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Thread: Did Frodo Know??

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Ashley276
has made 49 posts and is a Rohirrim from Edoras and is not online.
Posted Friday 25th June 2004 (04:30am)
At some point in the long journey to destroy The Ring did Frodo know that he would never really be able to return to the one place in Middle Earth the he truly loved?? I mean to me that is the saddest part of the whole story that after all the toil and everything that Frodo and Sam went through that Frodo was just too wounded to stay and that he just could not pick up the pieces of the life that he once had.
Quote:
Return of the King page 338 So I thought too once. But I have been too deeply hurt, Sam. I tried to save The Shire, and it has been saved but not for me. I must often be so, Sam, when things are in danger someone has to give them up, lose them so that others may keep them

That to me just seemed to be the saddest thing that he had to give up all that he really loved and cherished becuase he was just too wounded to continue there. I just wonder if anyone else thinks that at some point Tolkien gives a hint that Frodo will never really be able to return to what he loves. I think that part more than any other really just made me cry. Aside from "I can't carry it for you but I can carry you and it"

ashley 276
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Vee
has made 2834 posts and is an Elf from Lothlorien and is not online.
Posted Friday 25th June 2004 (11:10am)
Without hope there is only hope.

I think Frodo had to come to that point where he knew he wasn't going to return but that finishing his mission was all he had to do. He always knew he was on a mission to save The Shire and Middle Earth but I don't think he fully realised exactly what that meant until well into the journey and he saw what they were all up against. His sheltered Shire existence was destroyed and he came to know what evil truly was. He also knew love, hope, friendship and duty even though that would be the death of him.

Once inside Mordor, with the amount of evil and the Eye of Sauron, I think he lost all hope, even hope of destroying the ring. But in losing that hope, he lost everything and having nothing to lose all he could do was carry on. This didn't bring hope to Frodo but hope was there, hope that in his desperation he would still destroy the ring.

There were little things that happened which I think kept the spark alive, in particular from the
RotK - The Land of Shadow

Quote:

"Look at it, Mr Frodo!' said Sam. 'Look at it! The wind's changed. Something's happening. He's not having it all his own way. His darkness is breaking up out in the world there. I wish I could see what is going on!'


Quote:
As it went it sent out a long shrill cry, the coice of a Nazgul; but this cry no longer held any terror for them: it was a cry of woe and dismay, ill tiding for the Dark Tower. The Lord of the Ringwraiths had met his doom.


Quote:
There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing; there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach
.

I think Frodo's biggest hope was Sam, who had worn the ring and resisted it knowing that 'one small garden of a free gardener was all his need and due....'




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Virumor
has made 3567 posts and is a Rohirrim from Edoras and is not online.
Posted Friday 25th June 2004 (01:06pm)
Frodo was of course desperate due to what the Ring did to him. The closer he came to Mt Doom, the more the Ring dominated his mind until coming to full control in the Shards. Frodo hardly had the power to think for himself in the end... the Ring probably tried to seduce him with cunning words like "put me on, the mission is hopeless for you anyway, as there is no return", etc.

Sam rightfully kept on trusting the powers of Good, whoever this was. For Sam, the power of Good was mostly Galadriel.
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Ashley276
has made 49 posts and is a Rohirrim from Edoras and is not online.
Posted Friday 25th June 2004 (08:19pm)
I just wanted to see what others thought on this. When I read RoTK the first time I was so sad that Frodo made the decision to leave The Shire but then the more I thought about it I think that he knew at some point he would never be the same after this journey. Sam was the one that kept the hope going once they got to Mordor becuase like Vee said when all hope is gone only hope is left and I think that Sam at some point knew that Frodo had lost all hope of ever even completing the mission much less returning to The Shire.

Ashley276
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Helmthh
has made 26 posts and is a Rohirrim from Edoras and is not online.
Posted Monday 28th June 2004 (07:57pm)
I don't know that Frodo really knew that he could not stay in the Shire until he got back there and attempted to resume his old life and found out he could not carry on. I believe he simply grew tired of dealing with the anniversaries of the stabbing, loss of Gandalf in Moria, etc. I don't think he ever realized, until he was finally writing his tale, how deeply the wounds of the Ring were.

