Thread: The Last Debate
Start of #bilbos-study buffer: Sun May 02 19:03:29 2004 [10:17] * Now talking in #bilbos-study
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join us in #tolkien (Rednell)'
[17:19] [Rednell] hi virumor
[17:20] [Rednell] hmmm, would you like to wait for a couple of weeks to
discuss "The Last Debate"
[17:20] [Rednell] I think there is lots there but would be more
interesting with more than 2 perspectives.
[17:20] [Rednell] Next Sunday is Mother's Day here so I can't make it.
[17:20] [virumor] 3 perspectives, then.
[17:24] [virumor] "i am glad to be here with you sam, at the end of all
things. But i just wished you didn't take so much space on this narrow
[17:25] [virumor] can't we drag anyone from #tolkien in here then?
[17:31] [Rednell] sure, I will see what I can do.
[17:34] [Rednell] actually the topic is the 9th chapter in book 5, The
[17:37] [Rednell] We find Gimli and Legolas anxious to meet with Merry and
[17:38] [Rednell] I find it interesting as they are surveying Minas Tirith
how contasting their observasions are.
[17:39] [Rednell] it is typical of their races but I think it also shows
that both are needed to restore Gondor to its former beauty.
[17:39] [virumor] well they both point out that MT's appearance sucks
[17:39] [virumor] and that humans suck
[17:39] [Rednell] and they point out how their people can restore it.
[17:40] [Rednell] Let's start with what each would like to see restored
[17:41] [virumor] well Gimli commented on the way parts of the city were
[17:41] [virumor] Legolas commented on the fauna and flora.
[17:42] [Rednell] indeed. And both would see their people help restore it.
[17:42] [Rednell] Did you notice that Gimli says "when Aragorn comes into
his own" yet Legolas says "if Aragorn comes into his own"
[17:43] [Rednell] do you think there was a reason for the difference? Does
it really mean anything different?
[17:43] [virumor] dunno. maybe JRRT wanted to avoid repetition.
[17:43] [virumor] i don't see another reason behind it.
[17:44] [Rednell] one is positive and one casts a doubt
[17:44] [virumor] i think no one of them doubted Aragorn.
[17:45] [Rednell] I don't think Legolas doubted Aragorn. But I think he
may have been concerned about whether they could defeat Sauron.
[17:45] [virumor] they knew they couldn't do that.
[17:46] [virumor] they knew Frodo was their only hope.. no hope in any
[17:46] [virumor] well, would be typical if our pansy Elf would be scared
and run off to the West.
[17:46] [virumor] at least our Khâzad stands firm as stone, as always.
[17:47] [Rednell] It almost seemed to me that Legolas was giving Gimli a
[17:47] [Rednell] now that is a very good point.
[17:47] [virumor] his constant whining about "the sea" annoyed me.
[17:47] [Rednell] the Dwarves were very steadfast and the Elves were
growing weary and leaving
[17:48] [Rednell] I think Galadriel really left him with dread with her
warning about the seagulls
[17:48] [virumor] there weren't many Elves left to do something to Sauron
[17:49] [virumor] too busy with singing songs and writing poems, i guess.
[17:49] [virumor] can't see Lindir slashing some orc, really.
[17:50] [Rednell] When Gimli and Legolas were critizing the race of Men,
did you get any sense that Men did not deserve to rule ME?
[17:51] [virumor] not really
[17:51] [virumor] they just appear to have mixed feelings
[17:52] [LadyFeawen] I didnt either..
[17:52] [Rednell] yes, I think you are right there
[17:53] [virumor] it's just the fact that humans multiply so fast, whilst
Elves and dwarves don't. they just point out it is inenivitable.
[17:53] [Rednell] Gimli obviously doesn't want Legolas to go to the Havens.
[17:53] [virumor] well Legolas isn't really planning that either.
[17:53] [Rednell] "The deeds of Men will outlast us, Gimli" That could
mean for good or ill.
[17:54] [virumor] probably bit of both.
[17:55] [Rednell] Gimli is really uncomfortable telling Merry and Pippin
of the Paths of the Dead.
[17:55] [virumor] for once, he wasn't steadfast yes.
[17:56] [Rednell] He most certainly did not wish to relate his experience.
[17:56] [virumor] as Merry didn't want to talk bout his confrontation with
[17:56] [Rednell] that is a good point
[17:57] [Rednell] but with Merry it would remind him of what he has lost.
[17:57] [Rednell] perhaps, with Gimli, the near loss of his steadfast
courage was too much to cope with.
