Hobbits almost certainly have the same fate after death as Men (being a variant of Men and clearly mortal) - to leave the Circles of the World, going to a fate that no one in Arda knows.

My personal theory is that they join Iluvatar in the Timeless Halls - a heaven, essentially - but I have no evidence for this.

Barrow-wights in Hobbit Heaven?

I could definitely see Hobbits having their own corner of paradise where they were free to carry on undisturbed, though it would be nice to think that in Paradise the Big and Little folk were able to get along better, like a perfect version of Bree.

Shire-Heaven would have a Middle-earthish Man-Heaven just outside. There could be a Breeish-Heaven for the companionable folk like yourself, Eldo. And Hellish Places too, which adventuresome hobbits could visit, decapitate a few goblins and wargs (risk their lives, you know - but not really), then come home to Safe old Shire-Heaven (popping into Bree on the way, if you are so disposed!) The Barrow-wights are more The Hobbitish (because of their association with Tom Bombabadil - and he surely belongs in Hobbit Heaven!) than LotRish - but they could be in both heavens.

Btw, I imagine LotR Heaven would be over Valinor way, wouldn't it? LotR Heaven wouldn't be for people like me. They'd take themselves far too seriously over there for my liking!

Absolutely! (We would have our own rooms though, wouldn't we?)

I wonder if we could fit both Itaryl and a [i:reesrwtr]friend[/i:reesrwtr] in as well? I only ever thought to ban Man from the Shire part of Hobbit Heaven, you now...

Lolz, I could imagine a Hobbit hell for Bilbo. In hell he'd have to eat off Cracked plates and drink out of chipped glasses.

I reckon hobbit-heaven would be strictly for little folk, no ents, no big folk and [b:vm96axcs][u:vm96axcs]no barrow-wights[/u:vm96axcs][/b:vm96axcs] for sure. Considering half the shire's caught up in their own ways, they don't like change do they, so the thought of having 'strange folk' in their paradise doesn't really add up for me .


P.S. I've missed a lot of discussion on this forum , with GCSE revision and cousework, hope i'll be able to start using the Internet a bit more soon, seems like you guys have talked about all there is to talk about now .

[b:vm96axcs]J Dwarf[/b:vm96axcs]

I have this sneaking feeling, Joseph, that if Hobbits didn't have 'adventures' to sneer at (and [i:270xm4de]go on[/i:270xm4de] when the urge took them), they would feel a but unfulfilled. And isn't being fulfilled what Heaven is all about?

Would Eru be there, do you think? He'd be a bit a stiff, wouldn't he, a bit aloof?

That's a fascinating idea, Odo; that Hobbits to enjoy their peace and quiet need to have something to compare their situation to (please correct me if I'm misinterpreting your post). I'm not entirely sure I agree, but it's definitely food for thought.

[quote="Odo Banks":3jvlemdd]I must admit I often think of a Christian-type Heaven, and I don't think I'd like it. Sinless people, and people who've been forgiven their Sins go there I hear, and so there'll be no drinking, or kissing. or noisy parties to attend - they are Sinful things, you see - but I happen to like those things. [/quote:3jvlemdd]

No drinking? Eh? When does the Bible ever say Christians cannot enjoy a good drink once in a while? After all, Jesus turned water into wine, He even has a little party in him . I think it's really only Southern Baptists who say "You cannot dance, you cannot drink", and such. And... I'm not quite sure if I quite recall God commanding there to be no kissing... it is an act of love, is it not? Why would God try to throw love away from Heaven? Something to think about. Also, one last thing, does God go against music? Loud parties? Huh! I don't think so. So if you look at all this, you can enjoy your drink, kiss your girl, and listen to some poppin' tunes while in Heaven... theoretically, of course. Doesn't sound too bad! (And all of this sin-less, too.)

[quote:3jvlemdd]
I imagine MY kind of Heaven to be a place a lot like our own, but not quite so serious or (fatally) dangerous. I'd like to do [i:3jvlemdd]activities [/i:3jvlemdd]when I wanted to, and would not mind some inadvertent or unasked for challenges arising - to keep me motivated. Any Hobbit Heaven would need to satisfy the hobbit soul inside this hobbit body. (And lots of seed cakes... I know....I know... sinful thoughts multiply.... )[/quote:3jvlemdd]


Well, in Revelation it says God created a New Heaven and a New Earth, and that New Jerusalem descends down to the New Earth. Why would God create a New Earth that no one inhabits? Seems quite unnecessary to me. My interpretation of it is that all the elect shall ascend to Heaven, and then they shall return to Earth, and, quite frankly, I interpreted it as we shall work, just as Adam did in the garden, when all was assumed "perfect". So if when things are perfect, apparently we are keeping ourselves busy... so perhaps Heaven shall be much more fufilling then you think, Odo Banks!

