Wow!!!!

So are you studying LotR for your PhD, Sepdet?

(and can you shorten your signature to three lines please)

Bravo!

Here are some of my comments:

I Hobbits Discovered

Very true. In the book the hobbits pop out of nowhere with their swords (daggers) drawn. This is somewhat akin to the Movie Frodo and Sam (let's just say MF and MS).

II Introductions

Yes, MF&S are very tightlipped, partly because it is expected. Frodo and Sam shouldn't spill their guts before just anyone. Because of the way they were caught and Faramir's first words to them ('Bind their hands') MF&S immediately have misgivings about Faramir, in which case the audience does, as well (simply because Frodo and Sam are the heroes). The change in the sequence of Raid and Capture causes Faramir to get off on the wrong foot with the hobbits. Also, when they are just beginning to talk, Frodo doesn't mention Gandalf other than 'One we lost in Moria.' This took away a common bond between the man and hobbits.

III The Third Companion

Once again, spot on. I wonder what the Professor would say to PJ's change?

IV Boromir

This is the part I disagree with slightly. I think the words 'Dead? How?' are comparative to someone trying to hide something. But the way Elijah Wood says the words in the movie they are more devastated than anything. 'Dead?!? No, that can't be!' And, if I'm not mistaken, Sam has a moment of shellshock himself.

I'm banging my head against the wall trying to remember what Faramir's response is, but I can't. But the close up on Faramir's face does give you a sense of shellshock, and also gives the audience an uneasy feeling.

I think that M-Faramir isn't that different from Book Faramir. When someone is reading the book there isn't an actor standing there saying the lines, and everyone has a slightly different version (but similar generally) of how the characters are talking. In my mind B-Faramir was grieving the loss of his brother, but he knew that it shouldn't rule his life--his brother was dead, but he was not. This is very much like the Faramir in the movie. Frodo and Sam catch him at a moment when he let it slip a bit, which would be reasonable, because Frodo and Sam knew Boromir, and were there in his last hours.

V. Catching Gollum

What I noticed in the movie that was not in the book was the pity evoked for Gollum/Sm’agol. This change affected Faramir as much as anybody. If I may borrow your format, sepdet, let's zero in on Frodo and Gollum in the Forbidden Pool.

Book: Frodo comes upon Gollum, who is hissing and cursing the hobbits and men: "Dirty hobbits, nasty hobbits. Gone and left us...Throttle them, precious. Throttle them all, yes, if we gets the chances." When Sm’agol sees Frodo, he insists that he "Must finish fish." Because of this Frodo threatens him "I shall take Precious, and I shall say: make him swallow the bones and choke. Never taste fish again. Come, Precious is waiting." Gollum follows hesitantly. "Come or Precious will be angry," Frodo says. Frodo has a little pity for Gollum, but not enough to keep him from threatening 'poor Sm’agol' with his precious.

Movie: Frodo comes upon Gollum singing a cute, funny song: "Rock and pool is nice and cool, so juicy sweet! Our only wish to catch a fish, so juicy SWEET!" MF would never dream of threatening this pitiful creature, who has come to be almost a friend to him, with the only thing Gollum loves, so Frodo goads him into coming by calling him like a little puppy. Gollum is such a pitiful and trusting creature it seems cruel and worthy of disgust when Faramir's men catch him.

If one were to widen the scope, Frodo, Sam, and Gollum/Sm’agol changed. As with all of the characters, you see more into their inner conscious--especially Gollum, he talks to himself about it.

IV Learning about the Ring

What else is there to say?

V Deciding what to do about It

It is decidedly so. With the information provided to him in the movie, Faramir made the best choice he could.

VI To Osgiliath

Apart from trusting Frodo, he also needs more time to see what Frodo and Sam will do--essentially continuing his lab experiment. It can be given to Faramir's credit he did not take the ring from Frodo. He just said it would go to Gondor, letting Frodo keep it (a very wise choice).

One reason I approve of the Osgiliath scene being added to the movie is simply because it was AWESOME! Seriously though, this scene gives me hope that the Deprived Moviegoers (the ones who have not read the books) will understand Faramir more in the future.

One thing that could be debated upon is the interpretation of "Now we understand each other." A few reasonings I have found on other sites are:



and:



There are many different interpretations, and I think most of them are plausible (I did read somewhere that Faramir's evil twin took his place!)

The bit about Sam reminding Faramir of his brother is very moving...I shall contemplate this.


Conclusion: You have done a great justice to Faramir fans everywhere.

I believe that LotR PhD business was meant as a joke, Woofy_Elendil. Not that sepdet couldn't qua,ify for such an honor.

