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Plastic, a compliment ... mmmm. well I'll take that as being Friday night blues. According to the post it was after midnight, Friday night and you're on the forum. Lets put it down to melancholy. Lets here the "devil" in ya!
David Wenham...never heard of him. Though i feel like i should've.. you know, living in Australia and watching Aussie tv and everything..
but since Eowyn and Faramir will be no where near as good lookin' as Aragorn and Arwen, i don't think there'll be THAT much tension goin' on. yeah Sean Bean's a hottie Big Smile Smilie
I do actually really like Eowyn, I just have a habit of playing Devil's Advocate around here a lot, you'll get used to it! And we need more well-argued posts like yours Jehanne (and most of yours actually Huan) tis a breath of fresh air around here.
Please take this very rare compliment graciously! Smile Smilie
Don't know much about Miranda Otto, but am interested in your thoughts about Eowyn

I liked her too. She gave the book a human female touch, ie, she showed traits and frailtys like falling in love with the wrong guy, anger at being patronised by her brother and uncle and rebelliousness by following her father anyway. She was also very brave. Cant see me fighting a Nazgul, I think I would have hid and hoped it would go away. Who says Tolkien's women were all old-fashioned and weak? Eowyn is modern and strong enough for even 2002 tastes.
Didn't even know she was an Aussie, hope sh'e good though, and I'd like some more info on her too. I'm sure we'll get a million interviews with her in the lead up to the TTT next year though.
Eowyn was so much more interesting than Arwen that I always felt a bit cheated that she didn't get to marry Aragorn! (although Faramir was a good replacement) She was wonderfully complex, unlike all the rest of the beautiful and virtuous (and dull) women we meet. Not to knock the elf ladies, but they are a bit tough to relate to. I'd like to think I'd be like Eowyn, but not a chance. I'd be hiding from the Nazgul with you, Allyssa!

I always wondered if there was a reason she was so much more faceted than the other women. Not that I don't trust Tolkien's ability to create a full-rounded female character, but most of his others are such lofty, idealized creatures (or they're big bugs). Eowyn is lightyears beyond the others in personality. Did Tolkien know some tough, passionate, fierce lady who impressed him? Some scholar who braved the halls of tweed, maybe? (a spiritual grandmother for me!) His wife sounds like she was sweet and kind, but not really an Eowyn.

um... done ranting now. heh.
Hi, Jehanne. Agree with everything you've said about Eowyn.

Hmm, I read somewhere that Edith wasn't as strait-laced as I thought...seemed that JRR based the story of Luthien & Beren on Edith dancing for him in some moonlit grove. So maybe she had other qualities that we don't know about... Wink Smilie

I sometimes wonder why Tolkien chose to depict some of his strongest females as bugs. Maybe he thought that male readers of that era would instinctively resist identifying with too many non-stereotypical female characters, and thus chose to represent them in -albeit grotesque - forms that they would be able to accept. Boys *do* tend to be fascinated, instead of repulsed, by spiders & bats. Smile Smilie

Or maybe Tolkien was simply old-fashioned and balked at the idea of portraying evil in a womanly form. But I also try to imagine how a LoTR full of well-rounded, complex women would have fared in the '40s and '50s. Would it have been as successful?
I like the idea of Edith dancing (and I always liked Luthien). And really, considering some of the writings of Tolkien's contemporaries, I'm just glad that he created one Eowyn. Arwens and Shelobs are more typical of the era (personality-wise, of course, not spider-wise).

I think you're probably right that his audience wouldn't have been comfortable with a large number of strong-willed, non-conformist women characters. Arwen's the perfect courtly princess, and I can see how she would have been appealing in a world that was scarred by war, and changing much faster than Tolkien (and his peers) liked. And the spider-ladies certainly have a long (indirect) genealogy of ensnaring evil women, particularly in the Arthur mythos. I suppose Tolkien was writing in the "language" he knew best, in which will and fallability were male traits, and women who held them were often less than admirable. So bravo to him for making Eowyn so wonderful!

