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Mellie shares the conditioner with Prog, Nell, and 42, and uses the hair dryer to dry herself off. Then shares it with the other 3. hhhmmmm what should we do now?
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hhhmmmm what should we do now?
I would say stick to Idril like glue because coming over the northern hills there seems to be an army of Morgoth's balrogs, and his orcs and his wolves, and with them dragons of the brood of Glaurung, now both many and terrible. Funny enough, they came at a time of festival too, when the folk were having fun.
Well, thinks Val, "I've been here before," and slips off to join the other children who were led to safety while all others perished terribly. "Oh, and stay away from the fountain," he advises his friends as he slips away. Things will get a bit warm there before too long.

Has the friendly Moderator Smilie managed to get this thread back on topic in style or what?
Now that we have let our hair down and let off a little steam, we probably should get back on topic. Big Smile Smilie

How many entrances and/or egresses did Gondolin actually have? Were they camouflaged by elf magic or what?

(If I knew this at one time I have forgotten it; I really should re-read The Silmarillion once again.)
Thay had got the main way in, which followed the course of a dry river bed, which itself was well hidden by thorn bushes etc. The dark cavern the river had cut out led into a steep gully guarded by the following defences,
1) A wooden portcullis studded with iron nails,
2) A gate of Stone with two stout towers,
3) A Gate of Bronze with three square towers,
4) A Gate of Writhen Iron with four iron towers,
5) A Gate of Silver with five Globes of marble,
6) A Gate of Gold with six marble globes,
7) A Gate of Steel wrought by Maeglin, composed of seven pillars of steel between two huge towers.....

There was also the secret way out that Idril had had built in case they had to escape. I think this was a secret tunnel which led into the mountains and then along trecherous mountain passes.

If you could fly, and dared to brave the giant eagles, there was also the way in over the mountains...

They are the only ways in that I know of, but look forward to hearing about others.
Big Laugh Smilie Big Laugh Smilie Big Laugh Smilie Big Laugh Smilie Big Laugh Smilie

ROFLMAO!!!

Very Evil Smilie
One last revenge, Grondy, can I? Of course I can.

*professionally sabotages Golly's water pipeline by putting a knot in it half way down*
*plugs her garden hose into Golly's water supply*
*runs over the whole of Gondolin and wets everyone she sees*
*spots Allyssa in a far away corner, sneaks up from behind and gives her a good shower*

There, I'm happy now... Thanks, Grondy... Smoke Smilie
Go back on topic, if you want to. Don't mind me...
*wanders off in search for another garden hose*
Ha, sabotage my pipeline, would you! Oh, alright, I'll let you have your last revenge...just make sure you get 'em soaking wet!

Er...Gondolin. Yeah...er...it means, 'rock-hidden'. From Robert Blake's 'The Complete Guide To Middle-Earth':
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Gondolin: Elven city and kingdom in the hidden valley of Tumladen, built in secret by Turgon between the 1st Age 52 and 104. Surrounded by Echoriath, the only easy entrance to Gondolin was the Way of Escape, difficult to find and heavily guarded by Gondolindrim. The cityof Gondolin, built of white stone on Amon Gwareth, was modeled on Tirion, whose beauty it came to rival.

Blessed by Ulmo, and protected by the unceasing vigilance of the Eagles, who drove off all the spies of Morgoth in the Echoriath, Gondolin remained securely hidden for centuries, with few passing outward and only four people - Maeglin, Eol, Hurin and Huor - passing inward who had not entered with Turgon at the realm's founding. During these long years Gondolin prospered and ignored the affairs of the outside world, and Morgoth could not spy it out.

Although forces of Gondolin did not fight in Dagor Bragollach, Turgon marched forth to the Nirnaeth Arnoediad with ten thousand men. Yet the secret of Gondolin was kept, for Turgon managed to withdraw unseen behind the defence of of Hurin and Huor. In the years that followed, Tuor came to Gondolin and Earendil was born. However, on his release from Angband Hurin had inadvertantly revealed to Morgoth the approximate location of Gondolin, and later Maeglin betrayed the secrets of its passes. Gondolin was overwhelmed in 511 by a horde of Orcs, Balrogs, wolves and dragons, the last of the Elven realms of Beleriand to suffer the Doom of the Noldor.

