But yes I was referring to the romance. I only read roughly 2 pages of that debate and couldn't take anymore so I jumped to this page and it seemed to still be going. Glad that was settled.
To be clear, I never thought Jackson was going to present a romance between these two characters, so that part never needed settling as far as my argument went.
And I don't think the writer on that site was saying goblins is a slang term for orcs. His point was that it was only mentioned a few times in LOTR to refer to what were of course orcs. So he said it's a kind of slang, meaning another (lower case) word to refer to the same thing, though specifically in the LOTR books, not ME in general.
Well maybe he did mean it that way, but even if so, I wouldn't call the word dog 'slang' when it's used to translate German hund, for instance.
And two questions, but just out of curiosity where did you hear the filmmakers specifically say they're presenting a distinction between the two?
At another forum someone posted a quote from one of the people working on the films, and he or she said something like goblins are like spiders crawling up your leg, orcs are more in your face. The exact quote is buried in some long thread now, and since it's about the films not the books, I'm not going to spend time looking for it.
If I am incorrect about what this person from the films meant then so be it, but in my opinion the implication, at least, was that the film is presenting a distinction of some kind, and I would guess it's that orcs are 'greater' than goblins, as this seems to be a fairly popular misconception among fans as well [the misconception being that orcs are generally larger and fiercer than goblins].
If I happen across it again I'll add it here however.
And also where did you hear Tolkien say orc was used in Frodo's day? No problem, would just like to read it myself and can't find much about it.
For one place, in Tolkien's note added to The Hobbit in the 1960s (with my emphasis here):
'... (2) Orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds). Orc is the hobbits' form of the name _given at that time_ to these creatures, and it is not connected at all with our orc, ork, applied to sea-animals of dolphin-kind.'
This was added to The Hobbit after Tolkien had published Appendix F, On translation.
I think the question that would answer it all was whether or not Tolkien was basing it off ME or his own....preferences. If it was the latter, then obviously it was simply because he liked orc more. But if it's the former, then the possibilities of why are near limitless... which I'd like to think is the case.
Well the basic answer to why Tolkien used orc more in The Lord of the Rings is because he preferred the word orc to the word goblin. It's so simple it's complicated, or has become complicated at least, but there is another source called Nomenclature, or as it's sometimes called, Tolkien's Guide to the Names in The Lord of the Rings, in which JRRT explains orc and goblin once again.
I don't wholly agree with your last paragraph though. Nobody says Tolkien reverted to any anglicized words. All that means is it's the "English" version, the one we read in the book, of the Sindarin term Orch.
But that's what I disagreed with. Orc is not an English version of Sindarin orch. Note Tolkien above: Orc is not an English word. The article notes:
As the "translator" of the ancient manuscripts, he "substituted" "Goblin" for "Orch" when he translated Bilbo's diary, but for The Red Book he reverted to a form of the ancient word.
The translator did not substitute 'goblin' for Sindarin orch when he translated Bilbo's diary, and then revert to 'a form of' orch (the ancient word) -- he mostly substituted 'goblin' for orc in Bilbo's diary and then often reverted to orc for The Lord of the Rings.
This may seem like a pedantic point but it underlines a notable difference -- the essay does not treat orc itself as if it was spoken by the Hobbits back when they were alive -- it rather treats orc as an anglicized form of an ancient Sindarin word, and the new form orc thus appears as the result of a modern translator. This is not the scenario Tolkien landed on however.
Though you are definitely right the added -s is an anglicized element that doesn't really fit into Elvish etymology. And just to be nit picky, you said "For Bilbo's diary, the modern fictive translator (JRRT) did often substitute English 'goblin' for orc, and for The Lord of the Rings, in theory he left the word orc alone (but not in every instance)." I wouldn't say he often substituted goblin, when, at least in all the versions I've read, he in fact ONLY used goblin.
I used 'often' because orc still appears, at least once, in The Hobbit, in the line: '... simply stiff with goblins, hobgoblins, and orcs of the worst description.'
Not counting Elvish Orcrist of course