[17:58] [Rednell] and actually, he even said what courage he had came from
[17:58] [virumor] strange that dwarves also fear human ghosts
[17:58] [virumor] while elves don't
[18:00] [Rednell] I think that had more to do with the way Legolas and
Gimli felt towards Aragorn
[18:01] [virumor] dunno, legolas cleazrly describes the human ghosts to be
"powerless and hollow" or something
[18:01] [Rednell] Gimli said he was "held to it by the will of Aragorn"
but Legolas said "by love of him also"
[18:01] [Rednell] one was held externally the other internally
[18:04] [Rednell] you have a point Vir, Legolas felt it "strange and
wonderful" that the "designs of Mordor be overthrown by such wraiths of
fear and darkness"
[18:05] [Rednell] I think also that Legolas' knowledge of Aragorn's
lineage and destiny alleviates any fears of following Aragorn into the
Paths of the Dead
[18:07] [Rednell] Do you think that the ghosts could have used their
swords to kill?
[18:07] [virumor] no
[18:08] [virumor] just induce fear like the nazgûl
[18:09] [virumor] i don't even know whether their weapons are real
[18:09] [Rednell] interesting that Aragorn used the same weapon on the
enemy and it worked. Saurons armies must have feared the Nazgul as well.
[18:11] [Rednell] I actually like the idea that Tolkien used something
that humans naturally fear for the side of good.
[18:11] [virumor] yes, Gorbag descriptions of them isn't very lovely.
[18:11] [LadyFeawen] I have to go. I'm sorry I couldn't add anything
[18:12] [Rednell] ok, see you later LadyFeawen
[18:12] * LadyFeawen (firstname.lastname@example.org) has left
[18:12] [Rednell] remind me of Gorbag's words, vir
[18:13] [virumor] he said something to Shagrat like "they look straight
thru you" or something.
[18:13] [virumor] or "when they look at you they tear all the fleshof your
body" something in thazt trend.
[18:15] [Rednell] right, I remember now
[18:17] [Rednell] When it seems that Aragorn cannot make it to Gondor in
time to be of any help, a fair wind picks up from the sea.
[18:17] [virumor] deux ex machina
[18:18] [virumor] deus, rather
[18:18] [virumor] Manwë, probably.
[18:18] [virumor] same thing with the eagles in the end.
[18:19] [Rednell] yes, Manwe was who I had in mind as the hand of fate.
[18:20] [Rednell] "Great is ahll remain though non be left in Gondor to
sing of it in the days that are to come" Those sound like words of doubt
[18:20] [virumor] Manwë sees and hears everything, and is the lord of the
[18:22] [Rednell] anyway, let's move on to the meeting of the leaders.
[18:23] [Rednell] Denethor will never know how much information he had
really given Gandalf about Sauron's next move.
[18:25] [virumor] Gandalf also knoew Sauron had several huge armies under
[18:25] [virumor] he knew their only hope was to destroy the ring.
[18:25] [Rednell] I would seem the 2 things that Sauron believes he will
use to win the war are the 2 things that can be used against him to
bring about his fall.
[18:26] [virumor] interesting how he tells his disciples to look at the
facts like denethor, but not to despair like the latter
[18:26] [Rednell] yes, Gandalf really turned the information sent through
the palantir to a strategical advantage
[18:28] [virumor] as Sauron still thought Aragorn had the ring
[18:28] [Rednell] I find it interesting that in Sauron's strategy that
even if the enemy does get the Ring he can still be victorious
[18:29] [Rednell] Sauron was banking on the Ring causing discord between
Aragorn, Gandalf and company as they would all want to wield the power
of the Ring
[18:30] [Rednell] It would seem that he never considered that they would
just seek to destroy it. That was Sauron's flaw in his plan
[18:30] [virumor] yes
[18:31] [virumor] he underestimated Aragorn.
[18:31] [virumor] maybe he thought back to Ar-Pharazon and other
numenoreans he used to know, and he thought he was as weak as they.
[18:31] [Rednell] Although he was getting more concerned because he never
expected defeat and his Captain to fall in battle and
[18:31] [virumor] easy to corrupt.
[18:31] [virumor] he would've been right if Boromir had the ring, that's
[18:31] [Rednell] Probably.
[18:32] [Rednell] indeed. I don't think Aragorn would have been immune
either. Legolas made note of that.
[18:32] [virumor] no one is.
[18:32] [virumor] that's why all the Wise want to stay away from it as far
[18:33] [Rednell] One thing they agreed on was that the battle could not
be won by arms and only the destruction of the Ring would bring down
Sauron for ever.