Phew. I'm not going to type anymore. Get the book & read the rest yourself. Dead Smilie *knackered*
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Ha, sabotage my pipeline, would you! Oh, alright, I'll let you have your last revenge...just make sure you get 'em soaking wet!


LOL! D*mn sure I will, Golly! Big Laugh Smilie

And since I know nothing whatsoever about Gondolin, I'll make my way out of here. In an attempt to stay on topic. I know, it's hopeless! Tongue Smilie
Big Smile Smilie Go read the Silm then Tommy. You won't regret it... there's a chapter in it called 'Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin' (Chapter 23). It's only 10 pages in all I think.

There you'll see how Earendil came to be, and meet his mom, that Elven princess with the enchanting name (Idril Celebrindal - I love that name!).

You'll also meet the original Glorfindel, get to read about his famous battle against a Balrog. Woohoo!

*btw, when you go around soaking them - take heed of Val's advice & avoid the Fountain in the main courtyard. Ecthelion, the Elf-Captain of Gondolin, is rather busy there at the mo. * Very Sad Smilie
Tommy, the Silm, really is great, you must read it.
Hmm. Now where did I hear that before? Think I'm a bit deaf on one side... Big Laugh Smilie

*Thanks for the tip, Golly* Very Big Grin Smilie They're all soaked now, anyway.
*closes the tap and takes away her garden hose* (shame of all that water being spilled Tongue Smilie )
I like Gondolin. But Numenor is better. . . It was destroyed because of Hurin!!!!! Man, his family does bring bad luck. . .
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Man, his family does bring bad luck.
But when you bear a curse of Morgoth on your shoulders and are forced to see nothing but his lies for decades, it's bound to bring a bit of bad luck with it.
Gondolin was not destroyed because of Hurin, but because Turgon did not let Hurin in at once, which is a shame.
Of course, perhaps Gondolin would have been discovered by Morgoth even if Turgon sent immediately his eagles to fetch Hurin... but at least Hurin could have a consolation of spending some peaceful weeks/months among his friends and allies, for whom he sacrified all.
Yes but if Gondolin wasn't over thrown then Morgorth would have never been overthrown by the Valar!
Why not Ross? It wasnt thanks to the sack of Gondolin that they came but.....then again.....Ahhh never mind!
I agree that Turgon did a shameful thing. His wisdom does blind him sometimes (usually the most important times, too)
The guilt for Gondolins fall I lay at Maeglins feet, though it's worth noting that there might not have been parties of Orcs on the Echoriath to capture him without Hurin. Ultimately, the fall of Gondolin was Fated; one could say it was Feanors fault.

Without the fall, Earendil never meets Elwing (since no one ever leaves, except on the odd mission to the Valar) and it was Elwings Silmaril that won Earendils passage into the West. Personally, I kinda wish the Water Artillery had stuck aruond to wait for Gothmog et al.
I wonder if Ulmo ever got chastised by the other Annatar for doing what he did... after all, he was the only Vala who never completely abandoned the Noldor : heck, it was completely due to him that Gondolin was ever founded, and hence that Erendil came into existence. Without Ulmo things would have been completely hopeless and the Noldor would've been extinct.

Why Ulmo did what he did, is another thing : there seems to be more to me than just his love for the Noldor; maybe he remembered from the Music of the Ainur - after Eru set it right - the exact events that should happen to save the Noldor (which was the founding and sack of Gondolin), and he made sure that this predestiny-branch (see the Orc-chieftains thread for more on this) would come true.
I think that's it exactly, Miruvor, and the other Ainur were too embarrassed by their lack of vision to say "Boo!" to him. I also think I mentioned that free-fated thing in Erus Thoughts, but I may be recalling it wrong.
It's probably a question of domains. When Iluvatar took Valinor from the circle of the world the rest of the Valar were beyond reach of Man etc. They became isolationist. Ulmo's home however, was in the encircling sea. This was still part of the Circle of the world, and still bordered Middle Earth. Being physically closer to them probably kept the Children closer in his heart too.
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It's probably a question of domains. When Iluvatar took Valinor from the circle of the world the rest of the Valar were beyond reach of Man etc. They became isolationist.

