit (caused by the death of his mother and the awe he felt for Idril) he was experiencing, he fixated his longing on Idril and instead of just revering her, he began to love her like he had loved his mother. Of course, Maeglin quickly adapted to his new life in Gondolin, and became a true prince of the Noldor, a great craftsman and valiant warrior, loved by Thingol like a son, but there remained one weakness inside him : his love for Idril, as the wounds that were his mother’s death and the loneliness caused by it, never healed.

Before the end, Maeglin was captured by Morgoth’s servants and led before the Dark Enemy of the World himself; Morgoth sensed and recognized Maeglin's weakness and used it to turn Maeglin into a tool for his hatred and revenge by twisting Maeglin’s love (which was hurt and vulnerable because Idril had given her heart to Tuor) for Idril into mere desire and lust, and feeding it – and Maeglin ultimately betrayed both his mother’s city and his mother’s people, in order to have the only woman he thought could possibly replace his mother.

It was not the first, and would not be the last time that the dark powers abused one’s love as a tool of betrayal and malice : one must remember Sauron abusing Gorlim’s love for Eilinel, Glaurung destroying Túrin and Níenor with love, and Saruman abusing Gríma’s love for Lady Éowyn.
I don't really think Maeglin would have loved Idril like a mother. How can that sort of love turn into pure lust? And I never really thought Maeglin loved his mother that much either. He was just interested in the stories Aredhel had to tell him. Maeglin was a craftsman, Gondolin would have been a place of splendour and awe to him. And he probably saw Gondolin as just that, too - a masterpiece of craftsmen.
I don't really think Maeglin would have loved Idril like a mother. How can that sort of love turn into pure lust?

I believe it was Morgoth that turned Maeglin's love for Idril into lust, making use of Maeglin's jealousy for Tuor.

What i wrote, is my opinion on why Maeglin did what he did. I try to find possible reasons for Maeglin's actions, instead of just going "Maeglin was evil".
Probably the wrong place to pose this question, but what exactly did Tolkien have against craftsmen? Sauron and Saruman were both apprentices of Aule, both craftsmen...Both turned bad. Feanor, greatest of the elven craftsman, and the greatest elven bad guy. Eol, great craftsman, but very dark hearted. His son Maeglin, another great craftsman, but probably the darkest of the bunch. Celebrimbor... not too bad considering he was a grandson of Feanor, but helped Sauron start the ball rolling by helping him craft the rings of power. And that's without even considering the dwarves!!!
I don't think Tolkien had anything against craftsmen actually. I believe he had
a problem with people who did not consider the consequences when they made creations.
He had a problem with people who did not think about what they were going to destroy
in order to advance. The elves are great craftsmen, and what may seem like magic
to us simply could be considered advanced technology -- a technology that actually works
in conjunction with nature rather than destroying it. I think Tolkien has a think
before you act attitude.
Yup! I agree with Eruwen. Tolkien was just telling us that we should always seek to be in harmony with Nature. Why else would he have Aule be Yavanna's spouse? They have a very unique relationship. Craftsmen take from Nature, yet what they are really trying to do is just preserving the beauty of Nature. The reason Aule didn't go evil (as some of his Maiar did) was due to the fact that he loved the thing that supported him and his craft - nature. Feanor's "love" for his Silmarils was actually just over-possessiveness. Sauron fell because he couldn't see the true meaning of making things. He thought craft was some tool to gain power with. Sauron sort of "abused" the art of smithcraft, and he was in the end consumed by his lust for power (and his own power). Saruman is similar to Sauron, and if he were given time, perhaps he would become just as powerful too. They did not consider the consequences of such abuse to Nature which supports them. They also did not understand the real reason for "craft". They twisted the art into various evil forms to serve their own purposes. The downfall of these beings are of course certain.

Craftsmen are the easiest to fall, since they are the cleverest and most inventitive. I do not have my copy of the Shaping of ME with me right now, but I remember something from it talked about the differences between Aule and Morgoth. About why Morgoth fell and Aule didn't.
Great points, Cloveress. I love the support you give. I forgot about craft being married to nature. Nice.
All those craftsmen that have been mentioned - Sauron, Saruman, Fëanor, Eöl - 'fell' because the works they made were made for their own selfish purposes, instead for everyone's enjoyment and/or benefit.

