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Thread: Frodo's Dream

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Hello Spydyrbyte, welcome!
a good question - but how to answer it? I have absolutely no idea! I do not think that
it was the Ring because Frodo did not use it...
I will think about it! Smile Smilie
Hello Spydyrbyte.
I think the dreams are just a part of the mysteria in Tolkien's world. It could be the ring, though Frodo did not use it. Remember what the ring did to Boromir and he never even touched it.
As for Gandalf and Orthanc. I would say it is some underground telepathic magic that gave Frodo that dream. It is said that Gwaihir came unlooked for, but what if he also feeled something that Gandalf (unwillingly) sent out in his plight. Gandalf also said that Frodo's dream came late, so the "thought-waves" need time or Frodo was just not that sensitive for them.
Hello Spydyrbyte, welcome to the forum. Smile Smilie

Rincewind's ideas are better than anything I can come up with at the moment. Maybe someone else will provide something else later.
Greetings Spydyrbyte.

I think that Frodo's dream may have been a vision of some kind, who's source was external to his own experience. Could it have been sent by one of the Valar? or Maiar? Mandos maybe?

Remember Faramir's dream of the great wave drowning Numenor. He had obviously never seen it, but nontheless recognised it for what is was.
Yes... and remember also Faramir's and Boromir's dreams summoning them to seek help for Gondor in Imladris. Who sent them these dreams?...
I think the originator of these dreams was old JRRT using literary license to get a point across. Big Smile Smilie

"The Lord works in mysterious ways," applies here just as well. We can assume that the dream source is the same hidden puppet master(s) that allowed Bilbo to find the Ring in that black cavern under the Misty Mountains. Yes, the Ring was looking for a new victim to master; however, it wasn't the Ring that facilitated Bilbo's being there at the right time. Gandalf knows the answer, but he remains tight-lipped about the subject. Wink Smilie
it was fate... but call it JRR if it pleases you Wink Smilie
Uhuh. Me guessing it was just another of old JRR's tricks. Not unlooked-for, but inexplicable! Smile Smilie

I think that Frodo's dream may have been a vision of some kind, who's source was external to his own experience. Could it have been sent by one of the Valar? or Maiar? Mandos maybe?
Remember Faramir's dream of the great wave drowning Numenor. He had obviously never seen it, but nontheless recognised it for what is was.

I agree. Maybe it was a kind of premonition.
I still stick to JRR... Very Big Grin Smilie
No, it might have been a vision in his dream, why not? And Gandalf and he have always been close friends, so there could have been sth telepatic between them.
I believe in Tolkien! Ha Ha Ha Smilie
Don't forget that MiddleEarth is a much more magical place than our poor old Real Earth. Many elves were telepathic and adept at Mind Speach and it's likely folks who hung out with elves and wizards could probably experience such things themselves. Although Frodo didn't use the ring much, his close proximity to it would probably have heightened his senses.
Tom was Maiar, so it's likely his home would ooze magical auras. Besides after living a pretty eventful life in the Shire, Frodo had just had a pretty bad day when he dreamed of Gandalf. All of these facters might have been conducive to a sleep full of strange dreams.
As for Gandalf's rescue.... Gandalf had instructed Radagast to send birds out as spies, and to send news to either himself or Saruman at Orthanc. Gwaihir the eagle was doing this when he came across Gandalf imprisoned on the top of the tower.
He had the dream in a highly mysterious/ maagical place and was in close proximity to Tom (whether sharing the same bed is open to debate) which seems a likely reason for having the vision. It is very similar to the visions recieved on top of the hill by the Emyn Muil, or in Galadriels mirror. These were devices and places attuned to visions. Toms house could very likely have been a similar place. Frodo was vulnerable to the effects of "magic" due to his long asscociation with the ring, and it seems to me likely that this enabled him to have a vision.
This part of the book has always interested me a great deal(as does anything unexplained and concerning the grey havens) and its really interesting to hear what other people have to say about it! Orc With Thumbs Up Smilie Its Unique! nothing like it happens to Frodo again and nothing further is mentioned......ahhhh I love it!!!!!!!!!
Of course it was old JRRT himself, he is the postAuthorID, however, within the books I believe it was Iluvatar (Eru). He was the Creature of the Ainur, the Valar, the Maiar, and EVERYONE and EVERYTHING in ME.
He had the dream in a highly mysterious/ maagical place and was in close proximity to Tom (whether sharing the same bed is open to debate)

In what version is this open to debate? I've never even heard it suggested before, and it certainly isn't in the book at all, all the Hobbits had seperate beds in Bombadil's house, and Tom himself had a seperate room with his Chick in it. Unless you're joking of course....
Ya know, had you suggested Frodo and SAM might have shared a bed... I could sorta handle that. We've been down that road before.

But Frodo and TOM?!?!

/me bangs his head against the wall to try and purge those mental images... know, must get kinda lonely out there, any fresh young hobbit types that go wandering about all inocent like.......
OF COURSE I WAS JOKING!!!!!!!!!!!!! Tongue Smilie
I did not mean to suggest Frodo had the dream due to the process of osmosis (through proximity in bed) However I can now see how you might think that! I Just meant that he might've snuck in, in the night, for a cuddle.......
Wink Smilie
actually just ignore that part of the post...........

