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Thread: Women of Arda Influence

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I want to start a discussion on the women (from all races even Vala) and how they affected the history and the male characters decisions from 1st-4th Age. Examples: Morwen- How she affected her husband and son. Arwen-How she affected her father her future husband..and others Galadrial-How she affected the fellowship (comprised of all males) other women "females"

Hmm, this sounds pretty interesting. I want to be part of this, at least.

So, I'll come back to this thread by tomorrow, probably on evening.

Here is my tribute to this thread:

Finduilas (of the House of Dol Amroth)

She was daughter of Prince Adrahil II, sister of Prince Imrahil of Dol Amroth. She was named after an elven maiden who lived in the First Age (that Finduilas's faith is described in Narn i hin Hurin). Finduilas of Dol Amroth was born around 2950 of the Third Age and married to Denethor, son of Ectelion II - Lord and Steward of Gondor. In 2984 she became the Lady of Gondor with her husband inheriting the Stewardship of Gondor after his father's death. By that time she gave birth to both her sons. Her older son Boromir of Gondor, who became great leader and warrior in later days, being the firstborn was very much loved and appreciated by his father. It is about her care for her second son that I have chosen to present her here. In 2983 of the Third Age she gave birth to Faramir, who was neglected by his own father and left out of father's care. So Finduilas of Dol Amroth took great care for the boy, trying to the best of her abilities to raise him properly.

Her husband Denethor loved her deeply, though he did not presented that very well until she died in 2988 of the Third Age (leaving her boys 10 and 5 years old respectively). Her death was unexpected (specially given the fact of her Dunedain blood) and left the Steward of Gondor in deep grief, one that he carried for the rest of his days. Though being young in age by that time Denethor never remarried. Some say that after this moment he closed himself for the world and turned towards old knowledge, eventually starting to use the Palantir of the White Tower. The rest is history...

Where did you get that Denethor neglected Faramir when he was a child?

It is not exactly straight mentioned in the books. This is how I have imagined the childhood of Faramir. His father, ever busy with politics or spending time with Boromir, leaving him behind. So in his very early years he was left on the care of his mother (and eventually to a nanny after she died). Faramir dreamed of the Sea and Finduilas was always dreaming about the sea (she was born on shore).

From Appendix A of LotR we know, that tough Faramir was more keen to lore like his father, still Boromir was favored and Faramir neglected (if not disliked). In "183 Notes on W. H. Auden's review of The Return of the King" Tolkien makes a remark about "...Denethor was tainted with mere politics: hence his failure, and his mistrust of Faramir...". None of these sources are hard evidence to the point I made above. I am sorry about that, I should have written above about this particular speculation of mine.

The historical facts from my post come from LotR Appendixes.

My favrorite lady is Ancalime, and even though she had her emotional problems inherited from her beautiful and unfortunate mother Erendis, I still love her.

Ancalime, the name from Quenya meaning something like' brightest one' was in fact the seventh ruler of Numenor, the FIRST ruling Queen .

Born in the spring of 873 of the second age she was the only child of Tar-Alarion and Erendis. Apparently she was renowned for her exquisite beauty.

Her father and mother's marriage was a total example of the wrong person's marrying. Her father, although ruler of Numenor was enamoured with the sea and in his travels ship building and the elves, particularly the alliance of Gil-Galad and the elves of Lindon. He would take off after the marriage and be gone for very very long periods, upsetting his father and mother and it would devestate Erendis to the point her utter love and longing for her husband turned to hate and despising him and in time all men in general.

When she was about three or four I think her daddy the mariner at heart once more set sail, inspiring other hard and fast Numenorian fellows to become more  in love with the sea than with their Home and this time he did not come back until Ancalime was nine years of age. Her mother took the child from the royal residence of Armenilos to the country in a place lush with pasture and sheep to live in a large white house in Emerie, staff with a minimum of servants and all of them female. No men were ever allowed in the place and consequently Ancalime knew nothing of men. She became more and more like mummy and did not fancy marriage. Instead she roamed freely and innocently the pasture lands and at times helped a girl shepherd with the sheep. Now however she was exposed to males because her father got his way and saw to it that the child who now did not know him came part time to the royal residence to live and interact with him and grandmama and grandfather.

Although she shunned men there was a certain shepherd young man that she encountered and was intrigued by and his words of poetry/singing totally enchanted the girl.

Her father meantime changed a law of succession which had previously stated that only males could inherit the Sceptre and rule. Now the eldest child, male or female could and at nineteen she became a sort of successor acting as a regent when her father went sailing again.

This shepherd Ancalime was intrigued with was in fact a royal himself Hallacar and she ended up marrying him, only to be in anguish when finding out of the deception. They could not stand one another much after that and parted ways.

