Sepdet originally began this thread with the following post.



Peredhil replied

They all would have left eventually, this being the main reason why Tolkien abandoned 'The New Shadow', a story set in the fourth age, centred around Gondor. Without the presence of the Elves, there was no real element of Fantasy, rendering the story useless. I only just got up, and don't feel in the mood to research inot your individual questions. Maybe someone else can.

Well you’ve raised some very interesting questions here sepdet, questions that I would like to know the answers to myself. Unfortunately, I don’t think I have any definitive answers for you, but I would like to offer my thoughts on a few things you touched on.

First off in regards to whether or not Arwen repented her choice to live a mortal life, I don’t think she ever regretted the decision she made to be with Aragorn, but I think until the end, she didn’t fully understand the doom of men, and she didn’t have an accurate vision of how bitter it was going to be. At the end of the tale of Aragorn and Arwen in the appendices of ROTK she states, ’not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive.’ Elrond had a premonition of this much earlier when he told Aragorn, ’Alas my son! I fear that to Arwen the Doom of Men may seem hard at the ending.’ I think what Tolkien gives us here is a classic case of someone being so blinded by love that in a way, they lose their own ability to see all things clearly. Arwen knew what she was doing, and she was certainly aware of the consequences of her choice, but I think she loved Aragorn so much that she was unable to fully understand what it was going to be like until the end, and then it was too late.

How many times have all of us seen real life examples of this playing out? For example, like when one of your best friends (or you yourself) gets involved in a new relationship, and their just so into the person they are involved with that they can’t see the same things that friends, or other people on the outside can see, and it’s always never until the end that they finally can see things clearly again. I’m not in any way suggesting that what happened between Aragorn, and Arwen was a bad thing, because I think they had a pure love, it was the real thing. You won’t ever know what real love is until you loved someone you’ve had to let go, and Arwen definitely had to let go. Not only of Aragorn to his death in the end, but also of her heritage, her family, and who she was as an Elf. Again, I don’t think she regretted her choice because she loved Aragorn that much, but I just don’t think she had total comprehension until it was too late.

It’s very interesting to wonder whether or not she would have repented her choice after Aragorn passed. It seems clear to me that at the time of his death, he wanted her to repent her choice, and go to Valinor, but as you’ve stated, Arwen was unaware that there was still a possible means for her to take the straight road. In the appendices of ROTK, Tolkien lists the year of 1541 in the fourth age as not only the year of Aragorn’s death, but also as the year that Legolas built his ship. So again, as you’ve pointed out, it would seem that there was a means for her. I think that since she left, and went to Lorien alone immediately after Aragorn died, and since Legolas didn’t build his ship until after Aragorn’s death, that it’s entirely possible that as you said, she just didn’t know that there was a means for her. Then again, maybe she did know, sadly I don’t think any of us ever will, but it seems clear to me that she definitely choose to fade alone. Who knows, it may have been too late for her after Aragorn died to repent no matter what because, when Aragorn dies it says, ’the light of her eyes was quenched, and it seemed to her people that she had become cold and grey as nightfall in winter that comes without a star.’ I think Tolkien may have been trying to tell us here that she was past the point of no return if you will, even if she wanted to repent.

One thing is for sure, as Val mentioned from the Doom of the Noldor spoken by Mandos, I’m certain that Arwen died as a shadow of regret upon Cerin Amroth. She didn’t regret her choice, but she had to suffer that fate. I’m also quite certain that there were some other Elves that stayed to meet this fate as well. Tolkien makes it clear on page 366 of the Silmarillion that all of the Noldor that remained in Middle Earth left at the end of the third age, and last of all the three ring bearers, so any Elves that were left (with the exception of Cirdan, Celeborn, and a few others) would have definitely been Wood-elves. My gut feeling is that Thranduil did not go to Valinor. With him being as stubborn, and weird as he was, I personally think that he along with some other Wood-elves would have choose to stay, and fade. Elladan, and Elrohir I’m not sure about. Since things tend to happen in cycles, and history repeats itself in Tolkien’s world (just like real life), I tend to believe that just as Elrond choose to be counted among the Eldar, and Elros choose to be counted among men, that probably Elladan, and Elrohir did the same thing. Also, I do believe that Legolas, and Gimli took other Elves with them when they left. The first time I read ROTK, I got the same impression that you did, that it was just the two of them alone, but now I get the sense that there was definitely more than just the two of them. It’s the wording that Tolkien uses, ’and with him, it is said, went Gimli the Dwarf.’ What I get out of this now is, that Tolkien is implying that there were others, but that Gimli was the notable he choose to single out.

One thing I find very fascinating is the fact that when Cirdan gives Gandalf the Ring of Fire, he tells him that, (page 366, the Silmarillion) ’I will dwell by the grey shores, guarding the Havens until the last ship sails.’ Well if Legolas had the last ship, hmmm?

There is a lot more I would like to say regarding the excellent questions you have raised, but I’ll wait for now. I’m very interested to see how this thread evolves, and to read some other peoples contributions.

I don't think this was an oversight. He, like Niggle, just ran out of time; he couldn't clear up all the loose ends in his life-time. And if he had, we wouldn't be having this wonderful discussion.

My gut feeling, having no textual basis to go on, is that the twins if and when they chose to sail off into the Sunset, would have learned ship-wrighting and built their own vessel in which to do so. It may be however, that one of them was smitten by a fair Telerian Elfmaid and chose to stay in Middle-earth while his brother made the final departure--this story could be the plot of another of your (plural form) fine fanfiction stories.

I don't think the "Last Ship" was necessarily the last ship to sail for Valinor, it was just the last ship built by Cirdan and carrying the last of the Noldor. Of course this is just rationalizing to clear up some loose ends, but it makes the tails more palatable to me.

Just because Legolas built his own ship doesn't mean Cirdan already left. How did he get the knowledge to build a ship. I believe Cirdan must have helped him with his ship building.