Even in Buddhism, the attainment of Nirvana doesn't mean the obliteration of reality, to dreamily float incorporeal among the ethereal Mists of Bliss. But rather, one must return to the world with Nirvana in one's Mind, Body and Spirit, and one must still go about one's daily activities of Chopping Wood and Carrying Water, to paraphrase the aphorism.

And Durin is right, for all it's dubious bits, the view of the Biblical Heaven as floating in clouds playing harps and singing odes to the Supreme Deity for eternity is not particularly Biblical (Dante or Milton may have something to do with that view). The New Heavens and Earth in Revelation seem to echo Celtic Pagan views of the Afterlife as a physical place. I've always preferred the Narnian afterlife, it seems to me a blend of Eastern, and Celtic thought on the Afterlife.

[quote:3mjql97h][b:3mjql97h]ME--from my article entitled Are The Chronicles of Narnia Christian Books?:[/b:3mjql97h]
And, finally, in the New Narnia after the destruction of Old Narnia, reality is revealed as multi-dimensional. As Lewis himself describes it ’’like layers of an onion’ or like a many faceted jewel that infinitely reflects itself. As the Narnians race ’further up and further in,’ they reach the Garden which contains yet another Narnia even further up and further in. This continues until they see laid out not just another Narnia but also beyond to our own world and another England further up and further in ’ whew ’ exhausting and exhilarating’and existentially Buddhist.[/quote:3mjql97h]

[quote:3mjql97h][b:3mjql97h]M Seaver:[/b:3mjql97h]

Irish Underworld:

One very interesting aspect of both of these civilizations is their elaborate and imaginative mythology. A very interesting part of this is their beliefs in an afterworld. The world of the Irish afterlife is known by many names. The exact location of this wonderful land is not known. The one thing agreed upon by most is that it lies to the west of Ireland. Some of the names associated with it are:
Tir na n-Og
The Land of the Young
Hy-Brasil
the Isle of the Blest
According to Delaney, the country of Brazil gets its name from this, for when the Spaniards arrived in the New World, they thought it was so marvelous they named it after the splendid afterworld of the Irish (85). Tir na n-Og, The Land of the Young, was a paradise. It "was as sweet as Elysium, as vivid as Nirvana, as desirable as Valhalla, as green and sunny as Eden" (Delaney 85). As Princess Niav states in a poem:
Beyond all dreams my land delights Fairer than any eyes have seen, All year round, the fruits hang bright, As the flowers bloom in the meadows green. Wild honey drips from the forest trees, We have endless stocks of meadow and wine, No illness comes from Across the seas, Nor death, nor pain, nor sad decline. No boredom comes to feast or chase, The music plays as the champions sport, The light and splendours all increase Each day in the Golden Land of Youth. (qtd. in Delaney 87)
Everything in this land was beautiful, bright and colorful. Delaney notes that it is called the Land of the Young because in this paradise, the aging process is reversed, so the youngest are the wisest. Time has no meaning in this place, and day changes to night and then back to day for one person whenever they desired it to do so. Everyone's soul desired to get to this wonderful place, which was more like a dream world than a land for the dead (85-95). The land was full of color, it was a lively land, bright and cheerful. It was as large or as small of a land as they wanted.[/quote:3mjql97h]

Sounds Hobbitish to me .

[b:3mjql97h]GB[/b:3mjql97h]

What!!??? No comments on my post Durin? I felt certain that being largely on the same page on this issue, that my post would have garnered a response of some sort. ***Booo Hooo Hooo***

[b:8jo8vxkd]GB[/b:8jo8vxkd]

Ah, [b:jewpltji]Odo Banks[/b:jewpltji], you have much to learn about myself! Stir me out o' me mountain dwelling with philosophical or religious words, and I'll come crashin' down with my HAMMER OF RIGHTEOUS DWARVEN FURY! ... Ahem.

Right then, [b:jewpltji]GB[/b:jewpltji], here we go.



[quote="Gandalfs Beard":jewpltji]

And Durin is right, for all it's [i:jewpltji]dubious[/i:jewpltji] bits,[/quote:jewpltji]

You [i:jewpltji]do[/i:jewpltji] like to get every sword put into Bible that you can, don't you?