PS- Ungoliant- I like your name. Always liked those spider-ladies!
Good day ladies - good stuff here. I've always insisted that Tolkien knew sweet f. all about women and just couldn't write about hem. All virgins and angels. At forst I figured he would make a synthesis of Arwen/Eowyn but now I guess its different. Although I think Liv Tyler did a great job with her character considering the material she had to deal with.
Concerning Eowyn - loved her character although I'm not sure she's as entirely "cool" as you make her out to be. Although not your regular Tolkien character, she 's still basically a n Amazonic kind of portrayal. (Now I haven't re-read Book 3 in a few years so all this is from memory) Sure she stands up to the male postAuthorIDities of Rohan but the way I see it is written is that Eowyn, learning that Aragorn will not "marry" her has decided life is no longer worth living and she wants to go off and die in combat. HAving survived she is disappointed but is "saved" becasue of Faramir......
MMMM - not too sure this is a "strong " a female character as you make her out to be. Strongheaded yes - but in the way of Tolkien - which basically means she's thick skinned, silly, doesn't understand all thats going on around her and needs a good man to put her right. Wonder what life is like back in Ithilien with Farmair and Eowyn. ?
Lets talk.
Bloody good point Huan! She was not brave at all, was she? She was some dippy bint who wanted to top herself cos Strider wouldn't do her. S'not Her fault that Merry got in the way and topped the Nazgul for her.
Back to Eowyn, I don't think she was stupid for wanting to get into the frey. What good is it sitting around a castle worrying if the man you love (and can't have) is getting cut to pieces. Men get to get into action (work or war, it's the same)and forget their troubles at home, why shouldn't a woman?

I like Eowyn. In ROTK she saw that Merry had the same feeling about staying behind as she did and so smuggled him to the front. If you want to understand what Eowyn was feeling, read Merry's account. It may make you feel a little more sympathetic to her.
Who will be playing Faramir? Whoever it is, let's hope he's played well. There will be some kinda jealousy in the film, right? Between Aragorn and Faramir, and especially between Eowyn and Arwen. Ladies, let's fight! Smile Smilie
Faramir is being played by an Aussie actor named David Wenham. It looks like he's done more TV than anything, and the only one of his movies that I've even seen in the store is Cosi, but he's won several awards, so here's hoping. He looks vaguely (very vaguely) like Sean Bean (not as cute), but he definitely looks softer and less warrior-like. Which is good.

Oh, and it turns out I've seen Miranda Otto in What Lies Beneath and The Jack Bull (John Cusack as a cowboy!)... and I don't remember her in either. That's either really good or really bad. I want to see TTT NOW! Argh!
All this Eowyn analysis and nobody has talked about Tolkien's own analysis of her. She was beaten down by the "craven counsels" of Wormtongue and seeing her King and land reduced to shame. Then she sees a high, noble King and being the upwardly mobile aspiring human we all are, says "please take me out of this dump". When he doesn't, she says to hell with all this, let me out of my cage, etc etc. Eowyn is much more interesting than Arwen because, (duh!), humans are much more interesting than those prissy boring elves. She was a great character.
hullo oldfandave,
interesting points, and having throughly re-read the book, I must say i find Eowyn a little annoying. She's always so sad and gloomy, with all that mumbo jumbo about clouds and etc. ok, i know she's been through a lot but she first moved Faramir with pity (which is the traditional emotion in the Elizabethan courtship) and then he falls in love with her for reasons unknown, probably because he thought she was hot. Even when she slays the Nazgul king, everyone's like she met a foe greater than she is in strength, blah blah blah. not all that much glory there, either? all in all, i don't like the way tolkien treats his women characters and the way he's so hoity toity about the royal blood and ancient lineage.

argh! been ranting without making too much sense. anyway, Eowyn's much better than Arwen's character in the book, and I hope in the movie they do something better with her.
Welcome Oldfandave. I agree with your analysis of Eowyn, and Wormtongue was the culprit alright. Eowyn's character is the most interesting out of the ten females in LOTR. She is the least two dimensional of the lot. Smile Smilie

Does anyone remember any other named females with speaking parts, other than the following: Lobelia, Mrs. Maggot, Goldberry, Arwen, Galadriel, Eowyn, Shelob (non-speaking but has an active part), Ioreth, Mrs. Cotton, and Rosie.

