Thread: Gandalf's staff
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When did he get it back?
I'm sure I know the answer...just can't think of it right now...
If we take them in the original states the idear that a Man (which the Witchking is becuase Elves and Dwarves cannot turn into wraiths) could break some powerful item of an Ainur is absurd. BUT take these into consideration:
Gandalf was confined to phisical form in the world Without and could not extend his powers to there full potential.
The Witchking was a great man in his time. If Glorfindel could defeat a Balrog which are Maiar then its not hard to believe that a great man could, at least, stand a chance of doing the same.
The Witchking had huge amounts of power given to his original supply by Sauron (who was undoubtedly more powerful than Gandalf in his original state before or after he made the Ring) making him far more dangerous. For example when Gandalf held off the Wraiths at weathertop the Witchking was clearly a defeatable foe. But by the end of the War of the Ring he had grown even greater. He also seems to grow greater as his master grows in power also.
As I say its doubtful the WK could defeat Gandalf but its not a ludicrous concept.
It says clearly that this angelic being came with his full powers shrouded, he was not to use them except in extreme emergency situations, but he could use them. So I don't believe that the Witchking could do that whatsoever.
So I don't believe that the Witchking could do that whatsoever.
Of course the fiend couldn't do that to Gandalf the White. The idea alone is laughable.
He wouldn't even be able to break Gandalf the Grey's staff; note that Gandalf the Grey fought off 5 Nazg’l alone on Weathertop and defeated a Balrog.
The Nazg’l's only power is fear; (s)he who does not fear them, cannot be defeated by them - granted, though, if this person possesses the necessary combat prowess. Did Gandalf fear the Nazg’l? I think not.
Extrapolating from this, Aragorn would also have been able to defeat the Witch-King of Angmar with And’ril.
On a less serious note, the Witch-King was beaten by a GIRL, for Pete's sake... so he's clearly a weenie who would stand no chance whatsoever against the Wizard of wizards. So why the argument?
On a less serious note, the Witch-King was beaten by a GIRL, for Pete's sake... so he's clearly a weenie who would stand no chance whatsoever against the Wizard of wizards. So why the argument?
Because, it is more civilized than going to a football game and acting like a hooligan; though there are some (your's truly not in their number) who might consider that to be more fun.
But here's another question...in the original version of the movie, does Gandalf just all of a sudden not have his staff? I really don't remember...
Was Saurman more powerful than the Wraiths?
And don't forget: Gandalf was also staff-less when Gwaihir rescued him from the Tower of Orthanc; and again when he rescued him from Durin's Tower after the battle with the Balrog. So from whence came all those replacements? Huh, tell me that; or tell me once again I've got in my facts all wrong.
I assume your post is either one of those above or you never actually posted it. You wouldn't be the first to loose a post, but you would be the first to blame the Council for it.
I suppose we will never know. I would have thought there would be some kind of log entries on all deleted messages in which the CM could check afterwards though...
I guess you'll just have to post it one more time. It's not fun to have to rewrite a post, but I doubt it will vanish twice.
So from whence came all those replacements? Huh, tell me that; or tell me once again I've got in my facts all wrong.
Well, 'whence' = from where, hence 'from whence' is a tautology... your English teacher must be rolling in his grave!
Now that is strange... Maybe the server had a hick-up? I believe we did loose a handfull of posts some time ago, if I remember correctly.
We did even lose a couple of entire accounts! Sweet, sweet memories...
Anyway All my post was stating was that assumting that Gandalf's staff breaking is ludicrous on the sole facts that he is a Maiar whilst the WK is a man is very slack.
Gandalf was bound from using his full power,
Glorfindel slayed a Balarog just with his helm and no magical abilities,
Gandalf died fighting the balrog,
The WK was excessively more powerful at the siege of Pellenor than at Weathertop becuase as Sauron's dominion grew more great so did the WK's power,
The WK has large amounts of power given to him by Sauron.
All these facts should lead you to deduce that it was still unlikely that the WK could defeat Gandalf but not impossible and certainly not 'laughable'. The WK was after all the most powerful being in Arda after Sauron and the Istari.
What you are saying is "The Witch-King can possibly beat Gandalf, because Gandalf was defeated by a Balrog and Glorfindel killed a Balrog", as if there's a transitive property here : Glorfindel defeats a Balrog (also note that Ecthelion killed Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs, with his helmet), Gandalf beats a Balrog (like all Balrogs are equal), hence Glorfindel = Gandalf?