Aulë is a true craftsman and artist, as everything he ever made he made for everyone; he did not cling to his works like Fëanor clinged to his Silmarils, nor did he make any works in order to enhance himself.

Celebrimbor doesn't belong in the list with Sauron, Saruman and Fëanor, as he never made anything for his own benefit - he made the Elessar and the Three, objects that couldn't
be used to enslave and dominate, but instead could only be used for healing and preserving.

The Seven and the Nine cannot be attributed to Celebrimbor alone, as Sauron helped in their making - but he never had any doing in the creation of the Three.

There's also a difference between the renowned Elvish craftsmen, and the fallen disciples of Aulë : all creations by Elvish craftsmen never harmed Arda, or 'nature', but merely made use of resources of Arda and enhanced them; Saruman and Sauron though, never paid any regards to nature and were abolishing it - and at least one of them was utterly punished for this, as the spirits that were sent by Eru on Yavanna's bidding, the Onodrim, struck back. One must keep in mind that the Onodrim were sent to Arda to maintain the equilibrium that was disturbed by the creation of Aulë's Dwarves.

Anyway, to go back on topic, it is puzzling that both Fëanor and Maeglin were responsible for such fell deeds, while the both of them had lost their mother on one point, after which there was no one around anymore who could temper their spirits. Instead, they were left alone, brooding in the shadows.

In the end, it all comes down to psychological traumas.
Anyway, to go back on topic, it is puzzling that both Fëanor and Maeglin were responsible for such fell deeds, while the both of them had lost their mother on one point, after which there was no one around anymore who could temper their spirits. Instead, they were left alone, brooding in the shadows.

In the end, it all comes down to psychological traumas.

I wonder if this has anything to do with Tolkien's own loss of his mother, his own brooding, his own despair as an artist not having his spirits tempered?
-- Do you know if there is anything regarding this in his letters, Mir? (Oooo...this actually is a good point for my thesis. I can expand on the theory of repetition.)
I've always seen Tolkien's loss of friends during the Great War as being an influence on his work, lending that feeling of hopelessness and loss you see in the Silmarillion so frequently.
-- Do you know if there is anything regarding this in his letters, Mir?

JRRT considered that his mother had become a martyr for her faith. As far as i know, JRRT was only so influenced by his mother's death that he too become a devoted Catholic later on (his mother's family was originally protestant, but his mother conversed to Catholicism, which was not quite approved by the family) :


The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like 'religion', to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism. However that is very clumsily put, and sounds more self-important than I feel. For as a matter of fact, I have consciously planned very little; and should chiefly be grateful for having been brought up (since I was eight) in a Faith that has nourished me and taught me all the little that I know; and that I owe to my mother, who clung to her conversion and died young, largely through the hardships of poverty resulting from it.

(from letter 142)


I witnessed (half-comprehending) the heroic sufferings and early death in extreme poverty of my mother who brought me into the Church; and received the astonishing charity of Francis Morgan.3 But I fell in love with the Blessed Sacrament from the beginning – and by the mercy of God never have fallen out again: but alas! I indeed did not live up to it.

(from letter 250)
Thanks, Mir. You know, now that I'm thinking about it, can you think of any character in LOTR that has a mother present in the text? All of the members of the Fellowship don't have mother figures. Do you think this would hold them back as heroes if they did? Or perhaps they never would have gone on the journey in the first place?
Turin had a mother, though he lost her at an early age. Hmmmm...really nobody with a mother I can think of. Aragorn had a mother too, but she died in ?Rivendell? when he was young. I can't really think of anyone else.
Me thinks Tolkien's lack of a mother during his formative years meant he had a hole from which he had insuffiecient data to write about mother figures for his heroes. Mrs. Cotton, Mrs. Maggot, and Lobeila S-B, as well as Galadriel were the only mothers in LotR and not much was propounded about their motherhoods.
You know, now that I'm thinking about it, can you think of any character in LOTR that has a mother present in the text?

A lot of characters in LOTR lost one of their parents at some point.