Could you have remembered all these had I asked you to name them? I remembered all their names but had to look to determine that Lobelia and the other two married Shire ladies actually had speaking parts. Wink Smilie

This was off topic but probably not for long, unless I missed a bunch. Big Smile Smilie
Wasn't there an old lady healer in the Healing chambers in Minas Tirith who had awld wives tales about kingsleaf or something. Maybe she's Ioreth - I can't remember who Ioreth is/was.
Sounds about right, Grondy.
the list is quite short, eh..
Huan: Yes Ioreth was the long talking woman in the Houses of Healing. She has more lines in the BBC Radio version than in the book, if I remember rightly. Big Smile Smilie
... Theoden named Eomer his heir and called him king. In that day Eowyn also won renown, for she fought in the battle, riding in disguise; and was known after in the Mark as the Lady of the Shield-arm.*

*For her shield-arm was broken by the mace of the Witch-king; but he was brought to nothing, and thus the words of Glorfindal long before to King Earnur were fulfilled, that the Witch-king would not fall by the hand of man. For it is said in the songs of the Mark that in this deed Eowyn had the aid of Theoden's esquire, and that he also was not a Man but a Halflling out of a far country, though Eomer gave him honour in the Mark and the name of Holdwine. (This Holdwine was none other than Meriadoc the Magnificent who was Master of Buckland.)
From 'The Return of the King', Appendix A, 'The Kings of the Mark', 'Third Line',
under 2991-F.A.63(3084) Eomer Eadig
Cool Smilie

Skwrl: I knew you were going to pick-up on that. I had thought of writing 'with Merry to the fore,' but figured you would call me for mis-spelling ford. How about 'with Merry in the front', or better yet 'with Merry to the front'. :P Big Smile Smilie[Edited on 9/2/2002 by Grondmaster]
How many Aussies are there in this movie??? No wonder if they played in New Zealand, but still... And no wonder nobody has heard about them... Still, if they play well, they are forgiven.

Me guessing Faramir will not play that bigga role... Sad Smilie
there's cate and hugo, the dude who's going to play faramir and the chick who's going to play eowyn..
i'm sure there's more but can't think of any.
The guy who plays the mouth of Sauron is another Aussie. You usually can't watch any Australian made film or program without him being in it. Name's Bruce Spence. Great Actor, but I think this might be his first villan, which will be a challenge for him.

On the topic of Aussie actors, anyone know any recent movies that Nicholas Rogers acted in? Or if he's still alive?

Was he ever in Neighbours? Or the Flying Doctors? They're the only oz shows I really know. *Hides face in shame*
Coming back to Eovyn... she did not show strength but weakness in abandoning her duty (she accepted to be a steward and to protect and to rule women, children and all other Rohirrim which did not ride to Minas Tirith). Of course she was "not herself" in a way; she was :very profoundly unhappy because Aragorn gently but very firmly rejected her love.
In Tolkien's works a great emphasis is laid on the contrat between egocentric desire of renown (and personal prstige) - and real heroism (fulfilling one's duty even if it is dull and unpleasant and unrewarded). Aragorn tells this plainly to Eovyn at their partung, but the same theme appears also in the short play "THe homecoming of Beorthnoth, Beorthhelm's son", and in the contrast between Turin (rash and destructive) and his aunt Aerin Indor's daughter (a patient, meek wife of an Easterling Brodda who is yet courageous enough to live in thraldom and to help constantly her people.
Really mature people do not desire renown. In the North Aragorn is walking incognito in mud-stained clothes and is scorned by Bree villagers. Frodo hides his mithril-coat under his ordinary hobbit tunic...
Eowyn was also brain-washed by Wormtongue who probably parroted his true boss's words at her to lessen her sense of duty to the kingdom.
What is the house of Eorl but a thatched barn where brigands drink in the reek, and their brats roll on the floor among the dogs?
This probably made it easier for her to chuck it all, and ride off to battle looking for the quick way out. Sad Smilie
I'm sorry, but no matter what Eowyn did, she was doing her duty. Was it any less her duty to protect her people by being a soldier? No matter what she did, she would be unrecognizzed for it (even though she killed the witch king, she didn't get any special regard for it...). And only by fighting would she at least feel of some worth to herself... AND at least this way she met Faramir and gained his regard (which is the better prize IMO).
Okay, so we can assume then, that Eowyn confided with some major domo at Dunharrow her decision to slope off to war, and left him in charge of her appointed duties, and he was powerless to keep her from going. That duty thus having been accomplished, she donned her armor, gathered the hobbit and her cloak, and rode off to battle with Merry in the van. Her only remaining duty was to 'be the best that she could be.' Which I might say, she fulfilled better than any man could ever do.