In the year 1075 Ancalime was passed the Sceptre and became the first Queen of Numinor. She had become understandably a little hard to deal with and generally thwarted or attempted to the counsel of any men, and she shunned many of the alliances forged by her father including as mentioned the important one with Gil-Galad and the Lindon elves.

I felt so sorry for her life and was reminded of how just one incident can change the very course of history. What might have happened if her father had stayed home and taken care of business and been a good husband to Erendis. How their love might have forged a great great ruler in their child and blessed all Numenor is a delight for me to contemplate on. But alas, it never happened.

Morwen of the House of Bëor

The mother of Túrin and wife of Húrin, she was a strong female lead in The Children of Húrin (Narn I Hîn Húrin). Her choices in the tale affect Túrin  and all of Hithlum. Her defiance to the Easterlings kept them from completely "ruling" Hithlum, until she left seeking Túrin. Her being alive kept Húrin "sane" while forced to watch Morgoth's Hand spread his malice. When Morwen seeked Túrin, Belegost was "forced" to keep her safe, thus affecting his movements for a time in Belerind. The "thought"  of Morwen and her daughter in danger while Túrin  was under the Dragonspell pushed him back home, keeping him away from saving Finduilas. She was there with Húrin when they found the body of Túrin and she died in Húrin's arms, despairing the loss of her children.

I believe the women who had the most influence in Arda was Galadriel. It is said that she even inspired Feanor to make the silmarils, she helped Eorl the young to aid Gondor, brought Gandalf to his new status (giving him white clothes and a new staff, besides that she knew it from the beginning that Gandalf should held that position, but alas her affect that time was not that big, but at least she tried ;-) . Besides that it must have been frustrating for her. Always she warns others about some matters, in Valinor she warned about feanor, in Eriandor she warns about Annatar in the white consil she warns about Saruman, but nobody listens. In people of Eriandor even revolt against her (in some versions).

In my opinion she is a lot more fasctinating and important that Luthien. OK, Luthien was great, loveley and all that and I really even like her, but what did she do? OK her descendants are really important and her line will never fail, but she never helped other the way Galadriel did. Of course she saved Beren, but that was for love and everybody would have done the same at least would have tried that. I think Luthien is overrated (Ok the Prof. thought otherwise) but I really don´t get what people find about her.

When Luthien sacrificed herself for her own interests ( her love) Galadriel sacrificed herself (her dream of ruling in ME) for all Men. Can somebody explain me why Luthien is considered as the greatest and most important?  Is it for her offspring and that she stole one Silmaril from Morgoths Crown. Without that Silmaril would Earendil have failed to convince the Valar to face Morgoth. I always believed it was because of his heritage that he with Elwing was able to go to Valinor.

OK, all that is not the point of this thread, but in affecting other people Galadriel is No 1. She is the elf that ends the long rift between elfs and dwarfs, helps the Aragon beside the others to become king, overall she cares so much for everything and she has no advantage of that. So to speak she "fights" for a land that was not her own. Always remembers me a bit of Jeanne d´ Arc. :-)

Tar-Miriel is a fave of mine.  "Fairer than silver or ivory or pearls" Another example of how Tolkien can envelope horror and beauty in few word. "And last of all the mounting wave, green and cold and plumed with foam, climbing over the land, took to its bosom Tar-Miriel the Queen - Too late she strove to ascend the steep ways of the Meneltarma to the holy place; for the waters over took her, and her cry was lost in the roaring of the wind"

Yes, I agree Nerwen; although I love Luthien; Galadriel was amazing.

She was no goody-goody; she left Valinor against the ban of the Valar, even though she was no friend of Feanor; and she took no part in the kin slaying at Alqulonde...(If i remember rightly her mother was one of the people of Alqulonde?)...anyway, she still came under the ban of the Valar.

If Sauron got the Ring, then Lothlorien was doomed...but if the ring was destroyed, then Lothlorien would fade...in fact, the only way she can save Lothlorien is by taking the ring form Frodo; and he actually offers it to her !!

How she resisted this temptation, i do not know...it was one of the most amazing scenes in the book; and one of the Professor's greatest pieces of writing....even in the film, i note they did not change a single word...how could you ?

In the end Galadriel is granted pardon; and is allowed to take ship....

Why I am telling you stuff, you all already know ?....ha, ha...lol...I guess it's because we just love sharing memories on this thread....?


She was no goody-goody; she left Valinor against the ban of the Valar, even though she was no friend of Feanor; and she took no part in the kin slaying at Alqulonde...(If i remember rightly her mother was one of the people of Alqulonde?)...anyway, she still came under the ban of the Valar. 


Just to add: she was even a leader of the Rebel Noldor, for which role she was specially banned from sailing Oversea at the end of the First Age, when other Noldor could return Oversea.