-Sam had the Gaffer, his mother is dead at the moment of LOTR;
-Frodo's parents drowned when he was still a kid;
-Aragorn's father died when Aragorn was 2, his mother Gilraen died in 3007 T.A.;
-Elrond's parents ventured to Valinor and never came back when he was yet very young;
-Arwen's mother went into the west in 2510 T.A.;
-Faramir and Boromir lost their mother when Faramir was 5 and Boromir 10;
-Pippin's and Merry's parents are alive, i believe, and mentioned in the genealogy of the LOTR appendices;
-Gimli's mother is not mentioned, but his father Gloín was still alive;
-Legolas's father is Thranduil (alive), but his mother was never mentioned;
-Éomer and Éowyn lost both their parents at an early age as well;

Anyway, in most cases the parent(s) was/were replaced by someone else (Frodo : Bilbo; Aragorn : Elrond ; Éomer - Éowyn : Théoden)so imo they never suffered psychologically of the loss of their parents.

It is different for instance, with Fëanor and Maeglin - Fëanor got a new mother but he never loved her, whilst Maeglin never got any new parents.

Anyway, to answer your question : Gimli, Legolas, Merry, Pippin.

Turin had a mother, though he lost her at an early age.

Although she did not die until she was reunited with her husband Húrin near the place where his son had died.

For the same, Tuor lost his father Huor in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, after which his mother sent him out of Mithrim, to be raised by the Elves.
Anyway, in most cases the parent(s) was/were replaced by someone else (Frodo : Bilbo; Aragorn : Elrond ; Éomer - Éowyn : Théoden)so imo they never suffered psychologically of the loss of their parents.

I think they still suffered. Aragorn would not lack parental love from Elrond, and Theoden treated his sister's children quite well when he wasn't poisoned by grima's words No, they didn't lack love, but they wouldn't be able to forget their real parents, although some of them never even knew their parents. A replacement is just not the same. Do you notice that most of the replacements were male? Everyone would be lacking maternal love in their childhood.

But then again, maybe Tolkien didn't write about motherness because he didn't know too much about it...
Aragorn certainly didn't lack motherly love, as his mother died when he was 76, 11 years before the events of LOTR started.

Not to mention, Arwen could perhaps have acted as his mother, considering she was 2690 years older than him...

Maybe the lack of motherly love explains why Gimli revered Galadriel - living in a society where mothers and fathers look exactly the same, he immediately subconsciously treated Galadriel like his mother when he first met a non-Dwarf woman; no wonder he later on tried to hack Éomer to pieces - isn't anyone going mad when someone insults one's mother?
Well, basically Cloveress said everything I was going to say...about the male substitutes and such, which definitely aren't the same as mother figures. Bilbo did act as a stand-in parent for Frodo, but he could not take the place of his real parents, and I would say the same about the other parental substitutes as well.

Aragorn would still have endured psychological trauma from losing his mother. He had one for many years, you are right, but it's reason to miss her all the more.

I've heard many people say that Galadriel is definitely the mother figure for Gimli.

I think I'm just trying to figure out how the story would be different if the characters had mothers. Notice how marriage and relationships all make an entrance toward the end of the book -- the land is fertile once again.
Nice avatar, Mir! Smile Smilie
I think I'm just trying to figure out how the story would be different if the characters had mothers.

There wouldn't be much of a story left. The mothers would keep their heroic sons and daughters at home and tell them to do their home- and housework.

That is the reason why fantasy authors usually remove at least one of their hero(in)es' parents. The hero(in)es either have to avenge the death of their parent(s) and/or be raised by an eccentric, powerful or enigmatic person.

Aragorn would still have endured psychological trauma from losing his mother. He had one for many years, you are right, but it's even more reason to miss her all the more.

I believe it would grieve him, but not traumatize him, as with every loss of a close family member one has known throughout childhood and adulthood.

Of course he would miss his mother, but he wouldn't have been devoid of the love and warmth she gave her son - which he wouldn't have experienced had she died as early as his father.

Anyway, one could make an argument about Faramir and Boromir losing their mother at an early age : it seems that neither of them got traumatized; Faramir dealt with his grief by becoming an avid student and lover of books, poetry and music, whilst Boromir sought refuge in the art of combat and the great military history of Gondor - it is perhaps the death of their mother that really caused the characters of the brothers to become so different, and the following preference of Denethor towards his firstborn as he wasn't only his firstborn, but also because Denethor felt that great deeds in war were the only thing that could save Gondor, instead of books and harps.

