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but since Eowyn and Faramir will be no where near as good lookin' as Aragorn and Arwen, i don't think there'll be THAT much tension goin' on. yeah Sean Bean's a hottie
Please take this very rare compliment graciously!
I liked her too. She gave the book a human female touch, ie, she showed traits and frailtys like falling in love with the wrong guy, anger at being patronised by her brother and uncle and rebelliousness by following her father anyway. She was also very brave. Cant see me fighting a Nazgul, I think I would have hid and hoped it would go away. Who says Tolkien's women were all old-fashioned and weak? Eowyn is modern and strong enough for even 2002 tastes.
I always wondered if there was a reason she was so much more faceted than the other women. Not that I don't trust Tolkien's ability to create a full-rounded female character, but most of his others are such lofty, idealized creatures (or they're big bugs). Eowyn is lightyears beyond the others in personality. Did Tolkien know some tough, passionate, fierce lady who impressed him? Some scholar who braved the halls of tweed, maybe? (a spiritual grandmother for me!) His wife sounds like she was sweet and kind, but not really an Eowyn.
um... done ranting now. heh.
Hmm, I read somewhere that Edith wasn't as strait-laced as I thought...seemed that JRR based the story of Luthien & Beren on Edith dancing for him in some moonlit grove. So maybe she had other qualities that we don't know about...
I sometimes wonder why Tolkien chose to depict some of his strongest females as bugs. Maybe he thought that male readers of that era would instinctively resist identifying with too many non-stereotypical female characters, and thus chose to represent them in -albeit grotesque - forms that they would be able to accept. Boys *do* tend to be fascinated, instead of repulsed, by spiders & bats.
Or maybe Tolkien was simply old-fashioned and balked at the idea of portraying evil in a womanly form. But I also try to imagine how a LoTR full of well-rounded, complex women would have fared in the '40s and '50s. Would it have been as successful?
I think you're probably right that his audience wouldn't have been comfortable with a large number of strong-willed, non-conformist women characters. Arwen's the perfect courtly princess, and I can see how she would have been appealing in a world that was scarred by war, and changing much faster than Tolkien (and his peers) liked. And the spider-ladies certainly have a long (indirect) genealogy of ensnaring evil women, particularly in the Arthur mythos. I suppose Tolkien was writing in the "language" he knew best, in which will and fallability were male traits, and women who held them were often less than admirable. So bravo to him for making Eowyn so wonderful!
PS- Ungoliant- I like your name. Always liked those spider-ladies!
Concerning Eowyn - loved her character although I'm not sure she's as entirely "cool" as you make her out to be. Although not your regular Tolkien character, she 's still basically a n Amazonic kind of portrayal. (Now I haven't re-read Book 3 in a few years so all this is from memory) Sure she stands up to the male postAuthorIDities of Rohan but the way I see it is written is that Eowyn, learning that Aragorn will not "marry" her has decided life is no longer worth living and she wants to go off and die in combat. HAving survived she is disappointed but is "saved" becasue of Faramir......
MMMM - not too sure this is a "strong " a female character as you make her out to be. Strongheaded yes - but in the way of Tolkien - which basically means she's thick skinned, silly, doesn't understand all thats going on around her and needs a good man to put her right. Wonder what life is like back in Ithilien with Farmair and Eowyn. ?
I like Eowyn. In ROTK she saw that Merry had the same feeling about staying behind as she did and so smuggled him to the front. If you want to understand what Eowyn was feeling, read Merry's account. It may make you feel a little more sympathetic to her.
Oh, and it turns out I've seen Miranda Otto in What Lies Beneath and The Jack Bull (John Cusack as a cowboy!)... and I don't remember her in either. That's either really good or really bad. I want to see TTT NOW! Argh!
interesting points, and having throughly re-read the book, I must say i find Eowyn a little annoying. She's always so sad and gloomy, with all that mumbo jumbo about clouds and etc. ok, i know she's been through a lot but she first moved Faramir with pity (which is the traditional emotion in the Elizabethan courtship) and then he falls in love with her for reasons unknown, probably because he thought she was hot. Even when she slays the Nazgul king, everyone's like she met a foe greater than she is in strength, blah blah blah. not all that much glory there, either? all in all, i don't like the way tolkien treats his women characters and the way he's so hoity toity about the royal blood and ancient lineage.
argh! been ranting without making too much sense. anyway, Eowyn's much better than Arwen's character in the book, and I hope in the movie they do something better with her.
