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Thread: the Halls of Mandos?

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Okey thanks Val...I think I got it now! Orc With Thumbs Up Smilie
Wow, great thread! I'd hate to see this one wasted! I have a few questions for you (Val, Grondy, Namo, Ross and the others).
I'd like to know what has happened with Feanor's spirit. In Silm p127, it states that:

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Then he died; but he had neither burial, nor tomb, for so fiery was his spirit that as it sped his body fell to ash, and was borne away like smoke; and his likeness has never again appeared in Arda, neither has his spirit left the halls of Mandos.


Why was his death different from all the other Elves' death? I mean, I don't remember another Elf burning in the moment of departure from this world. Could it be that he was a mightier spirit entraped in an Elf body? (excuse me if I'm very wrong!) As for his dwelling in the Halls of Mandos, is it true that he will be released after the Dagor Dagorath, only to take the Silmarils to Yavanna and unmake them to regain the Trees' Light? (this one I'd really like to see!) And one last question: will Feanor be the last Elf to be released from the Halls of Mandos, due to its grievious deeds, for which he would need a great amount of time to repent? Or is this place reserved to someone else? Maeglin, maybe ...

I already thank you for your answers!

Namarie!


[Edited on 10/10/2003 by bugyfeanor]
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Why was his death different from all the other Elves' death? I mean, I don't remember another Elf burning in the moment of departure from this world. Could it be that he was a mightier spirit entraped in an Elf body? (excuse me if I'm very wrong!)
Tolkien wrote in Chapter 6 of The Silmarillion:
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Curufinw was his name, but by his mother he was called Fanor, Spirit of Fire; and thus he is remembered in all the tales of the Noldor.

Miriel was the name of his mother, ..... The love of Finw and Miriel was great and glad, ..... But in the bearing of her son Miriel was consumed in spirit and body; and after his birth she yearned for release from the labour of living. And when she had named him, she said to Finw: 'Never again shall I bear child; for strength that would have nourished the life of many has gone forth into Fanor.
And grieved Finw said:
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'Surely there is healing in Aman? Here all weariness can find rest.' But when Miriel languished still, Finw sought the counsel of Manw, and Manw delivered her to the care of Irmo in Lorien. ..... She went then to the gardens of Lorien and lay down to sleep; but though she seemed to sleep, her spirit indeed departed from her body, and passed in silence to the halls of Mandos.
She had given all her spirit to Fanor, including that of his now never-to-be siblings of her womb; she had no spirit left for herself, so she died.

A little later it says:
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... and Fanor grew swiftly, as if a secret fire were kindled within him.
I like to think that when he died, as pointed our in Bugyfeanor's quote in his above post, that part of his spirit returned to Miriel that she might again join with Finw before the end.

Anyway, this is my take on his death. I will leave it fo others to add their views on this and on your other questions.
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I like to think that when he died, as pointed our in Bugyfeanor's quote in his above post, that part of his spirit returned to Miriel that she might again join with Finw before the end.
I'm afraid, according to Morgoth's Ring this cannot be. Because the elves were supposed to be immortal, with even their spirits leaving the Halls of Mandos, marriage between them was supposed to be forever. Miriel being the first elf to die and not wish to be returned created a problem for the Valar for Finwe still wished to have more children.

They decreed that should an occurence happen in which one half of a marriage did not want to continue living, and did not wish to leave the Halls, then the other half could remarry. Before this could occur, however, the spouse in the Halls had to agree to never leave the halls again. Once separated, and a new union had been formed, it was decreed they must be always separated.

Back to the question of Feanor, however. I feel his body burned away, purely because his fea (spirit) was so strong. In Morgoth's Ring, it does mention older elves fading because their spirits are slowly consuming their bodies. I think Feanor, having the fea of his mother and his unborn siblings within him, made his spirit burn away his dead body.

The part about him returning from the Halls at the end and presenting Yavanna with the silmarils is taken from an early draft of the silmarillion (the same section which describes Morgoth being slain by Turin). Although this section was totally rewritten before being released, and the final battle was omitted, I still like to go along with its contents. They may have been written out, but they have never been contadicted as happening by later versions.

As for his place being taken by Maeglin... Again I don't think this will be the case. Maeglin is already in the Halls, and so has his own place. I think the reason Feanor will be the last to leave is due to his stubborness and pride. The Halls were not a prison, but a place of learning. Once you had discovered the faults of your earlier life and excorcised your demons etc, you were free to leave. I think Feanor's pride would have preventing him from ever admitting his faults. Without admission there can be no repentance, and without that, no release.
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I think Feanor's pride would have preventing him from ever admitting his faults. Without admission there can be no repentance, and without that, no release.


