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Thread: Pippin in Valinor

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Continued from the Silmarillion forum, from the thread 'How many half-elves'...

Lord of All wrote: The dialog in the film says that Pippin in the film will see White shores and Beyond after he dies. Nothing technical it just implicates what Tolkien himself has left us to conclude.

In my opinion that just ignores the message (of this manipulation) that Carl Hostetter raises. The technical aspect is trying to claim that film-Gandalf is not really comforting Pippin about death in general, but telling him about something you claim he will 'see' -- technically after he dies but before he reaches the ultimate 'destination' of mortals (his ultimate destination is what death will really hold for him).

Which (if your take is true) comforts Pippin about death because he will see something on the way?

Your quotes prove my own point.

Well it proves that Elves go to Mandos or can refuse the summons. Nothing about any related assumptions though.

Elves are summoned to Mandos when they die. If they can refuse the summons and remain in Middle-earth this would imply that they do not simply automatically appear in Mandos.

But that's not the only consideration in any case.

It implies that they can accept the summons and go to Mandos. It doesn't imply that they accpet the summons and suddenly appear there.

Hold on now, you are the one who brought up this text from Morgoth's Ring to bolster your argument.

Otherwise if they refused the summons do you think Mandos would just say 'Ok I will send you back then'?

But that seems based on the assumption that those Elven fear who refuse are in Mandos instead of Middle-earth.

All we have actual proof for is that Elves can choose to go to Mandos. We do not have any proof that they arrive there in some supernatural way. Therefore we MUST assume they get there the good ole' fasion way - by travelling there. Got proof that they arrive there in some other more unusual way then show it.

You're making an assumption that is not specifically backed by the text you raise, then basically asking for someone else to disprove your idea.

And Pippin is not an Elf of course.

So if we have established that much (and I **** [Mind your language! Virumor] well hope so by now) then we can also assume the most likely outcome is that the spirits of the Men arrive there in the same way. Therefore proving my, and Gandalf's point.

We have established that you disagree with Carl Hostetter, Virumor, and me.

Smile Smilie
We have established that you disagree with Carl Hostetter, Virumor, and me.

Finally! And if you really speak so highly of Hostetter... CUT Moderator Smilie No public advertising of other forums, please. Try sending a PM. Moderator Smilie
Wow, so much heated debate on such a little, albeit deeply moving, scene.

The scene made perfect sense to me. Gandalf was telling Pippin about what Valinor would look like as you approach it. He wasn't saying that Pippin would go there. Rather, he was simply relating what he saw, or what he knows he will see.
According to the other thread, this is what Gandalf said to Pippin in that particular movie scene:
Pippin: I didn't think it would end this way.
Gandalf: End? No the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path. One which we all must take. The grey rain curtain of this world folds back and all turns to silver glass... (Then you see it...
Pippin: See what gandalf?
Gandalf: White shores and beyond. A far green country with a swift sunrise.
Pippin: Well thats not so bad.
Gandalf: No it isn't...

The entire point was that Gandalf's wording in the underlined sentence seems to imply that he means that everyone sees Valinor upon dying, whilst the fate of Men was unknown to Gandalf.

Even if the writers did not mean this, it is confusing at best and make movie watchers who've never read the books, give the wrong idea about what Tolkien intended with the afterlife of Men.

Note that the "silver glass" line is a line taken from the books that is never said by Gandalf, but appears in the chapter "In the House of Tom Bombadil". My opinion here is that the writers had the wrong idea about the afterlife for Men within Tolkien's universe.
IMHO the films are non-canon and shouldn't be used to verify Tolkien's reasoning about his created mythology. They are just the screenwriters' interpetation of the story and are in a sense apocryphal.

The film's Gandalf was merely trying to paint for Pippin a comfortable picture of the afterlife towards calming Pippin's fear of the soon aproaching death, which at that time was the highly probable out come that they were facing. He wasn't saying 'This is how it is going to be kid,' because he couldn't have known unles of course he actually died as a human at the top of Durin's Stair and that is what he saw before he was brought back to life as Gandalf the White. And even then that isn't to say mere humans would make that same journey, Though Niggle did some-what.
I'd like to think that Pippen would be happy wherever he went just as long as he had a bottle of old Winyards and a healthy supply of longbottom leaf to keep him company. and Merry of course.