I do not believe she went unrecognized. Someone must have wondered, 'What ever happened to the Lord of the Nazgul, you know, that scary guy what rode the flying monster?' Or were she and Merry so tight lipped that the deed was thought done by Theoden? Not that he could ever fulfill the prophesy, being trapped under Snowmane and being of the wrong gender.

I think Eowyn is a much greater character than Arwen and PJ d*mn well better let her 'off' the Nazgul's head and crown or there will be hell to pay.
i thought Merry got a lot more kudos for slaying the Narzgul king than she did. She came across as more of a silly little love sick twert. and so darn serious about everything! she should lighten up a little.
Yeah, I'm with Rosie today! And what sort of van did they ride off in? Was it a Ford Transit? Wink Smilie
Hi Swamphaye,
I can agree that Eowyn continued to fight for a good cause when she went to Mundburg... but it was not her duty (unless we assume as Grondmaster did that she departed only after initating some second-in-command in all important matters). Now that I think about it, she must have done that. Otherwise this would be simply criminal - imagine how Rohirrim would feel when discovering that Lady Eowyn is just gone without a word! Imagine a Rohirrim mother having a sick child which cannot be cured because Eowyn left without telling anybody where are the keys for the store iof the medicaments!
But of course if some competent person replaced her... the things look different. Yes, I think that Grondmaster is right (as usual) - she must have done that!...
Anyway, she was really the worst choice for a steward so perhaps it was really better for everybody to let her go with the army...
I wonder what happened to her after the war. Am I right that se and Faramir did not have children?
How do you like to imagine her inviting crowds of war orphans - both Gondorians and Rohirrims - to camp together in Ithilien? Both boys and girls would love her... and I think that Faramir would be delighted as well!
I wouldn't like to imagine Eowyn stuck with a few hundred screaming brats! Come on, she killed the Witch King for goodness sake - I'm sure she deserved a better reward than that! Perhaps she ran Faramir's estates, or managed his finances. Can you imagine a peasant refusing to pay her rent? Wink Smilie

But seriously though - I still think that she & Faramir opened that pub. And she's the bouncer.
i can't imagine Eowyn with kids. though i think Faramir would've been a great dad.
Would have found a joke somewhere whatever you'd said Grond Big Smile Smilie
Nothing suits a bitchy head strong ex-warrior better than motherhood... (speaking from experience) You want good kids with good swordarms? Who better than Eowyn? I will tell you that the Celts were taught swordplay by their mothers before being sent to a great house to train. And one of the best Pirates/Samurai in Japan was offered amnesty if she would but persue a new occupation named "motherhood". She accepted. Didn't make her any less a warrior.

As a former warrior (I'm assuming semi pro baseball is the modern "American" equivelant of war training)and a mom of several "screaming brats" I think it would suit Eowyn fine. There's nothing quite like it. I like it a lot. (I do quite relate to Eowyn...)
Well I understood her despair and frustration at being left behind & her need to carve out her own niche in the world. I can relate to her desires - which is why it took my husband 12 years to talk me into marriage since I wouldn't do it until I had 'made my name' in my field, so to speak.

Of course, everyone has their own views on the desirability of children. As for me...well, Eowyn killed the Witch King, so I think she's be quite resentful if she was expected to have any. I'd rather keep my comforting vision of her riding though Ithilen, hewing Orc necks while Faramir looks after the kids (if any). At least Eowyn had it easy though, if they had kids - good maids were sooo easy to find back then.
Oi made moi name in moi field with a tractor and some mud! Big Smile Smilie
you are really terrific! I really LOVE your comment, every word of it!

