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Thread: Wheel of Time through ACoS

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It would probably depend on the Maidens involved. Dunno; I'm starting to get annoyed in that a number of wotmaniettes seem very agreeable, and there'll all dancers, except for the one that's a swimmer (the operative words are: great legs) but they all have boyfriends. I mean, what's THAT about? Heck, the swimmer could probably talk circles around BOTH of us when it comes to Tolkien. As far as WoT, I think I'll stick with the tavern maids; they may as quick to stab me, but they're knives don't have the reach of an Aiel spear.

As to the young lady, she was a spy, whose job was to observe and report, but not take any action. Unless and until she found out Rand was going to Caemlyn, because he was SUPPOSED to stumble into five Forsaken when he went after Sammael. When Mat carelessly let slip what Rand told him point blank to keep to himself, well, that was that. Mat reminds me of that old joke of mine: "Yeah, that's what I need! A chick that can kick my a-s!" ;-p
Without having yet read about the events in question, I can think of three reasons: 1) the mission sort of slipped from the mind; 2) it wasn't blocked out that way on Jordon's plot outline; and more importantly, 3) was having too much fun.
Just forget the name, Grondy (sorry.) But essentially, I believe you're correct, except on the last point. When one of the Forsaken gives you an order it never COMPLETELY leaves your mind. In fact, there's a fella that spends a large part of the series doing little else besides think about his orders and sweat over how he can obey them. And now to change that name (mea culpa.)
In fact, there's a fella that spends a large part of the series doing little else besides think about his orders and sweat over how he can obey them.

That just has to be Lan after marrying Nynaeve, right?

Real wardens say "Ni-naeve".
Yes, but what do real Warders say? :P Giving Grondy the idea Nynaeve's a Forsaken; you oughtta be ashamed of yourself. That's reserved for the newbie who posted his "I've almost finished TEotW and want to know what x was about" thread. First time I've ever seen someone ASK for spoilers....
I wonder what's worse : marrying Nynaeve or marrying Semirhage (or Faile, for that matter)?

Talk about a dilemma. I'd marry Berelain.
Oh, no contest: with Semirhage it's deliberate. And I mean DELIBERATE: not just intentional, but the product of hundreds of years of research into her first love, plus all the frustration that goes with being Forsaken. I'm trying to remember where the Cabriana Mercandes incident occurred; I think you've read it, so just don't tell Grondy. That's a good illustration, as well as her behavior since she's been out of the Bore (or at least the Seals.) And I think I'll leave it there, for now.

Me, I'd take Elayne any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Prob'ly more than that, in truth. ;-p (Where's that :winky: smiley when I need it?)
Indeed, I've read the Cabriana thing : i reckon that happened in LoC.

You're surprising me in choosing Elayne - does that mean your perennial infatuation with Sorilea has ended? :-P

Now, I wonder if I shouldn't have chosen Lanfear, Jordan's version of Ar-Feiniel (in a way).
Hadn't thought of that 'til now, but I suppose you're right, at that. But yeah, I'm all about the leggy blondes. In fact, I've got NB propositions going to and fro one even now. Apparently I'm about to be Bonded, and possibly bonded. Not that I'm complaining. All I have to do is deliver a sonnet, and since I'm already writing one that just needs some work on meter in two lines....
She's gonna teach you to sing?
Ya. Hadn't thought about it quite like that. Though in that respect I already knew how to sing; it was just a matter of finding an audience.
Me, I'd take Elayne any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Prob'ly more than that, in truth. ;-p (Where's that :winky: smiley when I need it?)

In Love Smilie : inlove :
Cool, thanks, Grondy. That's a nice one, and handy, but I was thinking of the :winky: with the busy eyebrows. You know, the juvenile version. But yeah, I'm kind of a one man cheering section for Elayne. Nobody likes her or Egwene anymore. Though I don't see why that's my problem. It's pretty sad when Nynaeve is the most popular of the three, but most people at least respect her, plus she gets brownie points because of whom the object of her obsession is.
I finished Dragon Reborn this morning and have emailed my foot doctor to bring me the next one. I don't have an appointment with him for another week and that is too long to wait; he has offered to drop them off on his way home from the office or on weekends. Lucky me.

