Yes Grondy, you're absolutely right!
Thanks for correcting my mistake.
Yesterday I only thought about that formula for gravity: F=m.g
But this gives only the force working on the body and not the time it takes for the object to come down. When you analyse this formula a bit further, you indeed come to the conclusion that the time it takes the object to come down is independend of its weight.
Phew, I had to dig really deep in my memory for this one.
[Edited on 1/8/2002 by gnampie]
Thread: the balrogs wings
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I dont know about the rest of you, but I just couldn't resist when I saw that this thread had been re-activated.
Allyssa's rule no. 1 for remaining sane:
Okay, the balrog was not likely to be falling vertically face down, because if it was, it would not have been able to lash at Gandalf accurately with its whip. It would not have been able to see him. It is actually quite difficult to use a whip as a weapon.
I think it was likely falling feet first, so that it could look up and see where it was lashing.
Another point: It was able to lash its whip. I have seen demonstrations of this. It requires considerable room to crack a whip, therefore, there must have been a very substantial amount of room around the balrog as it fell. If there wasenough room to crack a whip, there should have been enough room to spread wings, and slow decent. There goes the "not enough room" argument.
No wings.
Allyssa's rule no. 1 for remaining sane:
Quote:
"Indulge a little silliness everyday."
"Indulge a little silliness everyday."
Okay, the balrog was not likely to be falling vertically face down, because if it was, it would not have been able to lash at Gandalf accurately with its whip. It would not have been able to see him. It is actually quite difficult to use a whip as a weapon.
I think it was likely falling feet first, so that it could look up and see where it was lashing.
Another point: It was able to lash its whip. I have seen demonstrations of this. It requires considerable room to crack a whip, therefore, there must have been a very substantial amount of room around the balrog as it fell. If there wasenough room to crack a whip, there should have been enough room to spread wings, and slow decent. There goes the "not enough room" argument.
No wings.
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Okay, the balrog was not likely to be falling vertically face down, because if it was, it would not have been able to lash at Gandalf accurately with its whip. It would not have been able to see him. It is actually quite difficult to use a whip as a weapon.
Okay, the balrog was not likely to be falling vertically face down, because if it was, it would not have been able to lash at Gandalf accurately with its whip. It would not have been able to see him. It is actually quite difficult to use a whip as a weapon.
You mean he actually did that on purpose!!
I always thought the whip accidentally pulled Gandalf over the edge.
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You mean he actually did that on purpose!!
I always thought the whip accidentally pulled Gandalf over the edge.
No, the Balrog pulled Gandalf after it with much malice afore thought. After all, it was an evil being. You mean he actually did that on purpose!!
I always thought the whip accidentally pulled Gandalf over the edge.
Quote:
With a terrible cry the Balrog fell forward, and its SHADOW plunged down and vanished. But even as it fell IT SWUNG ITS WHIP, and the thongs lashed and curled about the wizards knees, dragging him to the brink.
With a terrible cry the Balrog fell forward, and its SHADOW plunged down and vanished. But even as it fell IT SWUNG ITS WHIP, and the thongs lashed and curled about the wizards knees, dragging him to the brink.
So it was intentional, although I still don't see how that refutes the winged Balrog theory. Even if it spread it's most likely useless wings, it was probably so heavy that their negligible surface area couldn't slow its descent. WINGS!!!! WINGS I TELL YOU!!!
[Edited on 8/3/02 by ProgHead777]
If it had room to swing a whip, why didn't it have room to spread its wings? (if it had wings?)
No wings. Unless they were imaginary or composed of shadow only.
No wings. Unless they were imaginary or composed of shadow only.
No wings! I really think Tolkiens reference to wings was his way of describing the breadth of the beast, cause in his first reference he uses the word "like", the second reference would refer back to his first reference to the shadow, "like two vast wings"
Of course this is in my humble opinion.
Rednell
Of course this is in my humble opinion.
Rednell
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No wings. Unless they were imaginary or composed of shadow only.
