At the end of ROTK we all know Bilbo and Frodo join Gandalf, and some elves to the undying lands. I'm curious to actually find out how they gained access to the blessed realm. I was told Arwen's gift to Frodo was to take her place in the voyage, but how does Biblo fit in, if this is the case?
Earendil was the only person of an alien race allowed to step foot in Aman. Were Frodo and Bilbo granted a similar fate such as Earendil's? Manwe and the council passed their judgement on the 2 and gave them the grace to pass?
Also i heard that Sam gets to tag along with the other 2 hobbits, any confimation on this?
Thread: On hobbits going to Aman
Frodo and Bilbo (and later Sam according to the appendixes) were allowed to enter Aman becuase they had carried the One Ring, not because Arwen had given up her seat.
Yes Sam went in the end, Merry and Pippin lived out their lives on Middle Earth (how that happened is kinda sweet, they had a strong friendship with King Eomer). Bear in mind, the ring bearers never got as far as Tol Eressa and never actually made it fully to Aman.
He still is the only one.
No, Tol Eressa. That is the furthest they were allowed to go.
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Earendil was the only person of an alien race allowed to step foot in Aman.
Earendil was the only person of an alien race allowed to step foot in Aman.
He still is the only one.
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Were Frodo and Bilbo granted a similar fate such as Earendil's? Manwe and the council passed their judgement on the 2 and gave them the grace to pass?
Were Frodo and Bilbo granted a similar fate such as Earendil's? Manwe and the council passed their judgement on the 2 and gave them the grace to pass?
No, Tol Eressa. That is the furthest they were allowed to go.
Tolkien has something to say about this in his Letters....
and
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...there always seem to be exceptions): and so certain 'mortals', who have played some great part in Elvish affairs, may pass with the Elves to Elvenhome. Thus Frodo (by the express gift of Arwen) and Bilbo, and eventually Sam (as adumbrated by Frodo); and as a unique exception Gimli the Dwarf, as friend of Legolas and 'servant' of Galadriel.
I have said nothing about it in this book, but the mythical idea underlying is that for mortals, since their 'kind' cannot be changed for ever, this is strictly only a temporary reward; a healing and redress of suffering. They cannot abide for ever, and though they cannot return to mortal earth, they can and will 'die' - of free will, and leave the world.
...there always seem to be exceptions): and so certain 'mortals', who have played some great part in Elvish affairs, may pass with the Elves to Elvenhome. Thus Frodo (by the express gift of Arwen) and Bilbo, and eventually Sam (as adumbrated by Frodo); and as a unique exception Gimli the Dwarf, as friend of Legolas and 'servant' of Galadriel.
I have said nothing about it in this book, but the mythical idea underlying is that for mortals, since their 'kind' cannot be changed for ever, this is strictly only a temporary reward; a healing and redress of suffering. They cannot abide for ever, and though they cannot return to mortal earth, they can and will 'die' - of free will, and leave the world.
and
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Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to heal him - if that could be done, before he died. He would have eventually to 'pass away': no mortal could, or can, abide for ever on earth, or within Time....
... Bilbo went too. No doubt as a completion of the plan due to Gandalf himself. Gandalf had a very great affection for Bilbo, from the hobbit's childhood onwards. His companionship was really necessary for Frodo's sake - it is difficult to imagine a hobbit, even one who had been through Frodo's experiences, being really happy even in an earthly paradise without a companion of his own kind, and Bilbo was the person that Frodo most loved.... But he also needed and deserved the favour on his own account. He bore still the mark of the Ring that needed to be finally erased...
Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to heal him - if that could be done, before he died. He would have eventually to 'pass away': no mortal could, or can, abide for ever on earth, or within Time....
... Bilbo went too. No doubt as a completion of the plan due to Gandalf himself. Gandalf had a very great affection for Bilbo, from the hobbit's childhood onwards. His companionship was really necessary for Frodo's sake - it is difficult to imagine a hobbit, even one who had been through Frodo's experiences, being really happy even in an earthly paradise without a companion of his own kind, and Bilbo was the person that Frodo most loved.... But he also needed and deserved the favour on his own account. He bore still the mark of the Ring that needed to be finally erased...