[quote="Gandalfs Beard":jewpltji]
the view of the Biblical Heaven as floating in clouds playing harps and singing odes to the Supreme Deity for eternity is not particularly Biblical (Dante or Milton may have something to do with that view). The New Heavens and Earth in Revelation seem to echo Celtic Pagan views of the Afterlife as a physical place. I've always preferred the Narnian afterlife, it seems to me a blend of Eastern, and Celtic thought on the Afterlife.
[/quote:jewpltji]

I find it quite funny that people imagine Heaven as such things because it was portrayed this way in children's books, comics, and the like, one of which was supposed to be satirical, and yet, some people's model of heaven is modeled after a satire How logical!

[quote="Gandalfs Beard":jewpltji]

[quote:jewpltji][b:jewpltji]ME--from my article entitled Are The Chronicles of Narnia Christian Books?:[/b:jewpltji]
And, finally, in the New Narnia after the destruction of Old Narnia, reality is revealed as multi-dimensional. As Lewis himself describes it ’’like layers of an onion’ or like a many faceted jewel that infinitely reflects itself. As the Narnians race ’further up and further in,’ they reach the Garden which contains yet another Narnia even further up and further in. This continues until they see laid out not just another Narnia but also beyond to our own world and another England further up and further in ’ whew ’ exhausting and exhilarating’and existentially Buddhist.[/quote:jewpltji][/quote:jewpltji]

Multi-dimensional...? That all seems rather confusing and unnecessary, when you could have one dimension, which was perfect, and satisfied all needs (and perhaps wants), rather then having to create a multi-dimensional heaven.

[quote="Gandalfs Beard":jewpltji]
[quote:jewpltji][b:jewpltji]M Seaver:[/b:jewpltji]

Irish Underworld:

One very interesting aspect of both of these civilizations is their elaborate and imaginative mythology. A very interesting part of this is their beliefs in an afterworld. The world of the Irish afterlife is known by many names. The exact location of this wonderful land is not known. The one thing agreed upon by most is that it lies to the west of Ireland. Some of the names associated with it are:
Tir na n-Og
The Land of the Young
Hy-Brasil
the Isle of the Blest
According to Delaney, the country of Brazil gets its name from this, for when the Spaniards arrived in the New World, they thought it was so marvelous they named it after the splendid afterworld of the Irish (85). Tir na n-Og, The Land of the Young, was a paradise. It "was as sweet as Elysium, as vivid as Nirvana, as desirable as Valhalla, as green and sunny as Eden" (Delaney 85). As Princess Niav states in a poem:
Beyond all dreams my land delights Fairer than any eyes have seen, All year round, the fruits hang bright, As the flowers bloom in the meadows green. Wild honey drips from the forest trees, We have endless stocks of meadow and wine, No illness comes from Across the seas, Nor death, nor pain, nor sad decline. No boredom comes to feast or chase, The music plays as the champions sport, The light and splendours all increase Each day in the Golden Land of Youth. (qtd. in Delaney 87)
[/quote:jewpltji]
[/quote:jewpltji]
As Sir [b:jewpltji]Odo Banks[/b:jewpltji] was talking about, many people fear there will be boredom in Heaven, and that all of our wants may not be satisfied. However, we are indeed a sinful people, and "in heaven" we shall become blameless children of God once again, so who is to say our wants and needs shall not differ, and there shall be no such thing as boredom? Boredom is just a state of mind, right?

[quote:jewpltji]
Everything in this land was beautiful, bright and colorful. Delaney notes that it is called the Land of the Young because in this paradise, the aging process is reversed, so the youngest are the wisest. Time has no meaning in this place, and day changes to night and then back to day for one person whenever they desired it to do so. Everyone's soul desired to get to this wonderful place, which was more like a dream world than a land for the dead (85-95). The land was full of color, it was a lively land, bright and cheerful. It was as large or as small of a land as they wanted.[/quote:jewpltji]

*Sigh* This reminds me...

Ever since I listened to [url=http://www.playlist.com/searchbeta/results/67008017:jewpltji]Into The West[/url:jewpltji] composed by Howare Shore and sung by Annie Lennox, I always [i:jewpltji]dreamed[/i:jewpltji] and [i:jewpltji]wanted[/i:jewpltji] Heaven to be sort of like this.

I wish that Heaven was merely a place that all who were of good nature, all who were good, and wished no evil, were allowed within "The West". I wish that it was indeed like that, and that getting into a blessed, perfect place did not hinge on the fact that [u:jewpltji]you have to believe in God[/u:jewpltji].