Nothing can be extrapolated from the actions of High Elves & Balrogs on the Witch-King of Angmar, since they are *not* even of the same race. Nothing is known of the relation between the Witch-King and Balrogs or High Elves, except that for instance Glorfindel and others did not fear Nazg’l.
What c’n be extrapolated is, that since Gandalf the Grey had already subdued five Nazg’l on Weathertop, and had became more powerful after his rebirth as Gandalf the White (or rather, his form was less shrouded than his previous form; he was perhaps able to use his full power), the Witch-King would again be subdued, especially when taking into account that it took merely a stab from a Hobbit and a thrust from a Lady to finish off the fiend.
"All the power from Sauron" that according to you was turned to the Witch-King does not matter at all *if* we follow your "Balrog-Glorfindel-Gandalf" conjecture - since Sauron had been defeated numerous times in the First and Second Age, by L’thien, H’an and Elendil + Gil-galad, his power was negligible.
And again, the only power of the Nazg’l was fear; fear them not, and you kill them by sticking a N’menoran blade in their unseen gut.
Hence, indeed, the idea of the Witch-King even remotely posing more than a slight nuisance to Gandalf the White/the Grey, is derisory at best.
So when he comes back from death with a new staff, that makes sense because he himself broke the old one. But this thing about the new staff does not make sense.
I'm glad I didn't see the Extended Edition!
Someone said that Gandalf killed a Balrog so that must make him some almighty being or something. What I was stating was that Glorfindel slayed a Balrog and he was not an angelic being, just a firstborn, though mighty amoung them. Now as we know the WK was probabaly one of the 'great Lords of Numenor' which also would make him mighty (perehaps not quite as much as Glorfindel but still). Therefore if the WK could stand a chance of fighting a Balrog then he could also stand a chance of facing Gandalf becuase Gandalf the Grey and the Balrog were pretty equal.
’Yet now under the Lord of Barad-d’r the most fell of all his captains is already master of your outer walls,’ said Gandalf. ’King of Angmar long ago, Sorcerer, Ringwraith, Lord of the Nazg’l, a spear of terror in the hand of Sauron, shadow of despair.’
’Then, Mithrandir, you had a foe to match you,’ said Denethor.
Clearly Gandalf rates the WK very high in power and obviously Denethor does to. And does this quote seem to indicate that Gandalf thought of the WK as 'laughable'??
And as I have already explained the WK and the other wraiths on weathertop did not exactly need to kill Gandalf - they were after the Ring - not him.
At the battle of Pellenor the Witchking was prepared and had grown great enough to face Gandalf:
"The Nazg’l screeched and swept away, for their Captain was not yet come to challenge the white fire of his foe."
As we see here the WK was NOT YET ready to race his foe. His power was growing all the time. By the time the battle was begun he stood a chance (all be it very small) of fighting Gandalf.
And as for your implications that Sauron was less powerful than Gandalf becuase he had been thwarted by various people over the ages is flawed by this quote:
"To the defeat of Sauron would he not then send some lesser (but mighty) spirit of the angelic people, one co’val and equal, doubtless, with Sauron in their beginnings, but not more? Ol’rin was his name. But of Ol’rin we shall never know more than he revealed in Gandalf." UT
And this quote:
"'Dangerous!' cried Gandalf. 'And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord." LOTR
Gandalf did not died fighting the Balrog. He fell in the deeps of Khazad-doom. He was not killed, but sent beyond time and knowledge. Perhaps he was on some council with the Valar, to be prepared for his further actions. He was "sent back", not reanimated or any way revived.
The battle on Gondor's terrace did made Gandalf look weak. This I would probably never forgive Peter Jackson. Istar's stuff broken by undead (unliving)?!
About the Dark Lord and his transferable powers- I do not believe Sauron would share power. He grows in power by consuming others skills (physically or by getting to know others crafts and knowledge, and becoming masterful). By my opinion the crafts of the Which King are formidable for a mortal and he could even kill Gandalf (e.g. by slaying him), but not by any "magic".
Checking reply... My last replay was posted, but the system did not marked the thread as "refreshed".
