Here is the chat log from May 11th.
Join us on May 18th at 9pm UK (4pm ET) for discussion on Chapter 3: The Uruk-hai and Chapter 4: Treebeard.
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How are you this evening?
We will be starting our discussion in about
Hi Asteroth and alcroth
hi Lady Golde
Before we begin, I just want to go over a
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* ChanServ sets mode: +o Mellie
This week we are discussing chapters 1 and
2 of The Two Towers
When we finished The Fellowship of the Ring
last week, we left Frodo and Sam making their
What was Frodo's choice and what incident
pushed him to make that decision?
he chose to go to Mordor himself
not with the fellowship
because bormoir attacked him
He decided to go to Mordor alone due
to the fact that Boromir had been corrupted by the
but then sam came
because of the rings power over boromir
And Boromir paid dearly for his mistake.
and he didn't want to endanger the
That is where we pick up the story in The
that is right
What happens to Boromir?
he was worried that the ring would corrupt
the others as well as boromir
He is slain by Uruks
he gets killed by orcs
as he tries to defend Merey and Pippin
Who is the first to find him?
I think that frodo had a really
hard choose to make and i hold him in high asteam
Wasn't it Aragorn
Yes it was.
I agree with you Lady. It was a very
difficult choice for Frodo. He really thought and
expected that the company would go with him to
What did Boromir tell Aragorn?
and to still feel the death of
What had happened with Frodo and what
had happened to Merry and Pippin
that he tried to take the ring
that he had tried to take the ring from
I think the entire Fellowship was still
reeling from the loss of Gandalf
boromir told aragorn about what happened
and that he was very sorry
That he tried to take the ring and for
Aragorn the defend Minas Tirith
And asked Aragorn to save his city
and that he wanted Aragorn to go
to Minas Tirith
yes, i had forgotten that part
and save the people of Gondor
Farewell Aragron! Go to Minas Tirith and
save my people. I have failed"
"No, Boromir, you have won.
He had a very deep sense of failure. Do you
think this had anything to do with the way he died?
Yes very mush so
I think until then, the ring was
perhaps giving him a false hope
I agree Val
not only did he try to take the
ring but also could not stop the4m taking merry and
But there had to be some intrinsic good in
him that made him so remorseful.
but he tried valiantly in the latter
He was a good man, but the ring was
too strong for his ambitions to ignore
yes, he died a brave and honourable death,
even if he did not believe so.
yes he did
It is also a very drawn out, detailed
death, perhaps the most in the whole book)
Aragorn responds to him: This is a bitter
end. Now the company is all in ruin. It is I that
have failed. Vain was Gandalf's trust in me."
yes, Val, it is. And deservedly do.
A low ebb for Aeragorn too
I think that Aragorn is alway
hard on him self
I think this scene has been detailed so to
give a true sense of discouragement.
He was really missing Gandlaf's
council by then
yes, Lady. Aragorn has never felt really
prepared for his role in this.
I think he is scared of himself
yes i do too
He doesn't really no he has a lot
I think he expected that the delay Celeborn
offered him would start to bring things together
and he would be able to make the right choices.
He started to feel more confident when they
went through the Argonath
Was Boromir and Faramir's dream so that
Boromir would be the catalyst to break the
He does make the right choices, he
just doesn't know it at the time
I agree with that
and neither do we as the reader Val. I
think Tolkien has done a good job of making us feel
the sense of failure that Aragorn and Boromir feel
At what level do you mean Grondy?
He has no faith in himself
Well as part of Eru's plan
Yes the odds certainly feel stacked
against the good guys all the way
Actually, for a short time he did, Lady. He
lost that confidence when Boromir died. I think he
also felt responsible for Boromir's betrayal.
They all would have wanted to go with
I think it may have been... dreams
usually come from Eru for some reason
The party did have to split so Eru
probably gave them a prod in the right direction
Legolas points out to Aragorn he must
now make a choice
yes, whether he is ready to make the choice
To get Aragorn to quit feeling sorry
In fact the three of them spend quite a bit
of time dealing with just that.
Long enough to send Boromir on his way
Legolas seemed to be the practical one,
suggesting that the fallen be delt with first
rocks too far away and too heavy for a
So just dump him in the river
Gimli tries to pressure Aragorn's decision:
"We must be swift. He would not want us to linger"
give him a Vikings Funeral less fire
who was "he" who Gimli refers to.
Yes, Boromir is my thought
more of an Anglo-Saxon funeral was it not.
Did they not bury their kings in their ships
They have found a few that have been
yes, it is a platitude that we use quite
often in an attempt to comfort.
Because it works, it is a comfort
yes, I just found it seemed strange coming
Legolas hadn't been around funerals
Gimli had as the dwarves were mortal
Dwarves usually revere their dead by
burying them in stone... After the Battle of
Azanulbizar however, there were too many dead so
they had to burn them... Gimli knew about getting
on with things in time of need
It is interesting that Legolas would be the
first to mention a funeral for Boromir
good point Val.
Legolas didn't want Boromir's body
eaten by the carrion, wild animals and birds
Which would also explain Gimli's impatience
when Aragorn was puzzling over the new race of Orc.
In fact, Aragorn seemed almost to be lost
in his thoughts. Would it be shock?
He was the one who the final decision
would lie with.. He hasd to be certain he was
making the right one
yes, and this he made clear to Gimli.
"But we must guess the riddles if we are to
chose our course rightly."
To which Gimli replies "Maybe there is no
This just seems to reinforce the feeling of
As the intention had been to go with
frodo all the way, it would be a really hard
decision to now leave them
but one they had to make.