Hmm... I admit I haven't read about it in a while, but where does it say they only get to go to Tol Eress’a?
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...there always seem to be exceptions): and so certain 'mortals', who have played some great part in Elvish affairs, may pass with the Elves to Elvenhome.
Elvenhome is the part of Aman where the elves lives. Earendil may have been the first, but he was followed by three hobbits and a dwarf. ...there always seem to be exceptions): and so certain 'mortals', who have played some great part in Elvish affairs, may pass with the Elves to Elvenhome.
From Akallabeth, The Silmarillion....
Does this mean that any who got that far died almost as soon as reaching there or did they live out their lives amongst elves? Was it merely a myth told by those living on the shores of the sea or did other mortals travel the Straight Road before Frodo and company?
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And tales and rumours arose along the shores of the sea concerning mariners and men forlorn upon the water who, by some fate or grace or favour of the Valar, had entered in upon the Straight Way and seen the face of the world sink below them, and so had come to the lamplit quays of Avallone, or verily to the last beaches on the margin of Aman, and there had looked upon the White Mountain, dreadful and beautiful, before they died.
And tales and rumours arose along the shores of the sea concerning mariners and men forlorn upon the water who, by some fate or grace or favour of the Valar, had entered in upon the Straight Way and seen the face of the world sink below them, and so had come to the lamplit quays of Avallone, or verily to the last beaches on the margin of Aman, and there had looked upon the White Mountain, dreadful and beautiful, before they died.
Does this mean that any who got that far died almost as soon as reaching there or did they live out their lives amongst elves? Was it merely a myth told by those living on the shores of the sea or did other mortals travel the Straight Road before Frodo and company?
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Elvenhome is the part of Aman where the elves lives. Earendil may have been the first, but he was followed by three hobbits and a dwarf.
Elvenhome is the part of Aman where the elves lives. Earendil may have been the first, but he was followed by three hobbits and a dwarf.
Tol Eresse’ is the part of Elvenhome/Eldamar, where Elves live who still feel strongly attached to Middle-Earth. But as the Vanyar, Noldor and Teleri live on the continent, i believe that Tol Eresse’ is mostly inhabited by Sindar and descendants of Sindar. So for instance Legolamb wouldn't go further than Tol Eresse’ (a reason for Gimli to stop at Tol Eresse’ as well...).
As far as i know, it is mentioned nowhere that the hobbitses and dwarf were restricted to Tol Eresse’. Hey, if it were that way Gimli would never see Galadriel again as Galadriel would most likely go living in Tirion again with the rest of her family. But it is also possible that Galadriel would keep on living on Tol Eresse’, as Celeborn would also go living on Eresse’ amidst his kinsfolk later on.
But still, i can't really imagine the hobbitses wandering around in Tirion, Valmar and the Circle of Doom myself, in the midst of those shiny Elfies. It is perhaps more logical for the hobbitses to stop at Tol Eresse’ as well.
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Does this mean that any who got that far died almost as soon as reaching there or did they live out their lives amongst elves? Was it merely a myth told by those living on the shores of the sea or did other mortals travel the Straight Road before Frodo and company?
To me it are tales, probably originated by those two lads who were sent back by E’rendil. Every time a sailor's ship sunk and the sailor never returned to his happy family, it was said that "he made it to Valinor" instead of "the old fool drowned". Sounds more romantic. Does this mean that any who got that far died almost as soon as reaching there or did they live out their lives amongst elves? Was it merely a myth told by those living on the shores of the sea or did other mortals travel the Straight Road before Frodo and company?
The Valar would never allow mortals into Valinor without a proper reason. E’rendil was a good reason. Pizza delivery, also.
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The Valar would never allow mortals into Valinor without a proper reason. E’rendil was a good reason. Pizza delivery, also.
The Valar would never allow mortals into Valinor without a proper reason. E’rendil was a good reason. Pizza delivery, also.