Anyway, I agree with what PJ said in the Ext. DVD that having Faramir blatantly say 'No' to the Ring and be gallant would destroy the image that the cast and crew worked so hard to support; that the Ring was treacherous and that it was extremely difficult so say No to it; you just can't have a main character ignore (for the most part, in one sense of the word anyway) the Ring. So while it doesn't follow the book, it was inevitable because of previous thematic and realistic ideas in PJ's interpretation of LotR.

I found Faramir (shutup Vir) to be a very powerful character in the book and I feel if PJ had shown the true Faramir it would have worked but they would have needed to follow through and show the true character which would include all the bits in ROTK that were missed out and a completely different Frodo/Faramir meeting. I think it was judged that Faramir could be cut down to a minor major character and therefore reduced to status of just a good man rather than a Man of Numenor.

Faramir was mugged!

Now why would anyone want to that? I am such a sweet, loveable, fluffy pussycat....

So? in the movies, he was a slow, clumzy Boromir-clone who started to cry because daddy hated him. Very inspiring.

Anyway, in the books Faramir is the perfect son-in-law and is more almost killed, even. Aragorn had to save him.

Denethor didn't really hate Faramir, he was just insane through using the Palantir too much.

Palantiri Anonymous?

What Happened to the Gallant Captain Faramir-thread?

Ahh so he is to blame for this as well.. I should have know..

phfutttttttt! go all my fantasies........

What the heck is going on?

yeah he is one of my favourite characters but was badly portrayed i the film

I think PJ's Faramir was a little more human than Tolkien's, but I'm not putting either of them down. PJ just developed Denathor's belittling of Faramir more fully, which filled Faramir's character out more fully.

PJ mentions on the DVD that he had to change Faramir because he didn't feel the "book" Faramir would work in the film. He explains that he had to create a danger for Frodo in the latter half of the film to keep up the suspense, and the threat of Faramir taking the ring was how he chose to do that. Also, he felt that if he kept Faramir true to the book, it would totally diminish the power of the ring if the first person they came across was so easily able to turn it away.

Unfortunately, even taking into account all of his nobility and courage, Faramir is not one of the lead characters in the book. As a "co-star" his book character shines, which is why he is so popular, but being a second-role character, his part was always in danger of being changed to suit the film. At least he made it into the film, unlike Prince Imrahil.

I am really disapointed in the changes made to Faramir in the film, he was so good in the book, one of my favorite characters. And yes I love David (because he's Australian) but I was not the Faramir I had grown to love.

Yes, and why is that? Because films are not multi-dimensional, they are restricted on time so they cut out anything that complicates. We end up with a one dimensional Faramir because PJ didn't think it necessary for the masses to see anything beyond The Ring and its destruction. We lose the beauty of Numenor, the history, the woven storylines that take us through LotR and we lose the beauty that is Faramir.

I can see PJ's reasoning though - people read books for intellectual stimulation but go to see films for entertainment so what is the point of a film which tries to reach that intellectual level?

I'd have to disagree with you there, Bugyfeanor. I think the greatest mistake that PJ made was Denethor. I know a lot of people hate him but GEEZ! Do you have to make him THAT disgusting! I mean what ws up with the whole eating scene where food was dribbling down his chin and juice was....EEEWWW! It's too gross to even think about! Not only that but B-Denethor is only slightly insane whereas M-Denethor is totally off his rocker! I think that PJ went over the edge with Denthor. He is a character that should be pitied, not made fun of and hated.
I suppose that's another thread though, huh? Oh well. Carry on with your disscussions!

To me, PJ seems to have glorified the Rohirrim at the expense of Gondor. Twice he compares contempories, and twice Gondor loses out. Since this is a Faramir thread, I'll mention him first, though most of the points have already been made here.

In the book both Faramir and Eomer are heroic, noble figures. Both are unloved by their respective father/uncle/kings, and both are fighting their own battles to save their respective lands. In the film Eomer is able to show the spirit of Rohan is still alive until Theoden is back on the scene. Faramir should be able to do the same for Gondor, and although the ambush scene is one of my favourites in the movie, he just doesn't do it. One of the things that always impresses with the book Faramir is that he is a quite man who is able to see into the hearts of men. I'm not sure if PJ was trying to portray this in the film because it is harder to portray an emotion visually then it is to mention it in words, but if he did David Wenham just didn't pull it off. Wenham was seen several times, in fact most of the film, looking into space as though trying to act this part, but in my opinion came across as just looking depressed and undecisive. Faramir had a lot of love in his heart. I think if Wenham had just smiled a little more his character would have "felt" a lot better.