I thought it wierd that I had to wade through 600 pages of Dragon Reborn before they ever got around to really getting into action, but the last couple of chapters were worth it. And I now see why there have to be so many books in the series; at this rate, getting rid of the Forsaken will take six books.
Dragon Reborn is way better than The Great Hunt; Rand whining "No, I am not the Dragon Reborn, I'm just a simple peasant" the entire time really got on my nerves, it almost made me throw away the book in disgust.

Luckily though, that Jordan usually tends to five hundred plotlines in one book : the ending of the Great Hunt was worth the teeth grinding (like in all books he writes, apparently).
Agree with both of you. The ending of Winters Hear and Crossroads of Twilight were a real slap in the face, espcially the latter, which left me thinking "ARGGGGH! How can anyone be that stupid?!!!" Poor Virumor; Grondy has the best book in the series next, unless one agrees with me its sequel is better, and LoC is quite good as well. Poor Virumor; you have the WORST book in the series yet, then the next two. Which follow TPoD (when I said "the next two" I wasn't referring to sequence, sigh.) But KoD picks up; now the great debate is whether it can be finished in one book. Now I have to pop over to wotmania and see who's responded to my "Happy Birthday, Texas!" thread. Wink Smilie I like TGH a lot the first couple times; it was actually the first book I read (in the series, I mean.) But now I think 3-7 are all better. TDR seemed to have the right pace to me, building the suspense until, WHAM! Callandor and Belal. Though there's a young lady by the name of Belal's Girl over at wotmania that didn't care for the ending. ;-p There's a lot of character development for Rand in TDR, setting us up for the internal conflicts he later endures, including one I won't mention because it's a HUGE shock, and I've already spoiled that for one friend. You'll just have to RAFO, Grondy. ;-p

Now to wotmania, and thence to Eruwens psych thread.
If that book is so bad, and nothing really happens in it anyway, can i just skip it then?
To be honest, I've wondered that myself. Lemme get back to you and double check if there's anything that would be "spoiled" by going straight to Winters Heart (WH and CoT SHOULD be read.) Some people swear by TPoD, but I'm not one of 'em.

Edit: crud, there are a couple things; the most annoying plotline in the series starts at the end TPoD. And there's some stuff with the Seanchan, most of it desultory and much ado about nothing. Sigh. 700 pages of boredom for one decent fight. And NO MAT! Maybe that's part of why I loathe it so.
Are you saying that we have to wait an entire book to know what happened to Mat after he got buried under a wall in CoS?! Sheesh.

That seems as bad as waiting for ROTK to come out for a few years, after one knows that Frodo got captured (hey, that actually did happen to some ppl).
That is, in fact, precisely what I'm saying. And in the interval I just end up wanting to kill Perrin with my bare hands. In fact, I don't think most people STOPPED wanting that until KoD, and even now he's only gotten a repreive, a suspended sentence so he can prove he's still worth having around. Ask me which ta'veren I want iced in the Last Battle if I have to choose and it's a no brainer.
Ask me which ta'veren I want iced in the Last Battle if I have to choose and it's a no brainer.

You meanie! How can you do that to Faile...

Would it have been better for Perrin if he had picked Berelain instead, or would he still turn out to be the same floormat? I don't think so.
It's a Two Rivers thang. And a Borderlander thang. And an Altaran thang. And a Far Madding thang. And a Domani thang. And, of course, a Tar Valon thang. Running down how Jordan handles women is a running thang all its own at wotmania, either because it's decided the men roll over too easily or because all the women are !#@$#es. And then there's the "Jordan is whipped. Nightly by Harriet" position. The only thing we know for certain is whether Perrin was or wasn't a doormat for Berelain he'd have tons o' fun doing it. :winky:
Yes, but meanwhilst the reader is NOT having fun when it comes to Perrin (or Rand) and women. Only Mat's silly attempts at trying to evade his fate of becoming a floormat, is.
Aw, I don't mind Rand so much. More fun than watching Thom juggle. But Perrin... I'm sure Faile's a lot of fun behind closed doors; my suggestion is he keep her there. ;-p
I don't know, i'm getting tired of her constant references to Saldean peasant wenches (or something in the like).
Farm girls. Close enough. One thing I will say about the latter books; I noticed Jordan got a little repetitive with his metaphors toward the middle of the series, but the second half, for better or worse, is a whole new animal, and that's mostly gone. Though I did like "You put your cat in your hat and stuff it down your breeches, Rand Al'Thor!" Such an Egwene thing to say. It's right up there with the exchange from one of the parodies:

"You must listen to me, I'm Aes Sedai!"

"I thought you were Aiel now?"

"I'm Aiel Sedai. It's when you're arrogant enough for two cultures."


Speaking of stuff I saw on another site, someone also posted this:

WoT Search

Someone handily scanned the books, apparently, and you can go to that link, enter any string of text from the series, and it'll bring up all instances of that string. Neat, eh? I'd give my right arm for something like that for Tolkien.
I wonder, what's Jordan's take on turning the books into movies? Is he violently opposed to it, like Eddings, or would he sell the rights if he needs the money?

And what's the take of most WOT fans on it, in fact?

I'd give my right arm for something like that for Tolkien.

I have recorded this line for future use. MIght come in handy.
Evidently you haven't seen the "Cast List" section of wotmania. I think it's on the WMB, but I'm not sure. I can't speak for Jordan, but the fans, well, the fans have been busy. In fact there's a running argument in some quarters about whether Catherine Zeta-Jones should play Lanfear. Personally, I think she's got the looks, but not the acting chops. That's a challenging role. Think Demi might be better?
Nah, Liv Tyler all the way... :-P

Scarlett Johansson as Graendal wouldn't be too bad either.
One problem at a time; Greandel as well would be a challenging role, particularly when we factor in the eternal competition between her and Lanfear. I think I actually prefer Lanfear, believe it or not. Graendel is a tad hedonistic for me. Besides, Lanfear might eviscerate me, but she won't enslave my mind.
What?! You don't pick the blondie ?

*shakes head* Nothing is certain anymore in this world... :-P

Wasn't there a competition between Semirhage and Lanfear, instead? After all, Semirhage always wears black, for Lanfear wears white? Or is that just a typical girl thing - acting catty to each other.
Some of both, I think, though the competition does seem a lot stronger there than with Graendel. I think deep down Greandel knows she can never match Lanfear in the Power OR as a sex kitten, and it's resentment of that, rather than the hope of besting her, which drives her. But then, in all honesty, I think in both cases it's only a competition if you don't ask Lanfear. There's another huge debate for you: is Lanfear the most powerful female channeler ever because of a bargain with the Finns, or inherently. I lean toward the latter for a number of reasons I don't want to address until Grondy's finished TFoH. Elf Winking Smilie So hurry it up! Nah, I take it back; savor the best three books in the series, IMHO. Our little ta'veren are growing up *sniff*.

Hope I got that edit right.
Well wasn't she not only the most powerful female channeler, but also the most powerful Forsaken after Ishamael? That's pretty impressive, so I think that she'd be easily able to cream Graendal & Semirhage at the same time, if she'd want to.

A bit ridiculous that she turned over to the Dark One only because she got dumped by LTT, but hey the "Fatal Attraction" shtick always serves as a good plotline doesn't it?

I'm not sure that was all of it, though the whole "Thirteen Eyeless in One Big Link" thing played a factor, I think. But I think ol' Mad Lews Therin was dead on in describing her ultimate motivations, if not necessarily her attraction to him (she kinda got illused in that, IMHO, though she certainly earned it later.)