Thanks Virumor! Your explanation is yet again thorough and excellent. And the pizza remark just did it. LOL
Just wondering, Celkeborn is a Sindar elf and did not enter the main lands of Valinor. Do you really think Galadriel would want to live separated by him? Will Galadriel waits for Celeborn at Tol Eresse’ (which would solve the Gimli conundrum as well
)I am pretty sure Galadriel would stick to her man. Or stick to her men, if we include Gimli. Size doesn't matter for Elfies.
I am quite sure the elves went to visit each other no matter if they lived on the island or the mainland. Unless they turn into everlasting couch potatoes. And I am sure the hobbits wanted to look around once the got there, and I am sure there were many elves all across Elvenhome who wanted to see the little ones who brought down the most evil maia there ever was.
That would be sweet wouldn't it?
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Hmm... I admit I haven't read about it in a while, but where does it say they only get to go to Tol Eress’a?
Hmm... I admit I haven't read about it in a while, but where does it say they only get to go to Tol Eress’a?
From the Silmarillion, Of the Voyage of Earendil and the War of Wrath.
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And when they came into the West the Elves of Beleriand dwelt upon Tol Eressea, the Lonely Isle, that looks both west and east; whence they might come even to Valinor. They were admitted again to the love of Manwe and the pardon of the Valar; and the Teleri forgave them their ancient grief, and the curse was laid to rest.
And when they came into the West the Elves of Beleriand dwelt upon Tol Eressea, the Lonely Isle, that looks both west and east; whence they might come even to Valinor. They were admitted again to the love of Manwe and the pardon of the Valar; and the Teleri forgave them their ancient grief, and the curse was laid to rest.
I think some people mistakenly read that paragraph to mean the Noldor only got to return to Tol Eressea, whereas they were actually allowed into the whole of Aman. The fact is, however, that many did remain on the island, settling and building the city of Avallone.
As far as the Sindar were concerned, I don't think their invitation was just limited to the island either (which until the return of the Noldor had been pretty much deserted). I think many of them would have been keen to meet their kin among the Teleri, who by then were living on the coast of Calacirya at their port city of Alqualonde.
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I have said nothing about it in this book, but the mythical idea underlying is that for mortals, since their 'kind' cannot be changed for ever, this is strictly only a temporary reward; a healing and redress of suffering. They cannot abide for ever, and though they cannot return to mortal earth, they can and will 'die' - of free will, and leave the world.
I have said nothing about it in this book, but the mythical idea underlying is that for mortals, since their 'kind' cannot be changed for ever, this is strictly only a temporary reward; a healing and redress of suffering. They cannot abide for ever, and though they cannot return to mortal earth, they can and will 'die' - of free will, and leave the world.
I think this is something which causes a lot of confusion too, as many people who read LotR get to believe that on entering the Undying Lands, Frodo, Sam, Bilbo and Gimli become immortal themselves. This is not the case as the Gift of Man is something which even the Valar cannot take away from them.
Elendil's father (what was his name again) sailed off for a similar reason as Earendil (who was immortal like elves instead of being mortal like men because he I think he was half elven, please correct me if that's wrong) so wasn't Earendil allowed to live in Aman but could never touch the ground of Middle-Earth again. He was at the final battle on a flying boat, which to my understanding was later sent to sail through the stars until (I never really could comprehend the Silmarillion) until some kind of destruction or judgement at the end of time. (wasn't there supposed to be something at the end of time that would cause all races to leave both Aman and Middle-Earth forever?) And the Silmarillion says that Elendil's father may have reached Aman and been allowed to stay there. I'M SO CONFUSED!
Elendil's father, Amandil of Andunie, did attempt to sail to the West but was never heard of again. This is similar to their ancestor, Tuor, the father of Earendil. In Tuor's case, he is said by some to have made it to Aman, and to even be counted among the Noldor whom he loved. Personally, however, I don't think this is possible. If it was Earendil's fate to reach the shores of Aman, it would seem kind of unnecessary if his father had got their a decade or two before him.
Personally, I believe the both of them became shipwrecked and drowned.
Personally, I believe the both of them became shipwrecked and drowned.
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Personally, I believe the both of them became shipwrecked and drowned.
Personally, I believe the both of them became shipwrecked and drowned.