No wings. Unless they were imaginary or composed of shadow only.
Yes, I believe they were composed of shadow, as was the rest of the Balrog, making it a WINGED shadow-stuff creature! And I still say the best argument for the Balrog having wings is because they make it look so COOL!!
(Keep in mind this is all in fun. I really couldn't care less!)
I decided to post this here rather than in the Ivy Bush Tavern.
Plastic Squirrel: In the title of your contest thread
Plastic Squirrel: In the title of your contest thread
Quote:
...and a Balrog in a Mallorn Tree!
How the heck did the crittur get in that tree if it didn't have wings? Or was it just the inanimate prize from a Happy Meal that one of the Elves or a Fourth Age Hobbit tossed into the tree as they were trying to dig their hamburger and fries from the box or bag? ...and a Balrog in a Mallorn Tree!
Oh very funny. It climbed up there like a cat or a squirrel might (they don't have wings either). Incidentally, on a re-watching of Bakshi's mighty fine Lotr movie the other night, I noticed that his very much winged Balrog, actually flies onto the bridge to fight Gandalf and then falls into the chasm, evidently forgetting he could fly. Laugh? I very nearly soiled myself!
The bridge fell out from under him so he was most likely falling feet first.
And this changes things how? Surely he could still spin round and come up flying?
While all of you merrily discuss whether the Balrog had wings or not, I'll go along with JRR Tolkien who actually told us that it did in the Two Towers....
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It stepped slowly onto the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall.
If Tolkien says it did, that's good enough for me.It stepped slowly onto the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall.
Val: Go back and read the two paragrapghs before the one you quoted; however, you will have better luck if you do so in the RotK--and yes I know you only typed "TT" because it is now in everybody's mind. Rednell quoted the two paragraphs in her post of 6/7/2002 at 15:57 in this thread.
For a difinitve, but long winded essay on the amibguity of the wingedness of the Balrog, read Plastic Squirrel's post of 18/1/2002 at 17:04 in the thread the belrog also under Fellowship of the Ring.
For a difinitve, but long winded essay on the amibguity of the wingedness of the Balrog, read Plastic Squirrel's post of 18/1/2002 at 17:04 in the thread the belrog also under Fellowship of the Ring.
Noticed this while watching TT: When Gandalf beats the Balrog, its fire goes out...then it really looks like the thing has wings...not that the movie is a particularly accurate indicator of the book, but I thought that was interesting...
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however, you will have better luck if you do so in the RotK--and yes I know you only typed "TT" because it is now in everybody's mind.
however, you will have better luck if you do so in the RotK--and yes I know you only typed "TT" because it is now in everybody's mind.
Grondy: Val may have more luck if he reads FOTR really....
*despairs of his fellow council members ability to remember books*
Whoops.. that's the problems of posting when consumed with Christmas spirit. Wrong book..doh!
I just came across the wings bit while perusing the chapter for another subject and posted it without going back over the previous arguements.
I for one still believe the Balrog had wings though. It was a creature of flame and shadow. If its wings were like vast shadows, so be it, its wings were made out of shadow... they were still wings.
Whether it had wings or not though, the Balrog could still fly. I remember reading somewhere (although I cannot remember which book) that it had flown down from Angmar at the end of the First Age.
I just came across the wings bit while perusing the chapter for another subject and posted it without going back over the previous arguements.
I for one still believe the Balrog had wings though. It was a creature of flame and shadow. If its wings were like vast shadows, so be it, its wings were made out of shadow... they were still wings.
Whether it had wings or not though, the Balrog could still fly. I remember reading somewhere (although I cannot remember which book) that it had flown down from Angmar at the end of the First Age.
I always thought Balrogs had wings, I don't know if they are flying wings or not though.
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Grondy: Val may have more luck if he reads FOTR really....
*despairs of his fellow council members ability to remember books*
Arrrggghhh! :elfembar: Let that be a lesson to you kiddies: Grondy: Val may have more luck if he reads FOTR really....