Gandalf really 'died', and was changed: for that seems to me the only real cheating, to represent anything that can be called 'death' as making no difference. 'I am G. the White, who has returned from death'. Probably he should rather have said to Wormtongue: 'I have not passed through death (not 'fire and flood') to bandy crooked words with a serving-man'. And so on. I might say much more, but it would only be in (perhaps tedious) elucidation of the 'mythological' ideas in my mind; it would not, I fear, get rid of the fact that the return of G. is as presented in this book a 'defect', and one I was aware of, and probably did not work hard enough to mend. But G. is not, of course, a human being (Man or Hobbit). There are naturally no precise modern terms to say what he was. I wd. venture to say that he was an incarnate 'angel'’ strictly an ἄγγελος: that is, with the other Istari, wizards, 'those who know', an emissary from the Lords of the West, sent to Middle-earth, as the great crisis of Sauron loomed on the horizon. By 'incarnate' I mean they were embodied in physical bodies capable of pain, and weariness, and of afflicting the spirit with physical fear, and of being 'killed', though supported by the angelic spirit they might endure long, and only show slowly the wearing of care and labour.
from letter 156 to Robert Murray (4 November 1954)
The way I see it, Gandalf died of his wounds suffered in the long fight with the Balrog (even though his angelic spirit let his body endure long enough to defeat the Balrog), passed to Il’vatar and was sent back by the One himself. He could not have passed to the Valar as he passed 'beyond Time and Space'.
Yet it is said that in the ending of the task for which he came he suffered greatly, and was slain, and being sent back from death for a brief while was clothed then in white, and became a radiant flame (yet veiled still save in great need). And when all was over and the Shadow of Sauron was removed, he departed for ever over the Sea.
But G. would have been given a run for his money too.
I disagree. The WK got beaten by a woman and a little Hobbit, after all. He was nothing but a bag of wind (literally, even).
If I may extrapolate myself we could tend to think that Gandalf might have had the upperhand if we consider that it was because of Sauron's interference (through the palantir of Denethor) that Gandalf had to abandon the Gate. If Faramir was not to be burned by his mad father we could have witnessed the epic battle between the Witch and the Wizard despite the arrival of the Rohirrim.
I would have to reread all the books three more times before I could add anything remotely intelligent.
I am in awe of all of you, with your high words and your attention to detail and accumulated knowledge. It is wonderful to read your posts.
The scene with the staff-breaking surprised me when I saw it, too. I flipped through the LOTR in search of a passage that describes this happening, and of course I found nothing. Typical, typical of Hollywood... I despise it when people look at that scene laughingly and say Gandalf is just a weakened old man after all, because it is NOT true. And while a quote above from Lord-Of All shows that Gandalf considers himself to be of equal, or perhaps slightly inferior, power than Sauron, there is nothing in Tolkien's writings that suggest an equality between the Witch King and Sauron, even if Sauron had poured some powers into the WK. T
he Witch King may have been Sauron's most valuable servant after Saruman, but he was just a servant nevertheless. Actually, I would not even call him a servant. He's more like a slave, bound to Sauron by the sheer malice of his Rings, and stuck in the Shadowlands. He had little free will of his own, tethered as he was to the will of Sauron. Could Gandalf the White, newly resurructed with the power of "what Saruman should have been," be defeated by something as bully-like as the Witch King? I don't think so.
Furthermore, I think Gandalf took the Witch King seriously because he was wise enough not to be arrogant, and not because he was weak or anything.
It is clear to me that Gandalf was in Middle-Earth to do the bidding of The ONe, of course , but never to strong arm any situation. He more or less walked along side if you will and only when a situation was past the ability or hope of the players in the drama did he take over and use his powers. That Witch King was a mere former man who allowed greed and avarice to corrupt him and then became the slave of Sauron. I believe Sauron would give him enough power to terrify the men and hobbits necessary, but never enough power to do anything against Sauron himself. He was there fore even on that score well below Gandalf. And knowing who Gandalf was and where he was sent from it is a no brainer that his staff would not have been broken by that loser.
As a side note, there are a few scenes besides the Grey Havens in which Gandalf has his staff after the WK broke it.
The m’mak is synonymous with oliphaunt; the gnu with wildebeest.
Alright, I know that was a sarcastic, rhetorical question, but I couldn't pass it up.
"Well, it could've been carried by an Eagle"
Or perhaps he got it from the Gap of Rohan?