Well, Illuvatar took Valinor from the Circles of the World after the sinking of Numenor in the Second Age... in the First Age, Valinor was just fenced for any Noldo trespassers by means of the Enchanted Isles :

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And in that time also, which songs call Nurtal Valinreva, the Hiding of Valinor, the Enchanted Isles were set, and ail the seas about them were filled with shadows and bewilderment. And these isles were strung as a net in the Shadowy Seas from the north to the south, before Tol Eressa, the Lonely Isle, is reached by one sailing west.

There wasn't really any 'isolationism' before the sinking of Numenor.

As Manw sees all and Varda hears all when they sit on their thrones next to each other (or on each other's laps), they merely chose not to interfere and let the Doom of Mandos wear down the Noldor. All, safe Ulmo.

The question is of course, what was up with the curse ? I don't consider all the woe that fell upon the Noldor to be a result of any Vala influence : they didn't have the power to steer events in that way. As i see it, the Doom of Mandos was merely a warning to prevent the Noldor from taking the probability-branch they were about to take, as it wouldn't turn out well for them.
Had the Valar left well enough alone and not been so greedy as to want the firstborn in Aman rather than where they were supposed to be in Middle-earth, the Doom of Mandos wouldn't have been necessary, or would it?
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Had the Valar left well enough alone and not been so greedy as to want the firstborn in Aman rather than where they were supposed to be in Middle-earth, the Doom of Mandos wouldn't have been necessary, or would it?

Had the Valar not been so greedy and left the Firstborn in Middle-Earth, than Melkor would've enslaved all of them, and/or changed them all into Orcs. I myself don't prefer this scenario over what actually happened. Why do you think the Valar made war upon Melkor ?

Besides, the Valar did not force the Quendi into going into the West : twas their own free choice. A lot of Quendi never went to Valinor. Also, most Eldar who lived in Valinor, lived happily and unharmed as long as Arda lasted - there's more than just "the Noldor" in Valinor.

If you want to blame the Valar for something, then blame them for releasing Melkor. Blame them for being too good.
The Valar were the high and mighty but also benign ones in the book. I suppose it's just how Tolkien made them to be, they were that sort of character, and they played that part of a sort of protector to the Children of Iluvatar and all the other living things on earth(except maybe evil creatures). So I'd say they were not greedy, they were just too loose with their wards. They didn't exactly restrict them, probably cuz they're not allowed, but they had the power to, and things would have turned out so different if they did....
Eversince I read Silmarillion, I found the Valar quite intriguing because they are not depicted through the eyes of men (like the ancient gods were), with all the flaws, weaknesses, pettiness and faults implied by human resemblence. I actually saw them as impersonal beings (to us), not humane at all, instead possessing smth I would call "abstract traits". I also think the Valar were good in their nature (though I would go further with the interpretation of what "good" and "evil" mean in Tolkien's work and world). I don't think they intended anything else but bringing Eru's themes to fulfilment (except Melkor, of course, but he's always been more complex than the others... Big Laugh Smilie ).

The Valar cannot be judged by human perception and perspective, nor by human standards; they are way above these. Actually, the Elves could not judge their actions either, since they were Eru's Children too, no matter how great they were compared tu Men. That doesn't mean they were always right, since none but Iluvatar is without fault. I myself consider some of their decisions as being at least arguable, if not straight wrong, proven by the fact that they had no unanimity, so their opinions were actually divided. But I don't think they ever considered disobeying Eru's will; I simply think each of them interpreted in his own way the part he had to play. *shrugs*
Yes, bugyfeanor, the valar were the perfect ones. But because they were perfect, they were also imperfect. Their goodness and mercy led their charges to fall under morgoth's shadow, yet again, it was also their great goodness and mercy that delivered their charges from shadow. we can say that it is like a cycle...
Gondolin is another grave example of both the strength and weakness of the
Noldor : their love for great works and craftsmanship. In its heyday, Gondolin was the equal of Tirion the Fair, and arguably the most beautiful city ever built in Middle-Earth. It was then that the Noldor under Turgon clinged too much to their city, just like Fanor clinged too much to his Silmarils - and this proved to be their downfall, even though Lord Ulmo had forewarned them not to become too attached to their city, as the time would come that they had to leave.

