Hi there, Out_Of_Sheol. Welcome to Planet Tolkien. What key did you miss?



Of couse we'll be kind. We're a "family friendly" site..... and once we've got you fattened up, we'll pop you in the pot and eat you



Anyone who cares about Tolkien will fit right in around here. We have among our membership a wide range of members whose knowledge and experience of Tolkien's work covers a broad spectrum. All are welcome because it's the questions asked by those who do not know something which promotes the answers from those who do. We hope we are a valuable source of information for those wishing to know more.

So, what are you studying? Where you from? There are threads all over the place asking that sort of thing, but you might as well tell us here if you want to.

Look forward to seeing you around.

A warm welcome to the both of you! Hope you enjoy your time here at PT!



Congrats on finally finishing The Silmarillion Vee! That's my favorite book of all time! As far as more stuff from Tolkien on M.E., I highly suggest reading Unfinished Tales after the Sil (before H.O.M.E.). Have you read The Hobbit (silly question, but I had to ask)? For questions about H.O.M.E., talk to Val. He’s really one of the only ’regulars’ on this site that has read most of it. FYI, you’ll find that most members on this site have an extensive knowledge of LOTR, The Sil., The Hobbit, and UT, but very few here have treaded into the deep, dark waters of H.O.M.E. yet. Anyway, enjoy your journey!

Welcome to P-T Out_Of_Sheol and Vee.

There aren't any silly or stupid questions as I've said before, because someone else also wants to know the answers, but have been to timid to ask. And sure the answers may have already been posted somewhere in a lost or obscure post somewhere on this message board, but by bringing them up again a whole new group of members get a chance to share their views and the old ones may get to see things from a different prospective.

Vee: You should definitely read Unfinished Tales prior to starting the HOME series.

Don't plan on the HOME books being a continuation of the joy you have found in the earlier publications. There are parts of these twelve volumes that are very interesting and parts that are dry as dust. There is much that is new, or more detailed, and much repetition, as well as showing the evolution of parts of Tolkien's tales as they developed over the decades of his writing life. However, don't take just my word on this, listen to others who have gotten into them deeper, for I have barely scratched the surface of this series.

Thanks everyone for posting

Valehelgwath:
Don't worry about the "key" ) Just a little mistake on my part. But for clarification: the "key" that I was talking about was the "return" button, since I accidentally pressed it before I had a chance to type anything, so I had to post myself, so there would be something written here. (I know silly hobbits!)
Thanks for the welcome though .
Here's a little about me:
I'm in my third year at USF (U of South Florida) and I'm studying computer science. So I'm one of those computer geeks
Yet my interests sometimes makes me much of a paradox, for I'm passionately into art of all types: music, (I'm a flutist), voice, theatre, as well as (what people normally think is) art, such as drawling and painting (my favorite art medium is pastels and pencils {so far, but recently I got into colored pencils, and they’re the greatest thing!!! }) .
I also read entirely too much and whenever I have a spare moment, I find myself writing stories (though I have never posted any online , but hopefully that will change )
I love computer games, but I can't call myself a gamer since I have not played any good ones in a while...
And yes , I will have loads of questions to ask all of you guys here about characters, places, events, etc. about Tolkien's World. But hopefully I will be able to answer some questions as well. I find that I tend to pay close attention to details (perhaps that's a good thing or a bad thing, depends on who you ask). When I go about learning something (or if it becomes a passion, which so many things end up becoming) then I will spend enormous amounts of energy studying about the topic to the umpteenth degree. Not that I'm too picky or anal--cause well--being a hobbit, I can't take things too seriously.
In short, I like to have fun, but I do have an "addictive" personality, so I basically average out to a (what is the name for them...oh yes) perfectionist.
Let's just say that I make a great fan (whatever that's worth).

Vee:
Welcome to you! Glad to see that we came in together.

Grondmaster and Elfstone:
I have the Silmarillion, but have not really been dedicated enough to read all the way through, so far I have just been jumping to chapters that drew my attention. As far as the other books you guys mentioned, UT and HOME and even the Hobbit (for that matter), I have not read yet.

Once I read LOTR, I started looking for information about Tolkien (the man), I found that I wanted to know more about his philosophies and his background that inspired him to write his stories. (But that's a whole other topic!!!)
But yes, I do want to read more of his other books, when the time is right.

But, I think I've talked (or typed) enough about myself, so what about everybody else?
To pick a topic, what types of music do you guys listen too?
I’m kind of an 'everything goes", yet on the top of my list would probably be Christian, Techno, Punk, Rock, Pop. (Though mediation music is great).

OR here's a LOTR question: Does anyone know more information on Gildor Inglorion? All that I know of this character is that he was the leader of the Elf band that helped Frodo (by scaring off the Black Rider) while Frodo was still in the Shire.

I had a look at some of the transcripts for the series of teach-ins.... very interesting. Have a look. Are these sessions still going or have they been done to death?

No, that was the Elf Lord Glorfindel who made a journey to Sweden ’Oops! belay that’whom PJ replaced with Arwen.