Seriously though, I didn't get how that was possible. Gandalf the White had the power to break Saruman's staff, but his was broken by the Witch King. Eh?
Gandalf the White had the power to break Saruman's staff, but his was broken by the Witch King. Eh?
He is not a meer man, he is the King of the Nazgul, the lord of the nine.
He can not be killed by a man, and his power does increase while Saurons does too.
If you have payed close attention, a darkness spreads from Mordor to Gondor, and when it reaches there, the war starts. (as Gandalf said).
That darkness is yes for the orc's too, day haters, but it is a representation of Saurons power. The witch king says "You fool this is my hour". when he confronts Gandalf.
The witch king can fight both with magic, and ordinary weapons, just like Gandalf. But if infact he does have the power to destroy Gandalf's staff, then you must knock out magic from Gandalfs fighting techniques against him. Now if they fought in another condition, where the presence of Sauron was not empowering the Witch king, I dont know how that fight would turn out, probably Gandalf would win.
The witch king can not be killed by a man, and don't forget Gandalf might be a wizard, but he is a man not a woman. If gandalf could rip the witch king from his weapons, or send him back to the abyss, which Im sure he can, it would be an easy win for him. But he is not allowed to use his full power.
Anyways what i'm trying to say is to give the Witch King some more credit.
Glorfindel predicted he wouldn't fall by the hand of man. Big difference
Thought I'd just add some personal opinions and points to a very interesting discussion :P
I would so wish that noone would undertake making these movies that has not truly studied the books and is intent on keeping the true line of thought and understanding that the author, the creator of the body of work intended. One someone deviates from the true intention of the canon, to me, all is lost. The result might be sensational, amazing, gut wrenching or thought provoking. But it will not be what was created, what was meant to begin with from the mind of the creator. So, really how does that honor the work, the author. It is depressing.
I must admit when I saw that scene, I felt both appalled and embarrassed and not a little chagrined at the blatant misuse of the real story.(
I am into my like 6th time viewing, and i just finished all the extras on my collectors box set.
And this sitting is killing me, cause I am noticing all these things, that I think are lame, just like the staff thing, and other things like Elijah's weak acting.
I think PJ, should put the finger to hollywood, and made these movies like 9 hours long, and made the story identical to the book. I just hate how hollywood twists and turns other peoples master works into something new. When it was that persons master work what we loved in the first place.
But if your a lord of the ring fan, your obligated to love something about it.
I love the books way more. I probably should of just watched the movies once lol
In my view, and I know a lot of you will laugh, the Gandalf V Witch King is one of PJ's only big mistakes.
It would have been so powerful to simply show a test of power between the two, with the horns of Rowan interrupting, as in the book. I didn't mind the change of set, however the fact that Gandalf seemed diminished annoys me.
I wanted to see the Witch Kings staff turn to flame, matched by Gandalf's subtle power illuminated in his staff, as done with the Balrog and finally the Witch Kings sword extinguished as the horn blow across Pelanor. The Witch King then has a choice, to stay and try to "Break" Gandalf or to fly off and join the battle. This would have been far more powerful as there is no outcome and leaves one to ponder who would have won...
Yeah that sounded way better than what happened.
I think the only reason PJ did it, was to make you feel that Saroun was gona win.
I feel that the spirits who were cursed had way to much power. I mean only aragon could harm them! This made for an easy win. But the suspense leading up to was great minus the staff thing.
I hope PJ does a super awesome job with the Hobbit, cause these movies were like the best movies ever created. I mean i love star wars, but come on, these movies were so much more beautiful, even though Lucas is at the bleeding edge of this technology, and Rick at ILM helped with the process that they used for the prequel trilogy, with the process of making these movies. I don't care, i am grateful for lucas's technology, cause we wouldn't have Transformers, Iron Mans, or LOTR with out it.
I WANT MORE AND I CAN'T WAIT.
Who wants to go on a road trip to steal a copy of the hobbit from Tolkien Ranch, and have mishap adventures along the way?
If Kristen Bell comes along, I'm in!
I cannot fathom at all them trying to portray such a high personage, who died and was sent back, even more powerful and beyond that pure and good, good being the highest and always ultimately defeating the dark because it is a diminished and corrupted -and yet that fallen thing was able to break his sceptre- I don't think so.