Well, I'm afraid you're right, Val: Feanor is way too proud! As for Maeglin, I was just curious how long it would take him to repent what he has done.

Anyway, thanks for your replies, Grondy and Val; they really cleared my mind! But, wait ... these are not the last questions I have for u! I'LL BE BACK SOON!!!

Namarie!

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As for Maeglin, I was just curious how long it would take him to repent what he has done.
Unlike Feanor, I see Maeglin has a spoilt brat. Like a small child he saw things that he liked and wanted them. Infatuation and jealousy can make the best of us commit deeds we'd rather forget about. It doesn't necessarily make us evil.

In addition to coverting his cousin, Maeglin is remembered for telling Morgoth the secret paths into Gondolin. A lot of people call him evil for doing this, but is he really? He's just been captured and dragged before the most powerful and evil of the Valar. In another thread in these boards people are saying Hurin was the most valient man because he managed to defy Morgoth. Maeglin did not have this courage, as most people wouldn't, and so told Morgoth what he needed to know. Admittedly, he was wrong when returning to Gondolin not to tell Turgon what had occurred, but that would have cost him his life also.

In my opinion, Maeglin did not have Feanor's strength of character or will power. In fact he was weak willed. In the Halls of Mandos, no doubt he would have capitulated with Mandos's judgements but his recovery may have been long due to his many faults.
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But, wait ... these are not the last questions I have for u! I'LL BE BACK SOON!!!
Keep them coming, mate.
Maybe Maeglin didn't have Feanor's strenght of will, nor that of Hurin, yet the seed of evil present in him cannot be forgotten so easily; he coveted Idril and that was his doing, not Melkor's!!!

Btw, I know it may sound like I hate his guts, but it's not the case; actualy, until the betrayal of Gondolin, I found his character rather interesting! I might even say I liked this Elf! Unfortunately, he must have gotten too much from his father's side and too little from his mother! Such a shame: he was brave, very inteligent and would've made a great King! I guess we'll never know ...

Namarie!

P.S.: Val, those questions will come soon!!!
I think the thing with Maeglin was that the darn elf had issues....I mean being completely silence when strangers(I know that he has Golodhrim blood but I mean he hasnt met them before so they are strangers and still kinWink Smilie ) tossing down his father into his death.....and El was definately not an evil elf....he was just an angry elf...I mean the Noldor did not have any real rights to take lands like that when others lived there for so long already.....well well....I just love this thread...so interestingWink Smilie
Well, Aule, if the Noldor did not come back to Middle-earth, than those "other" Elves u're talking about would no longer live there! hehehe

And, yeah, very interesting thread!

Namarie!
Still doesnt mean that they set up their own kingdoms!
But of course Thingols realm did last without the aid of the Noldor....but then again it was ruined by the hand of the NoldorTongue Smilie
About Maeglin : it wasn't his fault he fell in love with his cousin. It was just fate (like always). The lesson here is : don't deal with Noldoran girls.

About Eol : he's rightfully angry with the Noldor, but i think he exaggerated a bit when he tried to kill his son. It wasn't cool he thought of his wife and son as his possession. But maybe in the times before Elvish emancipation, all male Elves thought like this. And since Elves are immortal, they should still think like this since they don't change much.
Thje Noldor did have a right to set up Kingdoms. They took the lands that were being roamed by orc warbands before their arrival (that before that weere sparsely inhabited). As for Maeglin it does say he suffered terrible tortures and that nearly every one would have given in to the demands of Morgorth. He wasn't evil for falling in love with his cousin, nobody said he was. They just thought it a bit strange and repulsive. He was evil for accepting the bribe of Morgorth to have his cousin as his own and rule Gondolin (He would have most likely been betrayed anyway)
Mae govannen!

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But of course Thingols realm did last without the aid of the Noldor.


Actually, it wouldn't have lasted if it wasn't for Melian and that was fully proved when she finally left!

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...but then again it was ruined by the hand of the Noldor.


Well, that's partially true; Doriath began fading when Thingol became over-attached to the Silmarillion, leading to his own death at the hands of the Dwarves! Sorry, Aule, the Noldor only finished the job!

And Ross, yes, I think u're right: the most disturbing thing about Maeglin was his pact with Morgoth, not his wicked love, nor even his actual betrayal! At least, that's how I see it ...

Namarie!

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