Eowyn as a bar tender - yes (she seems to be pretty good in mixing the stirrupcups...).
But I can't imagine Eowyn seeking pleasure in threatening poor tenants of Faramir...
She killed the Witch King,yeah!!!!l If you have killed a tiger with a penknife you
won't seek plesure in hunting for flies on a kitchen table! [(I am speaking
from experience of course Wink Smilie ]

And then... do you remember what she toldl to Faramir on the walls of Minas Tirith?
I will be a shieldmaiden no longer, nor vie with the great riders, nor take joy
only in the songs of slaying. I will be a healer, and love all things that grow and are
not barren

Well if she herself felt so!... But it seems that she and Faramir had no children...
Has anybody more information about it? I found it somewhere on the www pages,
together with a very fine pencil drawing of Faramir - not exactly like I imagine him,
but decent enough...

If so, the idea of her taking care of war orphans seemed quite plausible... She could be
then both mother (adoptive) and healer. And the kids may be quite nice - Bergil son of
Beregond was not that bad at all!

Plastic Squirrel
I did not understand anything from your last postBody.
I must be completely stupid - how very frustrating (sob)
I took the quote literally - she became a healer/gardener/builder whatever - didn't include raising orphans at all. You can think of her in that role if you wish, since it's a free world, innit? I just prefer to think of her restoring Ithilen to its former glory, or chopping up stray Orcs every now and then.

Don't get me wrong - I take my hat off to anyone who wants to be a full time mom. But for me, I reckon that life for my favourite heroine would be dull indeed at home with hundreds of 'screaming brats' after such heroic deeds on the battlefield. Surely she needs time to adjust? A horde of kids would probably drive her out of her mind.

I have no idea what happened to her after LotR - so I'll keep my vision of her as a bouncer/rent collector/Orc exterminator. Smile Smilie
I'm afraid that Orcs in Ithilien didn't last long enough to afford her fun for lifetime!
And of course she would not have to be a" full time mom" - she was after all a princess
and that means a lot of helpers at hand!! I think she might arrange things to get
the maximum of pleasure. And I do not imagine her with screaming babies, but with
nice lively 10-14 year olds. She could enjoy with them all sorts of exciting war games,
a little bit as we enjoy them now during the "survival" holidays.

But of course this is a free world and everybody has right to his own vision of the heroes,
so I am simply telling you what comes to my mind... and it's so thrilling to read all
the comments!... and in particular those which present different views!!!!
Wow. I leave for a week to catch up on work, and when I come back, my girl is all popular again! This is great!

But every time I found an argument in this thread I didn't agree with, the next post beat me to my counter-argument. So, alas, no ranting for me today. Darn. No more weeks off, I guess. Smile Smilie
Eryan, sorry for the gratuitous, westcountry farmer joke if you didn't get it. Was just a daft pun. Smile Smilie
Thanks for that nice smile Squirrel!!!
I still regret being too dumb to appreciate your joke...
Jehanne, feel free to step onto the soapbox anytime you like...your rants make more sense than my most serious posts anyway. Big Smile Smilie
Gee, thanks! -blushes-

But don't sell yourself short! I've quoted you, Plastic and Grondmaster in my classes (giving all the proper credit- fear not, Taz!) and my students are very impressed by you. Except Plastic's name. That they just laughed at. Big Smile Smilie Who knows, by the end of the term I might have quoted everyone. And my students might all be posting too! Now that's scary!
Oh dear! The Skwrl and Grondy have now had their fifteen minutes of fame. What more is there to live for. Wink Smilie

"Its all a misunderstanding, I was quoted out of context." Sad Smilie

I assume we were used as the examples of how not to do it. Big Smile Smilie
I assume we were used as the examples of how not to do it. Big Smile Smilie

You can say that again!

Or a lesson in the art of going off topic perhaps? Wink Smilie
*fails to see what's so funny about his name*

Me? Quoted in a lesson? :o I hope you edited out all the f***s!
*wonders what the world is coming too*
By this it is proven that the Apocalyps is near... Big Smile Smilie

So Eowyn as a healer then? Can't see that happening, sorry. I don't see the women who killed the Witch King as a healer... Smile Smilie
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