The other comparison PJ uses is Theoden and Denethor, which is forgivable because Tolkien did the same. In the book both have been poisoned by the lies of either Saruman or Sauron, both recieve Hobbits as squires and both have lost their favourite son. Their is redemption for Theoden, but none for Denethor, who in the book falls into madness. My point here, however, is that Tolkien at least explained why Denethor had sunk into this state. Unless he explains it better in the extended version, PJ gives us no explaination why Denethor is like this. I agree with the eating scene too. It just seemed like an easy way of showing the viewer that this man was mad.

In the book Gondor was a noble place. For those viewing the film, however, I'm sure the interpretation will be that Rohan not only saved the day (or would have if Aragorn's green slime had not turned up), but did all of the work too. What do we see of the Gondorians in battle? Faramir failing to hold Osgiliath, Faramir leading a futile charge in which we do not see a single Orc killed, and then men on the walls of Minas Tirith being plucked to their deaths by the Nazgul. We see Gondorians either being slain or fleeing, while outside the Rohirrim are charging through swaithes of the enemy. It is this that annoys me the most. Where were the brave sallies of Imrahil's knights who rescued Faramir, and then united with Eomer on the field? To me, we just see the glorification of Rohan at the expense of Gondor.

While PJ did a good job (In my opinion) as to what to omit, he did a poor job with his insertions. The only one that worked out fairly well, the explicit Arwen/Aragorn romance, works because it is Tolkien - see Appendix A. Almost all the other insertions were pretty silly. While the most painful and ridiculous was Frodo telling Sam to go home (the one scene in the three movies I can't bear to watch), the character assasination of Faramir was probably an even greater artistic blunder. A tense battle of wits, culminating in a shared recognition of virtue, would have been the perfect counter point to the huffing and puffing of the battle scenes of Helm's Deep. Also, the dialogue between Faramir and Frodo was possibly the best investigation of the metaphysics of the ring in the whole LOTR, and could have helped non readers to understand the point of the whole tale. Finally, a true representation of Faramir would have increased the interest in the romance between him and Eowyn, so that it wouldn't have ended up on the cutting room floor. Of course, I completely agree wtih all of you that point out how much it impoverishes the presentation of Gondor as well.

I've come to the conclusion that PT really needs a Faramir Fan Club

And speaking of the movies, I'll have my say, (as usual) as someone who's seen the movies first and then read the books. Speaking of the Frodo telling Sam to go home thing, when I watched the movie, I didn't find anything odd with that, instead I thought that it DID fit in nicely in the movies. But, I must say that Faramir's character has really been "spoiled" in the movies. You just don't understand what a great character he is, untill you've read the books. But, after watching the movies again, after reading the books, I think they do try to make up for the "loss". At the end of TTT, when Faramir lets Frodo go, someone says to him that his life will be forfeit if he lets them go. Faramir replies "Then it is forfeit". But I must say, with the whole background of taking Frodo and Sam to Osgilliath (? Give me a break!! That was too much!), that one little dialogue doesn't really make much difference. In fact, the whole "Forbidden Pool" thing, gave me the impression that Faramir wasn't a good fellow! ( :$ ) Hahahaha. Watching the movies, I didn't like Elrond. The stuff he does with "Arwen go" and the way he refuses to keep the ring in Rivendell, made me think he was a little evil too!! Gladly, I've read the books now!!!

never watched Priscilla queen of the desert Lord_aragorn86? Regarding the Faramir fanclub. He doens't need any Gondor needs no fanclub Gondor need swords and bows to protect itself!

Guys, some of you either have a bad memory or haven't read the books. Faramir never even looked at the Ring, he refused to do so!!! And he is wonderful in the books. The movie just shows a suffering boy, nothing like a man of Intelligence, Understanding, and Reason. Did PJ want to show just another medieval-type warrior? In that case, he succeeded. But his Faramir has lost my respect.

The reason PJ changed Faramir is because PJ showed that every single character in the Ring had so much trouble with defying the Ring, including Aragorn (remember that ridiculous scene in which Aragorn sends Frodo away), whilst Faramir in the books is not at all interested in the Ring.

I don't have much trouble with Faramir anymore. A totally changed character makes more sense in a totally changed storyline. It makes much more sense than a partially changed character in a totally changed storyline.

Movie Faramir just appears like a regular Gondoran man, who's more concerned with trying to survive the battle than nurturing two hobbits.

Actually Weaving has the same perspective in LOTR as in Priscilla : he wears a dress in both movies.

Sometimes i think PJ changed Faramir on purpose to see women all over the world cry out their outrage. Strange that men don't react at all after seeing what PJ did to Arwen.....