But Tuor sailed away with his wife Idril. Why did she have to die? I think they both reached Aman and Tuor was counted amongst the Noldor as well.
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"In those days Tuor felt old age creep upon him, and ever a longing for the deeps of the Sea grew stronger in his heart. Therefore he built a great ship, and he named it E’rr’m’, which is Sea-Wing; and with Idril Celebrindal he set sail into the sunset and the West, and came no more into any tale or song. But in after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men."
Maybe they were only allowed to set foot on Eresse’ and not on Valinor itself to plead with the Valar.
Or maybe the Valar granted Tuor's wish to see "the deeps of the sea" and he, just as Val said, " ... became shipwrecked and drowned." On the other hand, Idril was saved by a propitious pod of passing dolphins (or a friendly flock, if you will) and transported high and dry to the land of Valinor.
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I think this is something which causes a lot of confusion too, as many people who read LotR get to believe that on entering the Undying Lands, Frodo, Sam, Bilbo and Gimli become immortal themselves. This is not the case as the Gift of Man is something which even the Valar cannot take away from them.
I think this is something which causes a lot of confusion too, as many people who read LotR get to believe that on entering the Undying Lands, Frodo, Sam, Bilbo and Gimli become immortal themselves. This is not the case as the Gift of Man is something which even the Valar cannot take away from them.
Do you think their lives may have been extended though?
A life in the blessed real, free from all evil, would probably make them live a litte longer than they would in ME simply because life is easier. But not much, mortals age the same way no matter where they are.
ya i kinda thought that too amarie, but in the back of my mind i was wondering if they may have had like 50 - 100 more years tacted on; similar to how the Numenoreans life span was increased.
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A life in the blessed realm, free from all evil, would probably make them live a litte longer than they would in ME simply because life is easier. But not much, mortals age the same way no matter where they are.
A life in the blessed realm, free from all evil, would probably make them live a litte longer than they would in ME simply because life is easier. But not much, mortals age the same way no matter where they are.
Although I did read somewhere, Morgoth's Ring I think, that the animals age slower in Valinor too. That is why everything seems to pass so quickly to the elves in Middle Earth. I would imagine their lives got extended a bit, particularly if they were ill, but not indefinetly.
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I would imagine their lives got extended a bit, particularly if they were ill, but not indefinetly.
And remember, Bilbo already felt stretched too thin, like too little butter over too much bread. I don't think that just being in Valinor would put that genie back in the bottle. I imagine there would come a time when each of the hobbits and Gimli too, would feel ready to call it a day and hang up their life, to give up the ghost like the faithful N’menorians before them.I would imagine their lives got extended a bit, particularly if they were ill, but not indefinetly.
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Although I did read somewhere, Morgoth's Ring I think, that the animals age slower in Valinor too.
Yes, but that is Valinorian animals, like Huan. He was quite a special doggie. Hard to say how old he would have become had he not been killed. Although I did read somewhere, Morgoth's Ring I think, that the animals age slower in Valinor too.
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I imagine there would come a time when each of the hobbits and Gimli too, would feel ready to call it a day and hang up their life, to give up the ghost like the faithful N’menorians before them.
I imagine there would come a time when each of the hobbits and Gimli too, would feel ready to call it a day and hang up their life, to give up the ghost like the faithful N’menorians before them.
Of course. Bilbo had already broken the record for oldest hobbit with his 131 years; so he would probably not live much longer back in Valinor.
Frodo was just 53 when he set sail into the west, so he had plenty of years before him. Gimli was 264 and as dwarfies are granted around 500 years at most, he also had plenty of time to stalk Galadriel.
As there were no diseases in the Undying Lands, each mortal who was granted access into Valinor could live his or her life to the fullest, without need of George Clooney to cure them. They could all live til they went into the Middle-Earth Guinness book of records under the label "Oldest dwarf/hobbit".
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They could all live til they went into the Middle-Earth Guinness book of records under the label "Oldest dwarf/hobbit".
They could all live til they went into the Middle-Earth Guinness book of records under the label "Oldest dwarf/hobbit".
Excepting of course they cheated by being out of Middle-earth; and until Gandalf or one of the other maiar were sent back to Middle-earth to put down the next spot of nastiness, no one on Middle-earth could have word of this record achievement in longevity. 