The question of her part (any part) in the Kinslaying can be a bit confusing, but here I'll just say that in one 'phase' of Galadriel's history (the best phase in my opinion) she appears to have taken no part whatsoever in the Kinslaying.

Yes, Galin, I think I prefer that version; it seems the Professor toyed with several different ideas with regard to the Galadriel story...(it is one of the the most confused stories in the whole Canon)...I think you are right Galin; I do not believe she would have been involved in the Kinslaying.

She was granted a pardon in the end, and allowed to sail to Valinor because of the help she gave to Frodo; and because she refused the temptation to take the ring...

I am so glad she was allowed to return......

Incidentally did I read somewhere, or I did i dream it, that Legolas & Gimli were allowed to sail to the Undying Lands... I remember reading these lines somewhere,,,"(If this is true, then it is most extraordinary that a dwarf would leave Middle Earth for any love....or that The Powers of Arda would admit him....)" 

I am quoting from memory now.. I may have got this wrong....

I might add that when Tolkien did consider that Galadriel had a role in the Kinslaying, it was in defense of Swanhaven that she fought; and it's not explicitly noted that she actually killed any Elves even in defense of the Teleri -- at least, one can fight bravely without necessarily killing I would say.

Still, in the 1950s phase of the history (generally speaking), it seems clear enough to me that the 'Finarfinians' or Galadriel and her brothers were simply not present when this slaying of Elves by Elves took place. And I think this idea was best, as I say.

I generally like the version where Galadriel was a leader in the rebellion better than the more softened version. At times I like Tolkien latest idea, but I like the theory that Celeborn was a prince of Doriath too much and the imagination that they fell in love there. And it´s a little bit strange that in Tolkien later version they would be first cousins.

In the earliest version Galadriel is not necesarilly a worse person IMO. Her motives remain the same, she at no point in the history wanted to do bad things, she wanted her own realm and exercise her talents in the first version, she only encouraged others to do the same  if they want to. She never held any grudge against the valar and looked up upon them as was the case before. This, I think, became noticeable in her "love" or respect  for the dwarfs ( she was after all a pupil of Aule) and in her love for plants ( she was a pupil of Yavanna too).

She even played a role in the decision if Gimli would be able to come to Valinor. Tolkien stated this:

´´and it may be that she, being mighty among the Eldar, obtained this grace for him.´´  This IMO shows the she again has a good relationship with the valar. Some could think that it is not the case, because of the past.

I think the penitent rebel is much superior to Tolkien's very late (and only adumbrated) 'Galadriel unstained' idea, in which she is not part of the Rebellion...

... but moreover Tolkien had possibly forgotten that he had already published Galadriel as a leader of the Rebellion, and was specially banned for this; and also already published that Celeborn was Sindarin (thus not a Telerin Elf from Aman).


What JRRT hadn't published was detail concerning Galadriel's role, if any, in the Kinslaying -- so he could have altered the 1950s idea easily enough, even if I might disagree with doing so.  

The deep friendship of Legolas and Gimli was amazing and rare and reminded me of Prince Jonathan and King David in the bible. To think that a creature from two different groups that traditionally had their problems could have that much love for one another that they could not bear to be parted  and away they sailed over the sea to the undying lands. beautiful.

Sorry, that is not the topic, but I have to ask.  I read somewhere, that Gandalf, at the End of ROTK supposedly stated this:

...in the end when he (Gandalf) stands with Aragorn at the hill near Minas Tirith he says to him that his time in ME is almost over because this age was his age for he was the Enemy of Sauron.

I think he saying this is arrogant, Frodo, Galadriel, Aragon and Elrond were as much an enemy to sauron as Gandalf was and this beeing his age? He even wasn´t present the entire age. I don´t know, I would rather say that it was Galadriels age, she resists the temptation of the one ring and was able to go home!

I often read that gandalf was held for arrogant, but in the past I didn´t know what to think about that, but to this statement of Gandalf I have to disagree.

Newen I dont believe that Gandalf was arrogant in this or any other statements which he made during the third age.  He is simply stating the fact that the third age was the age in which his spirit was allowed to occupy middle earth physically.  Whilst in the West Gandalf (Olorin), a Maia, would have been fully aware of the going on in Middle Earth and chose to inhabit Middle Earth "Physically" as Gandalf in the struggle against the Dark forces.

You should read the Sil or The History of Middle Earth, a lot of this is explained there..

But for me it sounds as if he says: That was MY age (I am the biggest hero of the third age) and I ( only me) was THE enemy of sauron. But probably tolkien articulated that disadvantageous. The silmatillion I read ( much greater than LOTR IMO the other book, alas, isn´t available in german,