Leaving mery and pippin however, was
something they could not contemplate
Frodo had departed of his own choice,
the other twio hadn't
I think Aragorn knew that Frodo's fate was
not in his hands.
that is a very good point, Val
And fokllowing Frodo could bring the
enemies eyes looking in that direction
Which is probably why this choice had been
made for them, grondy
I think Aragorn had seen virtues in
Frodo on this part of the journey that had not been
apparent in Bree
I do think that there was influence from
Eru in this
yes Val. Frodo had changed, especially
after his encounter with Galadriel.
they also realized that frodo was already
gone, and there was nothing left for the fellowship
I think Eru influenced the decision
at the council in the first place to include two
hobbits rather than teo elf lords
but that merry and pippin needed all the
help they could get
I agree, Val. and Aragorn made note of that
Once the decision was made to follow Merry
and Pippin, Aragorn was very driven.
i think Eru played a bigger role in it than
we realize while reading the books
true Aragorn was not going to fail again.
Yes Mellie... If you haven't read the
silmarillion, I don't think it would even be
he felt like he failed gandalf and frodo both
I agree Mellie, I didn't notice it until I
read the books again.
and possibly also that he failed arwen
and that was after reading the Silmarillion.
I can see why Tolkien wanted the Silmarillion to
be published first.
Aragorn wasn't going to fail at saving
the two hobbits for lack of trying
yes, i can understand that too.
However, I think the better decision was to
publish LOTR first.
I don't think the public was ready
for the Silmarillion, not htat it was ever finished
yeah, because if the sil had been published
first no one would have ever read LOTR
It appealed to more people and gave them an
appetite for more. After reading the Silmarillion,
you notice that you have missed so much in LOTR and
go back to re-read it.
And the publishers wouldn't have given
LotR a chance after the Sil went down in flames
no they would not have
but that isn't in TTT
anyway, back to the subject at hand
Legolas seems tireless in the pursuit.
yes he was
That's elves for you
and Dwarves have endurance
But stumpy legs
and strider has long gangly legs
but how could Aragorn manage the
even this was more than a dwarf could
endure. However, I think Gimli would have continued
until he dropped.
Because he was the hardiest man of
Again they have to make a choice as to
whether to continue giving chase or rest for the
In the North he didn't travel by horse
back he walked
Legolas and Gimli want Aragorn to chose.
"You give the choice to an ill chooser"
said Aragorn, "Since we passed through the Argonath
ny choices have gone amiss"
Aragorn was the ranger who could read
the trail, they couldn't
I found this statement very ironic. The one
point in the last part of FOTR where Aragorn felt
any confidence was when they passed through the
Arasgorn couldn't read it rightly at
night without moonlight
that is correct and that is something
Aragorn noticed that was strange about the sky
The stars were faint, the pale moon could
not be trusted and he was weary as no ranger should
And Gimli was also very tired
He also noticed that there was something
that added speed to the Orcs run and he felt there
was an unseen barrier before them.
I still get the sense of failure here, or
at least the fear of failure.
Saruman's magic maybe
Mind you 125 miles is a long way to
"someone is using their will against us"
That is what Aragorn deduced.
even on a clear day
But I think we see help come from Eru
through Legolas here.
Legolas says, "Do not cast all hope away.
Tomorrow is unknown."
Then he sang in elvish and the white stars
opened up in the hard black vault above.
I think so Val.
Legolas was quite practical here, he
had gained some wisdom in his 2000 plus years
Yes, but there seemed to be more than just
There seemed to be some "magic" in his song.
Wisdom alone wouild not have made the
stars shine brighter
As I do not think it was mere coincidence
that the Riders of Rohan just happened along.
but it might have been enough for him
to sing his song as an enabler
yes, but someone had to hear his song and
You can look at thi book as being
either a series of coincidences or Eru's interaction
that is where Eru cam in again
isn't Elvish song a form of prayer?
I prefer to go with Eru's intervention.
From the Silmarillion, we know Eru
played a large part in reordering the world after
Melkor had messed it up
he allowed Varda and the others to hear
Some Elvish songs are a form of prayer,
some a form of storytelling.
One of Varda's powers I believe, was
that she could here all what was said in middle
But I think the Valar are being very
careful not to interact directly with the free
people of Middle Earth
wouldn't prayer's have to come from some
kind of religion?? (which i think lotr didn't
Particularly with Men
I think "prayer" is definitely a spiritual
thing, not necessarily "religious"
But I think the O Elbereth-gilthonial
was an invocation
It had the power to drive away a
yes, it appears to be, as it is cried at
times of great need and despair.
Anyway, in this case it worked
What kind of a reception did Aragorn and
company receive from the Riders of Rohan?
At first they were thought to be spies
magic hid them from view
the riders made a ring around them ready to
fight them at any time
But they did not
The riders would have ridden pasr
Eomer was not a rash man
yes, Aragorn had to grab their attention.
That would have been the cloaks that
Galadriel had given them
Not, but he also did not believe in dreams
i think Eomer was curious too, and after he
had spoken to aragorn he took them for friends and
helped them even if his orders was the opposite
"Who are you and what are you doing
yes, Perwing, this is true. Just as Haldir
had to go against the laws of Lothlorien to allow
Gimli to enter the Golden Wood.
i guess they just made an impression on ppl
This is a recurring theme in LOTR.
Or it is the work of Eru.
The puzzle pieces dovetailing together
If I remember correctly, was this not a
normally a place for the Riddermark to be roming
In addition, Eomer was perhaps the
only leader in Rohan not under the influence of
good point Val
For disobeying Theoden he had been
and not pleased with the influence of