Gildor Inglorion was in communication with both Cirdan at the Grey Havens and Elrond at Rivendell and sent warning to Elrond the Frodo was on the road carrying a great burden, that the Black Riders were about, and that Gandalf was missing.

I know we had a little bit about Gildor Inglorion somewhere, but I didn't find him under Characters, but I know he isn't the Gildor found in the Silmarillion's index. Maybe Val will remember more about him and his history.

Yeah...well...um... welcome to the new kids on the block. Hope yall enjoy your stay here in our little slice of paradise.

Thanks guys (Val, Grondmaster, and Vee) for the info on Gildor. I writing him into a fan fiction and didn't want to upset anyone if I had incorrect information
Here's another question: I heard that an Elf will only give his/her heart away once, so if his/her partner dies s/he won't remarry. Is this true? And if so, where can it be found (from Tolkien's many writings)?

Welcome to PT, Out_of_Sheol



My favorite Tolkien resource is The Letters of JRR Tolkien. A real treasure trove of Tolkien's thoughts and philosophies. I also prefer Carpenter's biography because it was authoriized by Tolkien and doesn't contain a lot of speculation, be they well founded or not. For a study, my favorite is Tom Shippey's JRR Tolkien: Author of the Century. And if you want to get a good overview of Tolkien's art, JRR Tolkien: Artist and Illustrator, although, an aquaintance of mine who is an artist felt Christina Scull may have been a bit too critical. The real treat is the number of Tolkien's ilustrations which fill the book.
I hope this is of some help to you.
We have started the LOTR discussions again on Saturdays. This week we had a quiz but if you wish to refresh, we are reading the last 3 chapters of The Two Towers.
Cheers.

Sorry to break in but I'm new too and wanted to say hello. I've been lurking for a while but decided to join in as you all seem so nice.

I've been to other places which scared me off because there seemed to be so many arguments going on.
I've been very impressed with how much people know about LOTR. I thought I was fairly familiar with the books but I've been put to shame. I recently reread the Silmarillion so that I had a vagu idea about some of the threads I've read and I hope to be able to contribute.

Welcome to PT Daisy. We are very happy that you have joined us and any ideas or viewpoints on Tolkien's works are encouraged. We love a discussion and sharing ideas.

A warm welcome to you Daisy.

Howdy Daisy! Welcome to PT!

I think they take on the doom (or gift) of men fully and go on to whatever is next for men. They don't end up in the Hall of Mandos. That's why Elrond and Arwen had such a bitter parting - they knew they would never see each other again. There's something in the back of my mind about Luthien never being seen again by elves which would suggest that this is the case. I seem to recall there being quite a lot in The Silmarillion about elves not understanding what happens to men and when individuals learn more they envy them because they (the elves) are bound to the fate of Arda whereas men are not. I hope that makes sense and isn't too vague.

I can only remember any useful information about it in The Silmarillion but as that concerns elves it's from their point of view. They don't know what happens and the Valar don't know what happens because Illuvatar didn't fill them in on that part. It's only talked about in general terms in LOTR and only in relation to Arwen. There is a bit in the appendices, I think, in the story of Arwen and Aragorn that talks about Elrond's reluctance to let Arwen give up her immortality.
Elros decided to become mortal because of his Edain blood but I can't find any reason for why he chose this over his elven blood. It seems that not all half-elvens can choose which path they take.

"The Valar indeed may not withdraw the gift of death, which comes to Men from Illuvatar, but in the matter of the Half-elven Illuvatar gave to them the judgement; and they judged that to the sons of Earendil should be given choice of their own destiny."

So for the Princes of Dol-Amroth who had elvish blood they either weren't elvish enough to be immortal or the Valar chose for them the fate of men.

Hope that helps

What you must remember here is that Arwen is not an Elf (not fully anyway). Iluvatar gave a Gift to Man that even the Valar could not take away. Arwen has Human blood in her, and so still has the right to claim the Gift of Man, even though her father has rejected it. Once the Gift of Man has been accepted (eg. in the case of Elros), that seems to be final though. Future offspring appear to have no choice - they are Men.



Actually, Men go the Halls of Mandos too, where they await The End. The place of waiting within those Halls, however, is different to where the Elves go.



Many of the later Numenorians who came to see the uncertainty of the Gift as being a Doom must have wondered this too. This, however, is after Sauron had corrupted it in their minds with his lies. It is said that after the Final Battle, when The End occurs, Ea will be healed of all its ills and reach its final fruition as it had been intended in the Beginning. Not a great deal has been written specifically about what happens next, otherwise it wouldn't be a mystery. What has been said, however, is that Man will then join Iluvatar and the Ainur in singing the Second Great Music, and that this Second Music shall be greater than the First. To me, that seems to represent what we perceive as being Heaven.

Nothing is told what becomes of Ea after the End, or the Elves that are tied to its fate. Personally, as the Second Great Music has begun and the First has ended, I believe also that that is the end of Ea too. To me its final fruition is like a flower that comes to bloom before dying. It has achieved its end. In this way, although Elves are immortal within the life of Ea, it is Man who eventually gains true immortality.