[18:34] [virumor] yes
[18:34] [virumor] although if the Valar would interfere, it could be won
[18:34] [virumor] but that wasn't part of Eru's test for the free ppls of
[18:35] [Rednell] and I think the Valar messed up in the first place with
[18:36] [Rednell] But I too believe it was a test to be sure the free
ppls, especially Men, could be the stewards of ME
[18:38] [Rednell] The leaders had concerns about leaving with so many men
to distract Sauron from Frodo's task.
[18:38] [virumor] that's why i don't believe that sauron's victory would
be fast and decisive if he had the rign back, as gandalf said.
[18:39] [virumor] the Valar would come with their splendourous armies.
[18:39] [virumor] Sauron was defeated in the past by Elendil and Gil-Galad
even with the Ring.
[18:39] [Rednell] this is true
[18:39] [virumor] he is not a warrior, just a master of puppets, a puppet
[18:39] [virumor] a servant.
[18:41] [Rednell] Morgorth was his mentor, but he doesn't have any power
as a puppeteer over Sauron at this point.
[18:41] [virumor] Morgoth still inspires darkness and evil from the Void.
[18:42] [Rednell] true
[18:43] [Rednell] Aragorn has done well to manage to scare up 7000 men to
march to the Black Gates.
[18:43] [virumor] 7000 men to be butchered.
[18:44] [virumor] possibly butchered.
[18:44] [virumor] if they win or not win.
[18:46] [virumor] the ring destroyed, but 7000 men dead, including
Isildur's heir and Mithrandir, king of Rohan and prince of dol amroth
[18:46] [virumor] that would be a Pyrrhic victory.
[18:46] [Rednell] yes, which seemed rather odd to me given as I thought
the whole idea was to restore Aragorn to the throne of Gondor
[18:46] [virumor] yes
[18:47] [virumor] but of course Aragorn was one of the main heroes
[18:48] [virumor] after so many years of preparation his way to the
throne, he didn't want to hide in the basement of MT.
[18:48] [Rednell] hmmm, if all 7000 were killed and Frodo managed to
destroy the Ring and consequently killed as there would not have been
anyone to send help, who would have ruled ME?
[18:48] [virumor] i think in that case, the West would be overthrown by
[18:48] [Rednell] Of course. And Aragorn had to prove his worthiness not
just by birthright
[18:50] [Rednell] well, we will have to wait 2 weeks to find out.
[18:50] [virumor] but indeed, all important men of ME could've been killed
together with Sauron.
[18:51] [Rednell] but that would not have made a very uplifting tale would
[18:51] [virumor] i think Faramir would've ruled ME then.. and lead Eowyn
to glory and splendour and take her out of her cage.. heh
[18:52] [Rednell] oh right, they were well on their way to good health by
[18:52] [Rednell] but there would still be war and strife in ME
[18:53] [virumor] there was also after Aragorn was king
[18:53] [Rednell] and Minas Tirith would not be restored to its former
beauty because Gimli and Legolas would not be back to bring back the
dwarves and elves with the expertise required.
[18:54] [virumor] all or nothing
[18:55] [Rednell] indeed.
[18:57] [virumor] makes things interesting
[18:57] [Rednell] But all agree to follow Gandalf, Aragorn because he said
he would continue, the Twins because their father told them to, Eomer
because he is indebted to Aragorn for helping Rohan and Imrahil because
of his allegience to Lord Aragorn.
[18:57] [virumor] mandos probably told gandalf they were gonna win, anyway
[18:58] [Rednell] I don't think fate was that locked in. There were still
choices to be made which the Valar would have no control over.
[18:58] [virumor] Mandos knows everything what is going to happen.
[18:59] [virumor] that's why he never speaks.
[18:59] [Rednell] Granted, he probably made it clear that Eru would proved
intervention where possible
[18:59] [Rednell] then he would not have told Gandalf that they would win
[19:00] [virumor] the music of the ainur is one masterplan.
[19:00] [virumor] marred by morgoth, then Eru changed it so good would
reign in the end, and evil, in the body of morgoth, destroyed.
[19:01] [Rednell] true, I have not studied The Silmarillion well, only
read it once.
[19:01] [Rednell] but I think that will make another good chatroom
[19:02] [virumor] it's the eternal religion question.
[19:02] [Rednell] On May 16th we will meet again to discuss "The Black
[19:02] [virumor] whether everything is predestiny or whether god(s) leave
their creatures free choice and find their own cause
[19:03] [Rednell] and interesting debate can come from that.
End of #bilbos-study buffer Sun May 02 19:03:30 2004