Quote:
Like any good epic or myth, dreams, prophetic or merely symbolic or psychological, pop up quite a bit.
I was just pondering some of Frodo's. They seem to be a mixture of his fears and recent experiences (as most dreams are), laced with dreams of the past or future.
At Crickhollow he dreams of a forest looming around him and creatures sniffing for him: obviously his concern for the road they mean to take in the morning, coupled with his first run-in with the Black Riders. Classic dream psychology.
But the second half of that dream is more complex: he dreams of climbing a white tower, hearing the Sea, and a great storm coming with lightning, and he's struggling to climb Again, dreams often have a "quicksand" aspect where one struggles to make progress; it's a common sort of anxiety, suited to the quest he's just starting.
The night before he had just met a party of High Elves coming back from the White Tower (I can't remember how explicit that is in LOTR; it's explained more fully in The Road Goes Ever On). Evidently he picked up one what they'd been doing, whether or not they actually told him. There's a special Palantir on that tower letting one looking towards Tol Eressea, and perhaps even into the past.
Frodo could be dreaming of his own fate. But the storm reminds me of Gilgalad watching for the arrival of Elendil after the fall of N’menor.
In that passage Tolkien notes the sound of the Sea often troubled Frodo. It's that Elvish air about him again; he's got the sea-longing even before Legolas! I wonder whether he ever heard it before the Ring came to him.
Does Frodo dream of the fall of N’menor at any time? I can't quite remember. I know he sees, in the Mirror, ships which are either Elendil's or the Corsairs Aragorn hijacks. Also he sees a boat leaving Mithlond, and it's easy to geuss which.
At Bombadil's house Frodo dreams of going to Valinor. At Bree he dreams of hoofbeats which coul be Shadowfax or the Riders on his tail (or, knowing dreams, both).
Also I think he dreamed of Gandalf imprisoned somewhere in there. Again I wonder whether the Ring is extending his powers of awareness, or whether prophetic dreams are just a staple of this style of literature. I don't think any of the other hobbits get them, though, except when Sam actually looks into the Mirror, or when Bombadil's stories give them a premonition of the Rangers and Aragorn.
Aragorn has flashes of prophecy himself: he warns Gandalf about Moria, and in the Tale of Arwen adn Aragorn in the Appendix he actually whips out a prophecy on Elrond, which is a bit cheeky!
Faramir and Frodo remind me of one another so often. Faramir keeps dreaming of the fall of N’menor, a great wave. Also, of course, he and his brother dreamed the Sword that was Broken prophecy-- Faramir more often than his brother. I suspect this is common in those of high N’menorean blood, and Faramir seems closer to his ancestors than many. Is that from their thin Elvish blood? Maia? Why does Frodo have it?
Finally, listening to the radio play again today I noticed Pippin commenting to Merry in the houses of healing, "Was there ever anyone like Aragorn? Except Gandalf. I think they must be related!"
I had never really caught that before, but yes, they are very distantly related, aren't they? At least in the sense that Aragorn's got a touch of Maiar.
No very profound remarks here; just musings on an interesting aspect of the books.
Like any good epic or myth, dreams, prophetic or merely symbolic or psychological, pop up quite a bit.
I was just pondering some of Frodo's. They seem to be a mixture of his fears and recent experiences (as most dreams are), laced with dreams of the past or future.
At Crickhollow he dreams of a forest looming around him and creatures sniffing for him: obviously his concern for the road they mean to take in the morning, coupled with his first run-in with the Black Riders. Classic dream psychology.
But the second half of that dream is more complex: he dreams of climbing a white tower, hearing the Sea, and a great storm coming with lightning, and he's struggling to climb Again, dreams often have a "quicksand" aspect where one struggles to make progress; it's a common sort of anxiety, suited to the quest he's just starting.
The night before he had just met a party of High Elves coming back from the White Tower (I can't remember how explicit that is in LOTR; it's explained more fully in The Road Goes Ever On). Evidently he picked up one what they'd been doing, whether or not they actually told him. There's a special Palantir on that tower letting one looking towards Tol Eressea, and perhaps even into the past.