I dunno if she was the most powerful Forsaken though, at the risk of getting into another infamous controversy. We never get a definitive statement of Ishamaels strength in the Power, but The World of Robert Jordans The Wheel of Time (generally known as "the Big White Book" or just BWB, for obvious reasons) says Demandred would have been the most accomplished man of his Age had it not been for LTT, who made Demandred merely "almost" in every sense, even age (Demandred, according to the BWB, was born a single day after LTT.) Obviously he can't be second only to LTT AND second to Lanfear, but then many agree with you that Ishamael is strongest, and that would make Demandred second to LTT only if the latter was no more powerful than Ishamael. Jordan is on record that while men are, as a rule, stronger in raw Power than women, women tend to be correspondingly more dextrous, and it may be Ishamael was simply very very strong and, owing as much to his abilities as philosopher than as channeler, most dextrous of men, or at least after LTT, so that despite slightly less strength he was more capable overall than Demandred. Or perhaps vice versa; "accomplished" is a rather vague adjective.

But yeah, I agree Lanfear could rip Graendel or Semirhage apart with little effort, though I don't know she could do it were the two linked. Of course, the Forsaken being the Forsaken, it would take the imminent threat of a direct assault by Lanfear to get the two to link. Someone was kind enough to provide a handy Aragorn quote in that thread, which I was in turn able to find by remembering the link to the search function is in Eruwens Psychoanalysis thread (which long since passed beyond me, sigh, but good luck and God bless her) in General discussion of the Trilogy:

"It is difficult with these evil folk to know when they are in league and when they are cheating one another."

Sums up the Forsaken nicely, I think.
Rand, Mat, and Morraine have just each individually stumbled out of the crooked red door in a lower dungeon of the Stone and everyone is off to diverse parts in The Shadow Rising. This one has a tad bit more action than the last one. Now, if I can just remember who is kissing whom, and who is going where with whom, and who are the baddies, and which of the good guys I think are really the baddies...
I have a hard time keeping up with locations, too, as Virumor could tell you if we were into giving out spoilers. I'm still blushing over that one....

Oddly enough, I'm pretty sure that scene you just referenced has recently come up at wotmania. IIRC, Moiraine hit the ceiling at the idea of Rand channeling in "Finnland" as it's known (flaming sword, right? Gotta like that flaming sword; almost as useful as Callandor.) But yeah, Perrin's kissing Faile, Mat's kissing any girl too slow to get away, and Rand's kissing... well, RAFO. ;-p Plus we have Thom deftly slipping in numerous references to our own world, one of the charms of WoT for me.
Rand's kissing... well, RAFO

Snap out of it. Rand's already kissing Elayne.

Or rather, Elayne's kissing Rand after trapping the young lad in every corner she can find(and Lanfear already desperately trying to).
Just making sure. Hey, I know what I'm doing. Besides, Rand starts making his plans (independent of Moiraines, which she meekly and enthusiastically accepts, like a good biddable Aes Sedai... NOT!) before Elayne starts snuggling him into corners. Lucky so-and-so. Personally, I think Rand got the pick of the litter, but others disagree with me. To say the least.
So Rand was making all those plans primarily to get out of Elayne's claws? That's an interesting take on events. :-P
He started making them BEFORE she came after him, once again, and thus independent of her overtures. Though he could do a lot worse than the leggy blonde Daughter Heir of the largest and possibly most populous nation in the Westlands. Hard to find women willing to marry a man who can channel, fated to go mad and rot inside and out. And yet.... Elf Rolling Eyes Smilie
Women always go for the bad boys, don't they?

Well, all safe Faile, for some reason. Really, why does the niece of the queen of Saldea (or so i understood), etc. settle for a peasant, anyway.

Did she pull an Éowyn, sensing that a ta'veren would lead her to "honour & glory" ? That could explain why she seems a bit disappointed in her spouse a couple of books later when he lets himself be sent all over the place by Rand.
Yes, I noticed Faile almost slipped and acted ignoble, like a noble, when she wanted to tell someone off; like 'off-with-your-head'.