Perhaps he really lost all hope of being able to resume his normal life when he claimed the Ring for himself inside Mt. Doom. Perhaps it happened when he entered Mordor. But I don't know that Frodo himself had realized it until he returned to the Shire or for some time after.
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Grondmaster
has made 25465 posts and is a Dwarf from Glittering Caves and has sailed into the West.
Posted Monday 28th June 2004 (10:25pm)
When Frodo was in the valleys of his misery, having been wounded by knife, sting, and tooth, he also may have started blaming himself for Gollum's death. Had he tossed the ring instead of secombing to its power, Gollum might still be alive, off his rocker, but still alive. I think this also weighed heavily on his mind.
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Valedhelgwath
has made 4245 posts and is an Elf from Rivendell and is not online.
Posted Tuesday 29th June 2004 (07:28pm)
Obviously the wounds and loss of the Ring played a huge part, but I think a major factor was just how much his life had changed in the time he was away from the Shire. It was a sleepy little place with no adventures. Perhaps the ideal place to try and recover after what he had been through, but perhaps too quiet. How would it feel to someone who had seen all that Frodo had seen, to return to a life where it was frowned upon to be eccentric even. I've never been away to war myself, but I imagine many of the troops who had fought in WWI perhaps found it difficult re-adjusting to life back at the farm or factory once it was over.

Look what happened to the others. Sam was only a gardner. He came back from his supporting role in the adventure to a new wife, 13 kids, and the seven times Mayor of Michel Delving. Merry and Pippin, again with just supporting roles within the fellowship, came back to be Master of Buckland and Thane of the Shire respectively. What was there for Frodo? The Shire had nothing for someone who had bore the fate of the world on their shoulders, and had pushed themselves beyond what they believed to be the point of no return in order to save the world. Had Rivendell remained, I think Frodo may have found peace there, as Bilbo had done, but that was no longer an option for him.

At the end of the day, who would turn down the opportunity to live the rest of their days in the West. It would be interesting to know how they adapted to life over there, though.
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Ashley276
has made 49 posts and is a Rohirrim from Edoras and is not online.
Posted Wednesday 30th June 2004 (04:24am)
I think that the point that Valedhelgwath makes in the pp is a great one. I guess that when I was reading RoTK I never thought of it that way. But then there is a part towards the end when Frodo and the rest are on their way to Bree and there is the following quote:

Quote:
"Alas! There are some wounds that cannot be wholly cured" said Gandalf " I fear it may be so with mine" said Frodo "There is no real going back. Though I may come to The Shire, it will not seem the same; for I shall not be the same. I am wounded with knife, sting and tooth and a long burden. Where shall I find rest"


I think that one quote really tells someone what is going to happen in the end and that Frodo knew after his long journey that he really was too wounded and had suffered too much to return to pick up the pieces of the life that he left behind. I think that in the end while Frodo did not understand I think that Sam knew and so did the others that once the journey to destroy The Ring was over there would be no going back to the things that he knew and loved because ultimately those things were forever changed for him though he loved them beyond all he knew that he could not continue in his old life. I think that the pp makes the point that had he had the option of staying in Rivendell he would have done so, but I think that he knew that foul things were afoot in The Shire long before they ever even got to Bree, I think that Frodo knew that there was one more part to the journey before he could rest and try to heal his body and his mind and of course he had to put all of Bilbo's things in order as well.

Ashley276
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Elanor
has made 25 posts and is an Elf from Rivendell and is not online.
Posted Wednesday 30th June 2004 (06:13am)
Hi Vee and Ashley (for a newbie, she's asking all the right questions..)

No I think Frodo thought it was a fool's errand from first to start, he never expected to suceed, because he knew deep down he could not destroy the ring.

Rescues beyond hope? His response is dampened, even given what he had to go through and how much he loved Aragorn he was a) eager to go home, b) disappointed that Bilbo didn't make it to Gondor...

In the aftermath he is often sick (more sick at heart than physically ill) but does his best to hide it, takes a back seat and wants no honours... which go to Merry and Pippin principally, but even to Sam...

I think, like Galadriel, he knew but hoped.... like Elrond and Gandalf he could see that things would change, and that he could save some, create something new, but might not live himself to enjoy it.... we don't really know after all, if he ever came back, because unlike other voyagers... he was going to rest .... until he was healed and could choose... there is a suggestion that Sam may have later followed him, later still Gimli and Legolas... but.. suggestion.....

Did he know... ?
I think the only thing he knew all along was that the quest was hopeless, hung by a thread, and that Sam had more hero stuff in him than he even he knew.
His hobbit pride was stung once or twice.... but he never really ever thought success, and if it wasn't for Golllum, a crumbling wall and a bit of luck, he would have been right!
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