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Lord of All wrote: The dialog in the film says that Pippin in the film will see White shores and Beyond after he dies. Nothing technical it just implicates what Tolkien himself has left us to conclude.
Lord of All wrote: The dialog in the film says that Pippin in the film will see White shores and Beyond after he dies. Nothing technical it just implicates what Tolkien himself has left us to conclude.
In my opinion that just ignores the message (of this manipulation) that Carl Hostetter raises. The technical aspect is trying to claim that film-Gandalf is not really comforting Pippin about death in general, but telling him about something you claim he will 'see' -- technically after he dies but before he reaches the ultimate 'destination' of mortals (his ultimate destination is what death will really hold for him).
Which (if your take is true) comforts Pippin about death because he will see something on the way?
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Your quotes prove my own point.
Your quotes prove my own point.
Well it proves that Elves go to Mandos or can refuse the summons. Nothing about any related assumptions though.
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Elves are summoned to Mandos when they die. If they can refuse the summons and remain in Middle-earth this would imply that they do not simply automatically appear in Mandos.
Elves are summoned to Mandos when they die. If they can refuse the summons and remain in Middle-earth this would imply that they do not simply automatically appear in Mandos.
But that's not the only consideration in any case.
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It implies that they can accept the summons and go to Mandos. It doesn't imply that they accpet the summons and suddenly appear there.
It implies that they can accept the summons and go to Mandos. It doesn't imply that they accpet the summons and suddenly appear there.
Hold on now, you are the one who brought up this text from Morgoth's Ring to bolster your argument.
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Otherwise if they refused the summons do you think Mandos would just say 'Ok I will send you back then'?
Otherwise if they refused the summons do you think Mandos would just say 'Ok I will send you back then'?
But that seems based on the assumption that those Elven fear who refuse are in Mandos instead of Middle-earth.
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All we have actual proof for is that Elves can choose to go to Mandos. We do not have any proof that they arrive there in some supernatural way. Therefore we MUST assume they get there the good ole' fasion way - by travelling there. Got proof that they arrive there in some other more unusual way then show it.
All we have actual proof for is that Elves can choose to go to Mandos. We do not have any proof that they arrive there in some supernatural way. Therefore we MUST assume they get there the good ole' fasion way - by travelling there. Got proof that they arrive there in some other more unusual way then show it.
You're making an assumption that is not specifically backed by the text you raise, then basically asking for someone else to disprove your idea.
And Pippin is not an Elf of course.
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So if we have established that much (and I **** [Mind your language! Virumor] well hope so by now) then we can also assume the most likely outcome is that the spirits of the Men arrive there in the same way. Therefore proving my, and Gandalf's point.
So if we have established that much (and I **** [Mind your language! Virumor] well hope so by now) then we can also assume the most likely outcome is that the spirits of the Men arrive there in the same way. Therefore proving my, and Gandalf's point.
We have established that you disagree with Carl Hostetter, Virumor, and me.
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