If Finduilas hadn't died prematurely, there's a fair chance that Denethor would not have looked in the Palantir, as Denethor would not have taken the risk of doing it - he merely looked into the Palantir because he became grim, cold and cynical after his wife's death.

It is certainly true that a female touch here and there could've made a big difference to the events as described in LOTR.
Nice avatar, Mir! Smile Smilie
I agree, which one of the two grumpy old geezers is his avatar, Statler or Waldorf?
That is the reason why fantasy authors usually remove at least one of their hero(in)es' parents. The hero(in)es either have to avenge the death of their parent(s) and/or be raised by an eccentric, powerful or enigmatic person.

Hmmm...just like in fairy tales. This way, the journey has more psychological impact.
Pity JRRT didn't make use of the wicked stepmother, although Lobelia Sackville-Baggins comes real close.
Well, he certainly made use of wicked stepsons. Poor Indis...
Or maybe Indis, as a vintage wicked stepmother, forced Fëanor to tend the fireplace..

After all, he was the 'fire spirit' of the lot, hence he had a reputation to defend.
He could be the next "Cinderano"...
Although Tolkien had a loving marriage and a family from which he could have gained a better feminine insight, I think his experiences in the Great War played a greater part in his writing. LotR and even more so the Silmarillion, are about wars. The war Tolkien fought in was fought by men, so his characters are predominently men.

What sets Tolkien's books apart from many fairy stories is that they contain a lot of anguish in the form of the death of loved ones etc. It doesn't end happily ever after for many of his characters, just as is often doesn't in real life.
The end of LOTR is happy enough for me. Aragorn becoming king and marrying the fair lass with the pointy ears, Faramir marrying Éowyn, Gimli marrying Legolas, Sam marrying little Rosie, Merry marrying Pippin, Frodo and Bilbo moving to a nursery home on Tol Eresseä.. can't get any happier.
I agree, Val. The ending is different from the typical fairy story. It is very poignant, and more closely related to our own lives. It leaves us feeling hope for the future of Middle Earth, and yet a certain sadness for everything that has come before and has been lost. We mourn for the razing of The Shire, and the life that the hobbits used to live, yet this sadness is tempered with the joy of a more complete wisdom. We mourn for the loss of the elves, but since it is man's age in Middle Earth, there is hope that they may rise to a level of beauty and greatness that rivals that of the elves.
The "sailing away into the west to a mystical isle" ending is obviously inspired by Morgan le Fay sailing away with King Arthur to Avalon.

Notice how marriage and relationships all make an entrance toward the end of the book -- the land is fertile once again.

Yes, our virile heroes usually don't have time for singing serenades under balconies and peregrinations in the moonlight, when there are Orcs, Wargs, Balrogs and Nazgûl to slaughter... with the exception of Legolas, of course.
When I wrote that statement, I was waiting for this exact response from you. I knew it! Wink Smilie
Although, there's one relationship that does not start near the end of the book, but already sprouted 38 years before the events described in LOTR - the relationship between Arwen and Aragorn.

Not to mention, during the 3 month stay in Rivendell before the Fellowship took off, Aragorn prolly sang a lot of serenades and prolly ventured through the whole of Eriador with his pointy-eared sweetheart.

Around Rivendell, there must've been a lot of birch trees with "Aragorn + Arwen = FOREVER!" carved in the bark.

Lucky for them, Treebeard never found out.
The sorrows of young Maeglin

We find it difficult to express the emotions with which Idril's soul was agitated during the whole of this time, whether in relation to her husband or to her unfortunate cousin; although we are enabled, by our knowledge of her character, to understand their nature.

It is certain that she had formed a determination, by every means in her power to keep Maeglin at a distance; and, if she hesitated in her decision, it was from a sincere feeling of friendly pity, knowing how much it would cost him, indeed, that he would find it almost impossible to comply with her wishes. But various causes now urged her to be firm. Her husband preserved a strict silence about the whole matter; and she never made it a subject of conversation, feeling bound to prove to him by her conduct that her sentiments agreed with his.