I don't remember Gimli going to the elven home. Where is that found in the books.
It's suggested in the Appendices.
Yeah, the very end of Appendix A to be precise:
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We have heard tell that Legolas took Gimli Gl’in's son with him because of their great friendship, greater than any that has been between Elf and Dwarf. If this is true, then it is strange indeed: that a Dwarf should be willing to leave Middle-earth for any love, or that the Eldar should receive him, or that the Lords of the West should permit it. But it is said that Gimli went also out of desire to see again the beauty of Galadriel; and it may be that she, being mighty among the Eldar, obtained this grace for him. More cannot be said of this matter.
We have heard tell that Legolas took Gimli Gl’in's son with him because of their great friendship, greater than any that has been between Elf and Dwarf. If this is true, then it is strange indeed: that a Dwarf should be willing to leave Middle-earth for any love, or that the Eldar should receive him, or that the Lords of the West should permit it. But it is said that Gimli went also out of desire to see again the beauty of Galadriel; and it may be that she, being mighty among the Eldar, obtained this grace for him. More cannot be said of this matter.
Going to Aman would prolong mortals' lives? Nay, the opposite! Tolkien says in Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed, that going to Aman (I don't mean Tol Eress’a, though that is where they ended up) would in fact significantly shorten a mortal's life, and he would age more rapidly than as if he were in Middle-earth, which is one reason why mortals were not to be allowed there! In any case, though, they only went to the Lonely Isle, though I imagine Gandalf returned to Valinor after Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam died (if indeed Sam reached Elvenhome before Frodo died, which would be extremely unlikely if Frodo et al had ventured past Eress’a to Aman!) 
There were mellyrn there, incidentally, larger in girth and height than those of N’menor or of Lothl’rien, and I think they would have enjoyed the rest of their lives peacefully.
There were mellyrn there, incidentally, larger in girth and height than those of N’menor or of Lothl’rien, and I think they would have enjoyed the rest of their lives peacefully.
Tyrhael, I do not have the HOME, so I cannot verify what you are saying about mortal lives being shortened in the Undying Lands. It would seem that the opposite would be true. Why bring Frodo and Bilbo and later Sam there if they were only to die more quickly? I wonder if the passage you are referring to is about the men of Numenor who wanted to take immortality by force? If Ar-Pharazon's fleet had actually reached their destination without the cataclysm, I am sure they would have been frustrated in their attempt at living forever. But since the whole idea of sailing from the Grey Havens is one of entering into immortal life as a reward for the part they played in the destruction of the Ring, I think the hobbits would have gone on living as the other Ring Bearers would have.
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But since the whole idea of sailing from the Grey Havens is one of entering into immortal life as a reward for the part they played in the destruction of the Ring, I think the hobbits would have gone on living as the other Ring Bearers would have
But since the whole idea of sailing from the Grey Havens is one of entering into immortal life as a reward for the part they played in the destruction of the Ring, I think the hobbits would have gone on living as the other Ring Bearers would have
They wouldn't become immortal.
I refer to Val's post from 28th November 2004 in this thread :
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I think this is something which causes a lot of confusion too, as many people who read LotR get to believe that on entering the Undying Lands, Frodo, Sam, Bilbo and Gimli become immortal themselves. This is not the case as the Gift of Man is something which even the Valar cannot take away from them.
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I have said nothing about it in this book, but the mythical idea underlying is that for mortals, since their 'kind' cannot be changed for ever, this is strictly only a temporary reward; a healing and redress of suffering. They cannot abide for ever, and though they cannot return to mortal earth, they can and will 'die' - of free will, and leave the world.
I have said nothing about it in this book, but the mythical idea underlying is that for mortals, since their 'kind' cannot be changed for ever, this is strictly only a temporary reward; a healing and redress of suffering. They cannot abide for ever, and though they cannot return to mortal earth, they can and will 'die' - of free will, and leave the world.
I think this is something which causes a lot of confusion too, as many people who read LotR get to believe that on entering the Undying Lands, Frodo, Sam, Bilbo and Gimli become immortal themselves. This is not the case as the Gift of Man is something which even the Valar cannot take away from them.