*despairs of his fellow council members ability to remember books*
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People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones
and likewise unto it People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones
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Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone.
Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone.
slap*I hope that didn't hurt much*
The Balrog do have wings but it seems like it can't use them just like pingwins!
The Balrog do have wings but it seems like it can't use them just like pingwins!
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Whether it had wings or not though, the Balrog could still fly. I remember reading somewhere (although I cannot remember which book) that it had flown down from Angmar at the end of the First Age.
Whether it had wings or not though, the Balrog could still fly. I remember reading somewhere (although I cannot remember which book) that it had flown down from Angmar at the end of the First Age.
Val I have no memory of this....where does this say? If they could fly why didn’t they do it when Melkor was about to get killed by Ungoliant? It says they ran to save their master. They slashed Ungoliants great black webs with their wips and swords of fire.....
This is one of those subjects that will go on and on and on forever!
Hey, maybe some Balrogs have wings and some don't, just like the Dragons.
Hey, maybe some Balrogs have wings and some don't, just like the Dragons.
Well all the dragons had wings except the father of the dragons....the worm of Morgoth Glaurung!
In TT, when they fall, you can clearly see the balrog wing bones and if you look closely you can see a thin see-through layer streached out between the "fingers" where the skin should be. Shadow wings! And shadows can't fly..
Maybe the wings are just for show, to attract female Balrogs so they can reproduce.
Maybe the wings are just for show, to attract female Balrogs so they can reproduce.
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Belrog sex?.......ewwww, now theres a unnerving image, imagine all the first degree burns!!
Belrog sex?.......ewwww, now theres a unnerving image, imagine all the first degree burns!!
No not 1rst degree....I would go for 3rd degree burns.....but then again they are both of fire!
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Well all the dragons had wings except the father of the dragons....the worm of Morgoth Glaurung!
I think all the early dragons were flightless. I cannot find a passage in the Sil or UT to confirm this but both Foster's complete guide to ME and Tyler's Complete Tolkien companion agree with it.Well all the dragons had wings except the father of the dragons....the worm of Morgoth Glaurung!
From Tyler's CTC
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The Great Worms were divided into three distinct breeds: the uruloki, fire-breathing beasts who were unable to fly (Glaurung was one of these): their evolved kindred who could both fly and breathe fire (Ancalagon and Smaug the Golden were of this type); and many lesser 'cold-drakes' whose power lay in speed and size alone.
The Great Worms were divided into three distinct breeds: the uruloki, fire-breathing beasts who were unable to fly (Glaurung was one of these): their evolved kindred who could both fly and breathe fire (Ancalagon and Smaug the Golden were of this type); and many lesser 'cold-drakes' whose power lay in speed and size alone.
From Foster's CGTME
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The first of the uruloki, the fire-drakes of the North, was Glaurung. They breathed fire but did not fly; they were the most common type of dragon in the First Age.
The first of the uruloki, the fire-drakes of the North, was Glaurung. They breathed fire but did not fly; they were the most common type of dragon in the First Age.
These quotes can be validated by comparing two passages from the Silmarillion, the first from the fall of Gondolin in FA 511 and the second from the Great Battle some years later.
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and with them came the dragons of the brood of Glaurung, and they had become now many and terrible.
and then from the Great Battle a few years later and with them came the dragons of the brood of Glaurung, and they had become now many and terrible.
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...and out of the pits of Angband there issued the winged dragons, that had not before been seen; and so sudden and ruinous was the onset of that dreadful fleet that the host of the Valar was driven back....
...and out of the pits of Angband there issued the winged dragons, that had not before been seen; and so sudden and ruinous was the onset of that dreadful fleet that the host of the Valar was driven back....
Hmmm....well I guess Val has proven me wrong there, Stonehelm.....I am sorry for that....
oh well always look at the bright side of life*whistling!*
oh well always look at the bright side of life*whistling!*