The same day, which was the day before Mettarë, after Maeglin had been released from Angband, he came in the evening to Idril's house, and found her alone. She was busy preparing some little gifts for her husband and son, which were to be distributed to them on Mettarë. He began talking of the delight of the children, and of that age when the sudden appearance of the Mettarë-tree, decorated with fruit and sweetmeats, and lighted up with wax candles, causes such transports of joy. "You shall have a gift too, if you behave well," said Idril, hiding her embarrassment under sweet smile. "And what do you call behaving well? What should I do, what can I do, my dear Idril?" said he. "Tomorrow," she answered, "is Mettarë. Tuor and my son are all to be here, and my father too: there is a present for each; do you come likewise, but do not come before that time." Maeglin started. "I desire you will not: it must be so," she continued. "I ask it of you as a favour, for my own peace and tranquillity. We cannot go on in this manner any longer."

He turned away his face and walked hastily up and down the room, muttering indistinctly, "We cannot go on in this manner any longer!" Idril, seeing the violent agitation into which these words had thrown him, endeavoured to divert his thoughts by different questions, but in vain. "No, Idril!" he exclaimed; "I will never see you any more!" "And why so?" she answered. "We may -- we must see each other again; only let it be with more discretion. Oh! why were you born with that excessive, that ungovernable passion for everything that is dear to you?" Then, taking his hand, she said, "I entreat of you to be more calm: your talents, your understanding, your genius, will furnish you with a thousand resources. Be a man, and conquer an unhappy attachment toward a creature who can do nothing but pity you." He bit his lips, and looked at her with a gloomy countenance. She continued to hold his hand. "Grant me but a moment's patience, Maeglin," she said. "Do you not see that you are deceiving yourself, that you are seeking your own destruction? Why must you love me, me only, who belong to another? I fear, I much fear, that it is only the impossibility of possessing me which makes your desire for me so strong."

He drew back his hand, whilst he surveyed her with a wild and angry look. "'Tis well!" he exclaimed, "'tis very well! Did not Tuor furnish you with this reflection? It is profound, a very profound remark." "A reflection that any one might easily make," she answered; "and is there not a woman in the whole city who is at liberty, and has the power to make you happy? Conquer yourself: look for such a being, and believe me when I say that you will certainly find her. I have long felt for you, and for us all: you have confined yourself too long within the limits of too narrow a circle. Conquer yourself; make an effort: a short journey will be of service to you. Seek and find an object worthy of your love; then return hither, and let us enjoy together all the happiness of the most perfect friendship."

"This speech," replied Maeglin with a cold smile, "this speech should be printed, for the benefit of all teachers. My dear Idril, allow me but a short time longer, and all will be well." "But however, Maeglin," she added, "do not come again before Mettarë." He was about to make some answer, when Tuor came in. They saluted each other coldly, and with mutual embarrassment paced up and down the room. Maeglin made some common remarks; Tuor did the same, and their conversation soon dropped. Tuor asked his wife about some household matters; and, finding that his commissions were not executed, he used some expressions which, to Maeglin's ear, savoured of extreme harshness. He wished to go, but had not power to move; and in this situation he remained till Aduial, his uneasiness and discontent continually increasing. At length the cloth was laid for supper, and he stood up to leave. Tuor invited him to remain; but Maeglin, fancying that he was merely paying a formal compliment, thanked him coldly, and left the house.

Maeglin returned to his house, took the candle from his servant, and retired to his room alone. He talked for some time with great earnestness to himself, wept aloud, walked in a state of great excitement through his chamber; till at length, without undressing, he threw himself on the bed, where he was found by his servant at Minuial, when the latter ventured to enter the room, and take off his boots. Maeglin did not prevent him, but forbade him to come in the morning till he should ring.
Around Rivendell, there must've been a lot of birch trees with "Aragorn + Arwen = FOREVER!" carved in the bark.

Lucky for them, Treebeard never found out.

hey,Daeron sang lots of serenades for Luthien...
Wrong strategy. As Lúthien acted quite hard-to-get, he should've ignored her the entire time. That would've driven her right into his slender, velvet covered arms.