But it could also be that Ulmo never fully understood the spirit of the Noldor. Aul might have understood that the Noldor would wallow in their city's beauty and splendour, and not heed Ulmo's warnings.

In the end, even Gondolin and its denizens had to fall under the Doom of Mandos - and even Ulmo could not change that fate; he merely could set in motion the course of events that would ultimately save the Children of Illvatar at the end of the First Age : the birth of Erendil, Erendil marrying Elwing and the young couple reaching Aman, after which they won the pardon of the Valar and initiated the War of Wrath.
hmmm .. im just checking out this site .. it feels awesome to see so many bonafide sil fans out there. yeah i guess gondolin was about the most tragic and beautiful place in middle earth. id definitely want to go there just to see Orfalch Echor and the steep sides of the Crissaegrim.

and it is also said that only in Gondolin did the Noldorin Elves come close to emulating Tirion upon Tuna and the description of that in The Book of Lost Tales is absolutely staggering so we can surely imagine what Gondolin would have seemed like.

I also have a question .. i just joined today and i came across something that confused me. In last weeks poll there is a wizard called Grondmaster .. is he really a ME charachter or just the council member there as a joke. Becasue it would irk me to know that there is a charachter that i dont know about. Please clarify and help.

see yall later.
Finrod. (btw i love this guy)
Grondmaster is a member of our ruling Council. No doubt he will introduce himself to you by and by. To my knowledge, there is no such character in Tolkien. Welcome to PT!
Yes, I hope the inclusion of my name in the poll was meant as a friendly joke; that's the way I took it anyway. Elf With a Big Grin Smilie

Welcome to P-T O-great-admirer of Finrod. Happy Elf Smilie
Welcome Finrod-lover! I'm so glad you've joined! Because I love Finrod too! But we're getting off-topic here, and there's a thread devoted to him on this site, so why don't you pop over to the "characters" section and open up Finrod Felagund, and then talk a bit about him. Really, just listening to others praising him makes me feel really good.
Ah, yes, wouldn't want to get off topic; back to the water fight. ;-p I like Finrod OK, but Turgon built Gondolin (including Brethil and Glingal!) so he comes first among the Noldor for me. So Turgon wins, 2 fabolously unparalleled Noldorin fortress citystates to 1. ;-p

And on the off chance you don't have a post in the Introductions thread, welcome, Finrod; enjoy your stay.
Most people who like Turgon wouldn't find Finrod too distasteful since they were best friends apart from being akin. Turgon is a nice guy. Pretty generous and understanding (like Finrod!). He gave his daughter to a man, for goodness's sake (like Finrod, who helped Beren and Luthien)! The only thing is his pride. He's pretty proud (as stated before in this thread), but then most of the Elvenkings were, so you can't really hold that against him.
Finrod comes first to me; for he realized that whatever he would build, it would fall down in ruins due to the Doom of Mandos. Turgon did forget this, and went down in (Balrog) flames together with his city.

So for me, Finrod is #1.
I don't know if Turgon forgot so much as he made a choice and lived with it. And without the Fall of Gondolin (which Mandos specifically mentions via flunky in LT1; Nargothrond didn't get a cite ;-p) do Tuor and Idril become refugees? Does Earendil ever get together with Elwing? We'll never know, will we? Of one thing we can be sure: both were essential to the eventual defeat of Morgoth. And both are among the few whose personal possessions survived to the end of the Trilogy even if they didn't.
Turgon did not heed Ulmo's warning and refused to leave his city when Tuor came. He dwindled too much, perhaps he thought he was back in Valinor and could stay out of the whole Morgothic mess for ever?