The other posts made on 28th November 2004 are more than worth reading too.
If this about the mortals going to Elvenhome to rest, to recuperate, to be healed if they could before they died, then Bilbo and Frodo (and Sam if he made it) and Gimli have all got the best of both worlds. They live out these great adventures in ME, do heroic things that their families & friends & offspring can be rightly proud of, PLUS, they get to go to Tol Eressea (or Aman, too, depending on your interpretation of Tolkien's words), hang out with elves, get whatever healing there is to be had for physical, spiritual, & emotional maladies left over from their struggle with evil, THEN they STILL get to give up the ghost and find whatever fate is waiting for them on the other side of Death -- hobbits probably going where people go (isn't there some reference to being a heavenly choir and spending time with Eru?), dwarves to their own fates (something to do with their creator, I think), and so they are not 'sundered' from their own kind forever even though they are, for all intents and purposes, "honorary elves". What a life. Or, I should say, What an Existence!
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PLUS, they get to go to Tol Eressea (or Aman, too, depending on your interpretation of Tolkien's words)
PLUS, they get to go to Tol Eressea (or Aman, too, depending on your interpretation of Tolkien's words)
Tol Eresse’ is in Aman. Aman is the continent consisting of Valinor, Eldamar, Avathar and Araman.
Eldamar is Elvenhome, both in Valinor and on Tol Eresse’; Valinor is the part of Aman behind the Pelori mountains, blessed by the Valar so that Melkor's evil would never be able to spoil it.
Avathar is the land south of Valinor, where Ungoliant had her dwelling, and Araman is the land to the north, bordering the icy waste of Helcarax’, which the Exiles crossed in their journey to Beleriand.
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dwarves to their own fates (something to do with their creator, I think)
dwarves to their own fates (something to do with their creator, I think)
It is said that there's a special section in the Halls of Mandos made for them, where they would remain until the Second Music of the Ainur, in which they apparently also have a part to play.
I think I read somewhere, but can't remember where, that Dwarves (or the Dwarf fathers, Durin etc.) were born again ie. reincarnated, from time to time.
I remembered reading that Dwarves did not go bald... forgot where I read it...couldn't find it and thought I might have imagined it... then stumbled on it again much later.
Anyway there's a bit on reincarnation in The Peoples of Middle-Earth which includes the interesting idea that the reappearance at long intervals of one of the Dwarf-fathers in the lines of their kings is not 'probably' rebirth, but the preservation of the body of a former King to which at intervals his spirit would return.
Anyway there's a bit on reincarnation in The Peoples of Middle-Earth which includes the interesting idea that the reappearance at long intervals of one of the Dwarf-fathers in the lines of their kings is not 'probably' rebirth, but the preservation of the body of a former King to which at intervals his spirit would return.
Yes Dwarves can be reincarnated on occasions. For instance all the Durin's were in fact the same Durin reincarnated from the very same Durin who was one of the seven Fathers of Aule. It is said that after he was slain by the Balrog, Durin's Bane, he will one day awaken yet again. This could be just Dwarven faith or, more liekly, an event that will happen in the Fourth Age sometime, at least judging from Gimli's song.
And it is also worth noting that although Dwarves believe they have Halls of Awaiting set apart from the Elves in Mandos and will one day re-awake to help Aule in the remaking of Arda Marred, the Elves believe that when Dwarves die they go back to the 'stuff of the Earth' of which they are made. Although I favour the former theory.
And it is also worth noting that although Dwarves believe they have Halls of Awaiting set apart from the Elves in Mandos and will one day re-awake to help Aule in the remaking of Arda Marred, the Elves believe that when Dwarves die they go back to the 'stuff of the Earth' of which they are made. Although I favour the former theory.
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I remembered reading that Dwarves did not go bald...
I remembered reading that Dwarves did not go bald...
Obviously, that was due to the fact that there were so few Dwarven women...
You mean we Dwarven dudes aren't pulling out our hair by the roots, because there aren't a plethora of lady Dwarves about causing us frustration?