They have just entered the Ways; are a sailing on a clipper ship; and are heading for some schooling in the Waste. I always used to hate Edgar Rice Burroughs for splitting up Tarzan/John Carter from his companions, with every chapter centerered around a different person, and leaving the last ones up in the air. At least here the author jumps around between the characters within the chapters so the timeline is better maintained.
Yeah, I think you've diagnosed it Vir, though maybe there was a little ta'veren pull; who knows? Perrin certainly does his level best to be rid of her, but she's like a bad cough: you can't shake her, and she may prove fatal in the end. As to the rest, I'm saving my comments until Rand and Co. have spent some more time in the Waste; looootta stuff happens there, including one of the most popular scenes in the book. Myself, I prefer the end of TFoH for a number of reasons, but the scene of which I'm thinking is a close second. But I'll wait 'til Grondy's read it. ;-p

Any word on TPoD yet, Vir? Have you become Taken with it yet? ;-p
No. Getting TPoD into the library here seems quite a path of daggers.

But as a means of warming-up for it, I'm reading Dostoevsky. That Raskolnikov is such a jolly fellow.
Perrin and Company have set the captives free; are sending the farmers to the home town for their defense; and I think he is next going Trolloc hunting. Meanwhile Rand and Company have completed their trial in the ancient Aiel city, with major knowledge and minor wounds; and Rand has called for a meeting of all the clan chiefs.

Seeing history through the eyes of your ancestors can be quite unnerving, eh what. Seems a little Dunelike. Did someone write this before Herbert and Jordan, or is this a typical Shamon ritual?
Vision quest in the sweat tent, I guess. The Aiel are funky; it's hard to trace all the influences, but they seem to be Gaelic Native Americans. And before you ask, no, no one has been able to determine why they weren't all killed off by melanoma centuries ago.

But yeah, that's a nice scene, or scene cluster, IMHO (and a great way for Jordan to reveal some record of the War of the Power, not to be confused with the War of the Powers.) In fact, many at wotmania! choose it as their favorite, though I still prefer the end of TFoH. I found the bit with the Aes Sedai with the Dashain Aiel fetish particularly touching (and once again, it explains the genetic aspects of Rands channeling ability.) We get a nice multigenerational overview of the Decline and Fall of the Age of Legends Empire. Plus we get to see the drilling of the Bore. This is the kind of epic scale stuff that makes books 4-6 so awesome to me. Unfortunately they seem to have been a bit draining for Jordan, who was supposedly counseled to be less intense in his creative habits after LoC, and it starts to show, I think, in 8-10.

I'm not sure what to tell ya, Vir. My title page says © 1998, so I don't know what's holding them up so long. Of course, it would make Mikes day if you went to wotmania! and did an Amazon order. I'm just not sure how much I can justify doing that. The paperback would prob'ly be worth the cash, but for all I insist on hardback WoT books, if it wasn't for matching the rest of the series there's no way I'd have payed that much for TPoD. On the upside, at this point as much as I've bashed it you can't be disappointed, and might even be pleasantly surprised.
I'm not sure how many fans there are at PT (nor really sure of what amyloidosis is beyond what Jordan has said) but I thought I'd post this link to some sad news that I trust will be merely an annoying memory in a few months time:

Jordans Announcement

If you go to the left and click "WoT" then "Message Board" there's also a Get Well Card you can sign that will be sent to Jordan within the month.
Rats, that's a bummer! Orc Sad Smilie Why do the Good Guys always get stuck with the cruddy endings. I lost a friend a year older than me to non-H-lymphoma a few years back. It was in remission for about fifteen years when it finally came back and the stem cell routine didn't take. Hopefully with our prayers, the technology has advanced enough that Jordan can get another twenty-five years in order to finish his story and more importantly, in order to celebrate is 50th wedding anniversary.
Well, hopefully Mr Jordan will get well.

Interestingly, though, he wrote that he intends on finishing the "main story arc", so I wonder if he's planning on writing 500 sequels? The Dragon Reborn Reborn (etc)? Or move the story to a former or later time on the wheel?
Well, it would be easier to flesh out the period just before the last breaking; or maybe he could do the one before that. And then there is the 3000 years in between that he could elaborate. I think it would be too much work to do the future reincarnations.
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