It does not seem very fair, does it, that children in Africa who do not hear the Word of God die and burn in hell, does it? And yet, a Christian would respond with the arguement, "Well he was sinful in the first place, we all deserve condemnation, we all deserve damnation to hell forever". And yet, they do not, for they are being judged for Adam's sin, not their own, they were ignorant of the standard they were being held against, they do not know what they do. Now what do you say, O' Calvinist? "Ah, but you see, it glorifies God! It shows His righteousness, who are you to question God?" O' Calvinist, I am Mr. Durin, and I question God, and I do wonder how it glorifies Him to send His loved Children to hell, regarding of sin! But oh! For shame! He must not have loved them in the first place! For look...


[b:jewpltji]1 Corinthians 13:4-7[/b:jewpltji]
[quote:jewpltji]
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered,[b:jewpltji] it keeps no record of wrongs[/b:jewpltji]. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
[/quote:jewpltji]
The bolded is extremely important. If God loved everyone, then no one would be sent to Hell. So let's revert back to the children in Africa who have not heard the Word of God. God does not love these children, He never has, and He never will, for God [i:jewpltji]hates[/i:jewpltji] wickedness. For love is forever, and if God ever loved these children, then their sin would not be held accountable against them, just as the elects' sin is not held against them, because God loves the [i:jewpltji]elect[/i:jewpltji], but for some reason not the ignorant children in Africa. Food for thought.

So, let us re-cap. God created these children, only to hate them and condemn them to hell forever. Their life on earth shall be miserable and their after-life shall be even worse... O' Calvinist, how does this glorify God?

... Though I digress.

TL;DR Version: I wish the after-life was how Gandalf described it in Minas Tirith to Pippin.


[i:jewpltji]
GANDALF: End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path, one that we all must take. The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all turns to silver glass, and then you see it.
PIPPIN: What? Gandalf? See what?
GANDALF: White shores, and beyond, a far green country under a swift sunrise.
PIPPIN: Well, that isn't so bad.
GANDALF: No. No, it isn't.’[/i:jewpltji]


EDIT: I have no idea what else is on that site besides the song "Into The West", I scrolled down a bit and didn't realize it was a whole webpage .

Oh humble Odo, I am like that sort of Heaven of which Durin speaks, NONE shall be rejected for not "believing". We are all in the same Agnostic boat.

Thanks Durin, THAT'S the response I was looking for . And as I am sure you know yourself after your own "There and Back Again" with Christianity and on to the Agnostic Confucianism, my gentle barb was aimed at Literalism (often erroneous literalism) rather than the Bible itself which is a marvelous collection of contradictory confabulations. It is as beautifully Mythic as any of the worlds great religious texts.

It is funny how the majority of people "believers" or not, have this cloud floaty, harp playing view of Heaven. But it is not wholly irrational. It is the logical outcome of worshiping a Jealous Sky God that commands Supplication and Fealty.

In crafting a Multidimensional Heaven, Lewis was echoing Hindu/Buddhist thought to a T. It is not merely Heaven that is Multidimensional, but Reality itself (and thus spake the physicists also). We simply cannot see it in all it's multidimensional glory through the Maya (Illusion) of the solid world. Once the Veil of the World is pulled back (through enlightenment or death) the Shimmering Multiple Layers of Holographic Probabilities reveals itself as the root of Nature. The Gnostics are among the few Christians who also were aware of the Realm of Light as underpinning all of Creation. Durin quoted a scene from RotK in which Gandalf says much the same thing.

But Multidimensionality should not be seen as esoteric or as ethereally bound as the whole incorporeal cloudy floaty bliss thing. Oh no indeed. With more dimensions, the World becomes MORE Real than Real--Surreal if you will. with 2 eyes we see three dimensions, with the third eye activated we see beyond into an infinite sea of roiling dimension. All is brightly coloured and patterned, and (in the words of Tolkien himself) "Elf woven".

So, for an Agnostic, Heaven is not predicated on belief in a Supreme Deity. It [b:2eeq13bo][i:2eeq13bo]should be[/i:2eeq13bo][/b:2eeq13bo] a Universal Afterlife that none will miss, save those who themselves cannot face it. Just as the Dwarves in [i:2eeq13bo]The Last Battle[/i:2eeq13bo] who make it into New Narnia, but still see the inside of a stable. And all those who are truly lost to Darkness will find themselves in it's Shadow until they can grope their way back to redemption. Yet will those blinded by Light also find themselves in Shadow. It is naught as punishment but it is their state of soul and spirit that they are unable to move past, yet the road through is always there for them to find.

[b:2eeq13bo]GB[/b:2eeq13bo]

Well Said Zeonista!

[b:3pxjsql0]GB[/b:3pxjsql0]