He refused to give up his kingdom, unlike Finrod, and hence lost everything. Basically, Turgon chose for himself and most of his ppl to die. Not very impressive to me; extremely unwise, instead.
I still don't think you can blame Turgon for acting that way, though Finrod also ranks higher in my mind. He was of the Valiant House of Fingolfin! Of course he'd embrace glory and death instead of dying in someone's prison after being beaten and humiliated by chains.
Well said, Cloveress. The impression I always had was of Turgon thinking, "Not this again. I went through this at Nevrast. FINE! If Gondolin goes down, I go down with it; I wouldn't want to live in a world without Belthil and Glingal anyway! Huor's already told me the rest is taken care of my son-in-law and daughter." But that's just me. Wink Smilie
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Huor's already told me the rest is taken care of my son-in-law and daughter."

Eh, didn't Huor get creamed in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, before the fall of Gondolin?
Indeed he did. Specifically, the Silm has this to say:

"The field was lost; but still Hurin and Huor and the remnant of the house of Hador stood firm with Turgon of Gondolin, and the hosts of Morgoth could not yet win the Pass of Sirion. Then Hurin spoke to Turgon, saying: 'Go now, lord, while time is! For in you lives the last hope of the Eldar, and while Gondolin stands Morgoth shall still know fear in his heart. '

"But Turgon answered: 'Not long now can Gondolin be hidden; and being discovered it must fall. ' [Incidentally, this gives us some insight into Turgons thoughts, then and later; he knew Gondolin was toast, and insisted he share its fate, whatever the cost.]

"Then Huor spoke and said: 'Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and from me a new star shall arise. Farewell!'"

That's actually FROM "On the Fifth Batle." So there. ;-p
I've always found the predicting ability of Men anad Elves in the books very strange. But accurate and useful.

And don't get the wrong idea of who I think is wiser. I still think Finrod's the more sensible one who has more of the "bigger picture" in mind. Turgon was prouder than him, and (some say) greater and nobler than him. But Turgon has more personal desires than Finrod, and more sense of personal glory too. Thus the sad end for him.
Could you please make sure you have your [] closed? I had to clean things up here.

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That's actually FROM "On the Fifth Batle."

The Fifth Beatle? That was Apu Nahasapeemapetilon.

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I've always found the predicting ability of Men anad Elves in the books very strange. But accurate and useful.

It is perfectly normal, for the spice prolongs life and extends consciousness.
Ah! I could certainly use some foresight now...
Sorry, Vir; didn't mean to provoke the Wrath of Virumor. ;-p But yeah, I think Turgon consciously and knowingly chose his fate; we may debate the wisdom of that, but not whether he foolishly disregarded Ulmo and had fate slap him in the face. As to second sight, I've always thought that an episodic and occasional gift of Eru to those whom he knew would choose the right side. Besides, which, I have bacon, so ;-p.
He was perhaps allowed to choose his own fate, but as King he had his ppl to think about, firstly. He all sentenced them to death without any chance at all, safe perhaps fleeing like thieves in the night. Very honourable.

Finrod, at least, did not drag his ppl down with him in the abyss.

The downfall of Gondolin reminds me of the part in the Erik the Red movie where the Kingdom of Atlantis is sinking beneath the waves, without any of the denizens accepting what's happening not even when the water is reaching their chins.
That's a fair point I can't really refute, sigh. As to the rest, I'll have to take your word, while wondering about the connection of Solons Atlantis to the tenth century Viking.

Edit: Gotcha. I'm saving my stat whoring for where it counts: wotmania! :tongueMyrddraal:
It's a parody made by Mel Brooks, I believe. That should tell you enough.
I loved the invisible cloak scenes in that movie, Erik the Viking . You really ought to check it out Morambar; It was written by Terry Jones and was going to be a Monty Python movie until the death of Graham Chapman. Tim Robbins was the hero and John Cleese led the evil Vikings.
OK, I'll add it to the list; two CMs can't both be wrong.
Also, the proud Norse gods were played by children. Quite an anticlimax.
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