In order to attract a person from the opposite sex, it's sometimes necessary to repel.
Where did you get the Sorrows of Young Maeglin from, Mir? I don't recall coming across that version before.
That's just a piece of applicability i concocted myself, based on Goethe's Die Leiden des Jungen Werther (the sorrows of young Werther) .
Explains why I didn't recognise it as something I'd already read Smile Smilie Fooled me enough to go searching through HOME, though.
Well, we all know what books Mir reads now. Goethe?? Whoa, my mom was trying to get me to read that...but now it's still sitting on my shelf gathering dust...maybe when I'm a bit older...
The Two Gentlemen of Gondolin

Scene Forty

Enter Tuor, Maeglin, Idril, Aredhel

How use doth breed a habit in a man?
This shadowy desert, unfrequented woods
I better brook than flourishing peopled towns:
Here can I sit alone, unseen of any,
and to the Eagles complaining notes.
Tune my distresses, and record my woes.
O thou that dost inhabit in my brest,
leave not the mansion so long tenantless,
lest growing ruinous, the building falls,
and leave no memory of what it was,
repair me, with thy presence, Idril:
thou gentle Elf, cherish thy forlorn swain.
What hallowing, and what stir is this to day?
These are my mates, that make their wills their Law,
have some unhappy passenger in chace;
They love me well:
yet I have much to do
to keep them from uncivil outrages.
Withdraw thee Tuor: who's this comes here?

Madam, this service I have done for you
(Though you respect not aught your servant doth)
To hazard life, and rescue you from him,
that would have forc'd your honour, and your love,
vouchsafe me for my meed, but one fair look :
(A smaller boon then this I cannot beg,
And less than this, I am sure you cannot give.)

How like a dream is this? I see, and hear:
love, lend me patience to forbear a while

O miserable, unhappy that I am

Unhappy were you (Madam) ere I came:
but by my coming, I have made you happy

By thy approach thou mak'st me most unhappy

And me, when he approcheth to your presence

Had I been ceazed by a hungry Balrog,
I would have been a breakfast to the Beast,
rather than have false Maeglin rescue me:
Oh heaven be judge how I love Tuor,
whose life's as tender to me as my soul,
and full as much (for more there cannot be)
I do detest false perjur'd Maeglin :
therefore be gone, sollicit me no more

What dangerous action, stood it next to death
would I not undergo, for one calm look :
Oh 'tis the curse in Love, and still approv'd
when women cannot love, where they're belov'd

When Maeglin cannot love, where he's belov'd :
read your mother’s heart, (thy first best Love)
for whose dear sake, thou didst than rend thy faith
into a thousand oaths; and all those oaths,
descended into perjury, to love me,
thou hast no faith left now, unless thou'dst two,
and that's far worse than none: better have none
than plural faith, which is too much by one:
thou Counterfeit, to thy true friend

In Love, who respects friend?

All men but Maeglin

Nay, if the gentle spirit of moving words
can no way change you to a milder form;
I’ll woo you like Eöl, at armes end,
and love you 'gainst the nature of Love: force ye

Oh heaven

I’ll force thee yield to my desire

Let go that rude uncivil touch,
thou friend of an ill fashion !

Tuor ? !

Thou common friend, that's without faith or love,
for such is a friend now: treacherous man,
thou hast beguil'd my hopes; nought but mine eye
could have persuaded me: now I dare not say
I have one friend alive; thou wouldst disprove me:
who should be trusted, when one’s right hand
is perjured to the bossom? Maeglin,
I am sorry I must never trust thee more,
but count the world a stranger for thy sake:
the private wound is deepest: oh time, most accurst.
'Mongst all foes that a friend should be the worst?

My shame and guilt confounds me:
forgive me Tuor : if hearty sorrow
be a sufficient ransom for offence,
I tender't here: I do as truely suffer,
as ere I did commit

Then I am paid:
and once again, I do receive thee honest;
who by Repentance is not satisfied,
is nor of heaven, nor earth; for these are pleas'd:
by Penitence th' Eternalls wrath's appeas'd:
and that my love may appear plain and free,
all that was mine, in Idril, I give thee

Oh me unhappy !
Impressive, Mir. You know, one work of Shakespeare's that I have never read is The Two Gentlemen of Verona. Tuor's opening dialogue is great. Love it.
I never read that either. But I suppose next old Mir is going to make a Romeo/Juliet scene out of Beren and Luthien, or maybe even A Midsummer Night's Dream for the whole Aragorn/Arwen/Eowyn/Faramir thing?
Nah, the whole suicide stuff in Romeo and Juliet, and the whole shtick of falling in love with a guy with the face of a donkey in Midsummer Night's Dream doesn't quite work out.