I think too, part of the Gift was that Man was not tied to Ea so strongly as the Elves either. The fate of Elves seemed very tied to their destiny, whereas Man seems to have had a more of a free reign on deciding his own fate.



Galador, the first Lord of Dol Amroth, was the son of Imrazor of Belfalas (a Numenorian mariner) and Mithrellas. Mithrellas was a Silvan Elf from Lothlorien, who was handmaiden to Nimrodel when she travelled to Edhellond with Amroth. It is said that after bearing him two children, Mithrellas wished for the West and travelled over sea leaving her husband alone. I am unsure in this case whether these two children were ever given the choice of accepting the Gift or not, but it does seem clear that Galador at least was considered a Man. Once that decision had been made, any future generations would automatically have the Gift of Man bestowed upon them even though they had ever thinning Elven blood in their veins.

I think too, while discussing this subject, we should also look closely at the fate of Arwen. Iluvatar included his own themes into the Third part of the First Great Music. These were to counter the plots of Melkor and his followers, and I believe included many of those chance (and not so chance encounters and decisions that appear so regularly in his books). Beren was fated to meet and marry Luthien. Melian had forseen that a Man guided by a greater power than her own would breach her Girdle. This was the direct interference of Eru. He needed a strong line of Kings that would unite the free people of Middle Earth. Through Beren, Luthien and Earendil he was able to do this. If you look at the lineage of Elrond, you will see he is descended from the House of Fingolfin (via Idril), all three of the Houses of the Edain (via Tuor and Beren) and also from the Sindarin king, Thingol (via Luthien). What is more important, and quite unique when compared with other mixed marriages, is that Maian blood from Melian also went into this marriage. I cannot actually think of any other Maiar apart from Melian who has had children either.

It is no fluke that Elrond and Elros were brothers either, and that one chose the Gift of Man while the other didn't. This was the intention of Iluvatar. Through this strong blood mix, vitalized with Maian blood, we got the Line of Numenorian Kings. They were noble, strong, wise and long lived... until Sauron corrupted them. Then, just when Man needs another line of strong kings to lead them into the Fourth Age, the Age of Men, we have Aragorn marrying Arwen. This was not chance, and there was nothing Elrond could do to prevent it. It had been ordained by the highest possible power. Elrond's purpose in a way was to maintain the strong Maian bloodtie in his family until the time when it was most needed, and then to restrengthen the Line of Men via his daughter Arwen.

Yes, Arwen was special. Her fate had been decided by Iluvatar before Ea even came into existance.


Wow, this has got to be the most interesting, "I'm a Newbie" thread on these boards. I think at some stage we may have to move these topics into a thread where they would feel more at home.


So are you three Newbie's feeling at home yet?

Yes, I conceed those two points, Vir. It was Melkor's lies that had initially turned Men's perception of the Gift into that of a Curse, not Sauron's. With the other one regarding Melian, I had incorrectly remembered the following line from the Silmarillion...



Hopefully, the gist of what I was saying remains valid, though.

I'd agree with that Vir. I wasn't trying so much to give the impression that Eru had totally scripted certain roles and was playing them out word for word, as he was creating the opportunities for things to happen in a certain way. What we see is the success stories, too. How many plans did he implement that went astray because his intended hero did stay at home with the wife and kids?

I still feel that Eru was adding his own moves after Melkor had been removed, however. Gandalf's comment to Frodo about it being reassuring that something had helped Bilbo find the Ring seems to point at one such instance.

I'm feeling overawed by greater wisdom.

Thanks to all the Vs who have helped clear up some of my misconceptions. Unfortunately, I'm a bit more confused about other stuff. I'll reread what you've posted v e r y s l o w l y and hope it sinks in.

Oh, if someone's putting the kettle on I'd love a cup of tea. Thanks

Val said:


It seems that 'love at first sight' is predestination.

Hey, i'm new too. I was so excited when I found this site!!!!
I am a huge, huge fan of J. R. R. Tolkien and his writings!
well, see you around.

mithrandir

Dunno if Arwen fell in love with him, after all, she is a freaky half-elven maiden. Look at Galadriel : even weirder. It is just stated she 'chose' him because to her he looked like an Elven lord from the West. Doesn't sound very romantic.

Welcome to Planet Tolkien, Mithrandir. I hope you have a great time around here. If you have any questions on how to do things, be sure to ask.

We are talking bout Aragorn, not about Legolamb, dear :P
Although Legolamb was an Elven sissy from the East.

Well honey brunch, I was replying to your comment on Galadriel and Celeborn, which I even quoted, so we also talk about Galadriel and Celeborn cause you brought it up. But I am sure Aragorns butt is quite nice too, all that walking in the mountains is good excercise! And nobody was talking about Legolamb untill you did! You are obsessed with that guy, you know that?

Actually, we are not suppose to talk about any of them because this is a thread where we are suppose to say things like this: Welcome Out_Of_Sheo, I've seen you around but I don't think I have said hello yet, so hello!