Does anyone remember any other named females with speaking parts, other than the following: Lobelia, Mrs. Maggot, Goldberry, Arwen, Galadriel, Eowyn, Shelob (non-speaking but has an active part), Ioreth, Mrs. Cotton, and Rosie.
Could you have remembered all these had I asked you to name them? I remembered all their names but had to look to determine that Lobelia and the other two married Shire ladies actually had speaking parts.
This was off topic but probably not for long, unless I missed a bunch.
the list is quite short, eh..
... Theoden named Eomer his heir and called him king. In that day Eowyn also won renown, for she fought in the battle, riding in disguise; and was known after in the Mark as the Lady of the Shield-arm.*
*For her shield-arm was broken by the mace of the Witch-king; but he was brought to nothing, and thus the words of Glorfindal long before to King Earnur were fulfilled, that the Witch-king would not fall by the hand of man. For it is said in the songs of the Mark that in this deed Eowyn had the aid of Theoden's esquire, and that he also was not a Man but a Halflling out of a far country, though Eomer gave him honour in the Mark and the name of Holdwine. (This Holdwine was none other than Meriadoc the Magnificent who was Master of Buckland.)
under 2991-F.A.63(3084) Eomer Eadig
Skwrl: I knew you were going to pick-up on that. I had thought of writing 'with Merry to the fore,' but figured you would call me for mis-spelling ford. How about 'with Merry in the front', or better yet 'with Merry to the front'. :P [Edited on 9/2/2002 by Grondmaster]
Me guessing Faramir will not play that bigga role...
i'm sure there's more but can't think of any.
On the topic of Aussie actors, anyone know any recent movies that Nicholas Rogers acted in? Or if he's still alive?
In Tolkien's works a great emphasis is laid on the contrat between egocentric desire of renown (and personal prstige) - and real heroism (fulfilling one's duty even if it is dull and unpleasant and unrewarded). Aragorn tells this plainly to Eovyn at their partung, but the same theme appears also in the short play "THe homecoming of Beorthnoth, Beorthhelm's son", and in the contrast between Turin (rash and destructive) and his aunt Aerin Indor's daughter (a patient, meek wife of an Easterling Brodda who is yet courageous enough to live in thraldom and to help constantly her people.
Really mature people do not desire renown. In the North Aragorn is walking incognito in mud-stained clothes and is scorned by Bree villagers. Frodo hides his mithril-coat under his ordinary hobbit tunic...
What is the house of Eorl but a thatched barn where brigands drink in the reek, and their brats roll on the floor among the dogs?
I do not believe she went unrecognized. Someone must have wondered, 'What ever happened to the Lord of the Nazgul, you know, that scary guy what rode the flying monster?' Or were she and Merry so tight lipped that the deed was thought done by Theoden? Not that he could ever fulfill the prophesy, being trapped under Snowmane and being of the wrong gender.
I think Eowyn is a much greater character than Arwen and PJ d*mn well better let her 'off' the Nazgul's head and crown or there will be hell to pay.
I can agree that Eowyn continued to fight for a good cause when she went to Mundburg... but it was not her duty (unless we assume as Grondmaster did that she departed only after initating some second-in-command in all important matters). Now that I think about it, she must have done that. Otherwise this would be simply criminal - imagine how Rohirrim would feel when discovering that Lady Eowyn is just gone without a word! Imagine a Rohirrim mother having a sick child which cannot be cured because Eowyn left without telling anybody where are the keys for the store iof the medicaments!
But of course if some competent person replaced her... the things look different. Yes, I think that Grondmaster is right (as usual) - she must have done that!...