Frodo could be dreaming of his own fate. But the storm reminds me of Gilgalad watching for the arrival of Elendil after the fall of N’menor.
In that passage Tolkien notes the sound of the Sea often troubled Frodo. It's that Elvish air about him again; he's got the sea-longing even before Legolas! I wonder whether he ever heard it before the Ring came to him.
Does Frodo dream of the fall of N’menor at any time? I can't quite remember. I know he sees, in the Mirror, ships which are either Elendil's or the Corsairs Aragorn hijacks. Also he sees a boat leaving Mithlond, and it's easy to geuss which.
At Bombadil's house Frodo dreams of going to Valinor. At Bree he dreams of hoofbeats which coul be Shadowfax or the Riders on his tail (or, knowing dreams, both).
Also I think he dreamed of Gandalf imprisoned somewhere in there. Again I wonder whether the Ring is extending his powers of awareness, or whether prophetic dreams are just a staple of this style of literature. I don't think any of the other hobbits get them, though, except when Sam actually looks into the Mirror, or when Bombadil's stories give them a premonition of the Rangers and Aragorn.
Aragorn has flashes of prophecy himself: he warns Gandalf about Moria, and in the Tale of Arwen adn Aragorn in the Appendix he actually whips out a prophecy on Elrond, which is a bit cheeky!
Faramir and Frodo remind me of one another so often. Faramir keeps dreaming of the fall of N’menor, a great wave. Also, of course, he and his brother dreamed the Sword that was Broken prophecy-- Faramir more often than his brother. I suspect this is common in those of high N’menorean blood, and Faramir seems closer to his ancestors than many. Is that from their thin Elvish blood? Maia? Why does Frodo have it?
Finally, listening to the radio play again today I noticed Pippin commenting to Merry in the houses of healing, "Was there ever anyone like Aragorn? Except Gandalf. I think they must be related!"
I had never really caught that before, but yes, they are very distantly related, aren't they? At least in the sense that Aragorn's got a touch of Maiar.
No very profound remarks here; just musings on an interesting aspect of the books.
Grondmaster replied
Quote:
The night before he had just met a party of High Elves coming back from the White Tower (I can't remember how explicit that is in LOTR; it's explained more fully in The Road Goes Ever On). Evidently he picked up one what they'd been doing, whether or not they actually told him. There's a special Palantir on that tower letting one looking towards Tol Eressea, and perhaps even into the past.
The night before he had just met a party of High Elves coming back from the White Tower (I can't remember how explicit that is in LOTR; it's explained more fully in The Road Goes Ever On). Evidently he picked up one what they'd been doing, whether or not they actually told him. There's a special Palantir on that tower letting one looking towards Tol Eressea, and perhaps even into the past.
Yes, in The Road Goes Ever On it says
Quote:
After the fall of Elendil, the High-Elves took back this Stone into their own care, and it was not destroyed, nor used again by Men.
After the fall of Elendil, the High-Elves took back this Stone into their own care, and it was not destroyed, nor used again by Men.
This comes from footnote 2, page 352, Appendix A, RotK (Viggo's Aragorn on the cover), where it says:
Quote:
The only Stone left in the North was the one in the Tower on Emyn Beraid that looks toward the Gulf of Lune. That was guarded by the Elves, and though we never knew it, it remained there, until Cirdan put it aboard Elrond's ship when he left... But we are told that it (this palantir) was unlike the others and not in accord with them; it looked out only to Sea. Elendil set it there so that he could look back with 'straight sight' and sea Eress’a in the West; but the bent seas below covered N’menor for ever.
The only Stone left in the North was the one in the Tower on Emyn Beraid that looks toward the Gulf of Lune. That was guarded by the Elves, and though we never knew it, it remained there, until Cirdan put it aboard Elrond's ship when he left... But we are told that it (this palantir) was unlike the others and not in accord with them; it looked out only to Sea. Elendil set it there so that he could look back with 'straight sight' and sea Eress’a in the West; but the bent seas below covered N’menor for ever.
I didn't remember that and I doubt if it was capable of seeing any timeshift except the small loss due to the speed of light. Of course I may be wrong and that crumpet is documented elsewhere.