Besides, that doesn't even belong in this thread. This is the love triangle thread.

Fourth Act, Second Scene

Enter Tuor, and Idril in her bed

It is the Cause, it is the Cause (my Soul)
Let me not name it to you, you chased stars,
it is the Cause. Yet I’ll not shed her blood,
nor scar that skin of hers, whiter than snow,
and smooth as monumental alabaster:
Yet she must die, else she'll betray more men:
put out the light, and then put out the light:
if I quench thee, thou flaming minister,
I can again thy former light restore,
should I repent me. But once put out thy light,
thou cunning'st pattern of excelling nature,
I know not where is that Promethean heat
that can thy light relume.
When I have pluck'd thy rose,
I cannot give it vital growth again,
it needs must wither. I’ll smell thee on the tree.
Oh balmy breath, that dost almost persuade
justice to break her sword. One more, one more:
be thus when thou art dead, and I will kill thee,
and love thee after. One more, and that's the last.
So sweet, was ne're so fatal. I must weep,
but they are cruel tears: this sorrow's heavenly,
it strikes, where it doth love. She wakes.

Who's there? Tuor?

I, Celebrindal

Will you come to bed, my Lord?

Have you pray'd to Elbereth, Celebrindal?

I have, my Lord

If you bethink your self of any crime
unreconcil'd as yet to Mandos, and Vairë,
solicit for it straight

Alas, my Lord,
What may you mean by that?

Well, do it, and be brief, I will walk by:
I would not kill thy unprepared Spirit,
No, Mandos forfend I would not kill thy Soul

Talke you of killing?

Aye, I do

Then Elbereth, have mercy on me

Amen, with all my heart

If you say, I hope you will not kill me


And yet I fear you: for you're fatal then
when your eyes roll so.
Why I should fear, I know not,
since guiltiness I know not:
but yet I feel I fear

Think on thy sins

They are Loves I bear to you

Aye, and for that thou die’st

That death's unnatural, that kills for loving.
Alas, why gnaw you so your nether lip?
one bloody passion shakes your very frame:
these are portents: but yet I hope, I hope,
they do not point on me

Peace, and be still

I will so: what's the matter?

That green Elfstone
which I so lov'd, and gave thee, thou gav'st to Maeglin

No by my Life, and Soul: send for the man,
and ask him

Sweet Soul, take heed, take heed of perjury,
thou art on thy death bed

Aye, but not yet to die

Therefor confess thee freely of thy sin:
for to deny each article with Oath,
cannot remove, nor choke the strong conception
that I do grone withal.
Thou art to die

O Elbereth have mercy on me

I say, Amen

And have you mercy too. I never did
offend you in my life: never lov'd Maeglin,
but with such general warranty of Elbereth,
as I might love. I never gave him token

By Elbereth I saw my Elfstone in's hand.
O perjur'd she-elf, thou do'st stone my heart,
and makes me call, what I intend to do,
a murder, which I thought a sacrifice.
I saw the Elfstone.

He found it then: I never gave it him:
Send, for him hither: let him confess a truth

He has confessed

What, my Lord?

That he has used thee

How? Unlawfully?


He will not say so

No: his mouth is stopped: honest Glorfindel has ordered it

Oh, my fear interprets. What, is he dead?

Had all his hairs been lives, my great revenge
had stomach for them all

Alas, he is betray'd, and I undone

Out strumpet: weep'st thou for him to my face?

O banish me, my Lord, but kill me not

Down, strumpet !

Kill me tomorrow, let me live tonight

Nay, if you strive

But half an hour

Being done, there is no pause

But while I say one prayer

It is too late.

(Smothers her)
Was Tuor a Muor? Was another of the names for his black sword "Iago"? Elf With a Big Grin Smilie
Cute, although Tuor never wielded a black sword. That was his nephew, Túrin.
Was Tuor a Muor?

Good one, Grondy! Big Laugh Smilie
Iago is truly a master of deceit - and disguise. It's remarkable how he fled Cyprus and became the parrot of Jafar, sorceror of the Sultan of Agrabah - and again he would betray his master, this time to Aladdin.
So, Mir...what in the world do you do for a living? Do you have a little spare time on your hands? Or are all of these creations (and/or creativity) just lying around, awaiting a moment to spring them on us and amaze us with your talent?
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