Anyway, she was really the worst choice for a steward so perhaps it was really better for everybody to let her go with the army...
I wonder what happened to her after the war. Am I right that se and Faramir did not have children?
How do you like to imagine her inviting crowds of war orphans - both Gondorians and Rohirrims - to camp together in Ithilien? Both boys and girls would love her... and I think that Faramir would be delighted as well!
But seriously though - I still think that she & Faramir opened that pub. And she's the bouncer.
As a former warrior (I'm assuming semi pro baseball is the modern "American" equivelant of war training)and a mom of several "screaming brats" I think it would suit Eowyn fine. There's nothing quite like it. I like it a lot. (I do quite relate to Eowyn...)
Of course, everyone has their own views on the desirability of children. As for me...well, Eowyn killed the Witch King, so I think she's be quite resentful if she was expected to have any. I'd rather keep my comforting vision of her riding though Ithilen, hewing Orc necks while Faramir looks after the kids (if any). At least Eowyn had it easy though, if they had kids - good maids were sooo easy to find back then.
you are really terrific! I really LOVE your comment, every word of it!
Eowyn as a bar tender - yes (she seems to be pretty good in mixing the stirrupcups...).
But I can't imagine Eowyn seeking pleasure in threatening poor tenants of Faramir...
She killed the Witch King,yeah!!!!l If you have killed a tiger with a penknife you
won't seek plesure in hunting for flies on a kitchen table! [(I am speaking
from experience of course ]
And then... do you remember what she toldl to Faramir on the walls of Minas Tirith?
I will be a shieldmaiden no longer, nor vie with the great riders, nor take joy
only in the songs of slaying. I will be a healer, and love all things that grow and are
Well if she herself felt so!... But it seems that she and Faramir had no children...
Has anybody more information about it? I found it somewhere on the www pages,
together with a very fine pencil drawing of Faramir - not exactly like I imagine him,
but decent enough...
If so, the idea of her taking care of war orphans seemed quite plausible... She could be
then both mother (adoptive) and healer. And the kids may be quite nice - Bergil son of
Beregond was not that bad at all!
I did not understand anything from your last postBody.
I must be completely stupid - how very frustrating (sob)
Don't get me wrong - I take my hat off to anyone who wants to be a full time mom. But for me, I reckon that life for my favourite heroine would be dull indeed at home with hundreds of 'screaming brats' after such heroic deeds on the battlefield. Surely she needs time to adjust? A horde of kids would probably drive her out of her mind.
I have no idea what happened to her after LotR - so I'll keep my vision of her as a bouncer/rent collector/Orc exterminator.
And of course she would not have to be a" full time mom" - she was after all a princess
and that means a lot of helpers at hand!! I think she might arrange things to get
the maximum of pleasure. And I do not imagine her with screaming babies, but with
nice lively 10-14 year olds. She could enjoy with them all sorts of exciting war games,
a little bit as we enjoy them now during the "survival" holidays.
But of course this is a free world and everybody has right to his own vision of the heroes,
so I am simply telling you what comes to my mind... and it's so thrilling to read all
the comments!... and in particular those which present different views!!!!
But every time I found an argument in this thread I didn't agree with, the next post beat me to my counter-argument. So, alas, no ranting for me today. Darn. No more weeks off, I guess.
I still regret being too dumb to appreciate your joke...
But don't sell yourself short! I've quoted you, Plastic and Grondmaster in my classes (giving all the proper credit- fear not, Taz!) and my students are very impressed by you. Except Plastic's name. That they just laughed at. Who knows, by the end of the term I might have quoted everyone. And my students might all be posting too! Now that's scary!
"Its all a misunderstanding, I was quoted out of context."
I assume we were used as the examples of how not to do it.
I assume we were used as the examples of how not to do it.
You can say that again!
Or a lesson in the art of going off topic perhaps?
Me? Quoted in a lesson? :o I hope you edited out all the f***s!
*wonders what the world is coming too*
So Eowyn as a healer then? Can't see that happening, sorry. I don't see the women who killed the Witch King as a healer...