[Edited on 6/11/2002 by Cirdan]
/me laughs heartily with the relief.
I think this has to do mainly with religion - in Christianity - Dreams are given as kinda "prophecy" and direction. Kinda the street signs God puts up - if you pass this - you know you are on the right path... I think Tolkien put these up as not only forshadowing (a common theme in mythology) but as a reminder that there were higher powers watching over Frodo.
Errr I can rember gandalf saying that the dreqam was late in coming so iw wouldn't say higher powers were at work but gandalf sent the dream and frodo's unconsiousness is a bit slow in translating such stuff
Great question spydyrbyte! I liked what Val and Mellie said and also what Swampfaye said about dreams and Christianity. I would say that if a Valar or Maiar sent the dream, it wasn't Gandalf because he seemed surprised when Frodo told him about it. Though it is interesting that Gandalf said Frodo's dream came late. Tolkien had had many strange dreams throughout his life and I think it said in one of his letters that he had 'bequeathed' a re-accuring dream about a large wave to Faramir (this would be the Numenor dream)
Oh, and one last thing just occured to me: what about Galadriel? She certainly seemed powerful, being an Elf who had seen Valinor, and knew a good deal of what would happen in the future. Do you think she sent the dream (s)?
Sam, while re-reading this thread, I was also thinking about Galadriel, then I read your post. I think it is a very good possibility. Although, I still think that Iluvatar was the orginator of the idea, and perhaps put it in Galadriel's mind to send it to Frodo.

(Edited by Robbie!)
I agee that it was Eru.
Hiya Smeagol! Welcome to PT Big Smile Smilie

I agree with Mellie and Sam... Since everything in Middle-Earth comes from Eru, it is probably He who gave Galadriel the power of foresight through her mirror and she then passed it on to Frodo.
And as others have said, the ring probably made Frodo more receptive to visions, even though he wasn't wearing it.
Their could be some connection between Lothlorien being a place of dreams and visions and the Vala Irmo(Lorien) being the Lord of visions/dreams.
Their could be some connection between Lothlorien being a place of dreams and visions and the Vala Irmo(Lorien) being the Lord of visions/dreams.
Having mentioned that connection, Arwen, don't forget that Olorin (Gandalf) was a servant of Irmo before he became an Istari and spent much time wandering in Lorien. As such, he would know a lot about dreams himself.

Maybe it is not a case of who sent Frodo the dream, but how. There was a strong bond between Gandalf and Frodo. The well being of Frodo would have been paramount on Gandalf's mind during the time he was captive, so no doubt he spent a lot of that time thinking about Frodo and worrying that he had let him down. If these thoughts troubled Gandalf's dreams too, maybe he subconsciously passed these thoughts into Frodo's dream too without realising it.

I think Gandalf sent the dream through bonds he had formed with Frodo, but it was not an intentional act.
Very interesting point Val. I like it. The more I read here at PT the more I learn and acquire a better insigt and understanding of this amazing little world called Middle Earth.
I agree with you Val, very interesting, I never thought about it that way before. I suppose that everything in ME is the doing of Eru, because he works through so many people as the One God of ME.
ya i know Shocked Smilie
I have to say that many of your points are very interesting and absorbing. Initially, when I read what this was about I realized that I never questioned this matter myself. I really love what the realm of dreams can do for us Here, in this cramming, innert world. Now on the freshly envigourating Middle-Earth, that dimension should have been undescriptibly impressive. Therefore I thought instantly on Galadriel. Then I see that you finally came up with that one, and very eloquenty, I must say. So I have nothing to add. I agree also that in this place your seeking mind expands in Tolkien related matter. I like to type Tolkien. I never realized Tom was a Maiar. Of course! So perhaps Tolkien did know and manipulated as only he could. "Providence" was called of old, "Destiny" in modern terms. Tolkien knew about it and portrayed it. Did it ever occurred to him that we, you and me, would be talki... pondering about this particular matter and slice of his work? That Providence must have been his muse and all he did was bow to her and depicted her in the most beautiful and intriguing set of words. Elf Smilie
Azadhel, how old are you? Because you sound like a wise old sage. Cool Smilie
Loni, you are free to check my profile. But only You!
Paranoid Smilie
Thanks for the Sage remark, and thanks for the Wise remark as well. I, like all of us, have my moments. Specially it the topics are as good as the one discussed here. You seem like a wise, yet adventurer type. I would like to encourage you in your exploring path... and assist you, if needs be.
Elf Smilie
Heehee, not so wise now. More like bragging. But I brag too, so it's okay! ( Anything I do anyway is okay, btw.)
Have you seen that excelent movie "Waking Life"? That is a superb example of how dreams are defined as reality, and why reality really is a dream. I wonder, sometimes, specially after I read some of your post, if you are just a dream of my own. Perhaps I am just a dream of yours. The thing is, after remembering and recalling all one reads here, you get a sense of what people are like. You imagine all of us as your creativity allows, influenced by the way our thoughts are smashed into the screen with letters, words, phrases, and paragraphs (such as this one). You might also get an idea of our personality, the echo of our ideas and thoughts. Specially important is to notice the Avatar. That little squared image of "Us", right here on the left of the same text that represent our passions, our desires, our comments and our opinions. Perhaps you created me, in your imagination, and just waited for the right moment to tell yourself this. This that you (think you) are now reading. The interesting thing is that you actually did, for if it wasn’t because of you, this chain of thought would seem like nonsense and what you make of my ideas is really your own. Now, these ideas are yours. They always were, only you waited. Waited for some anonymous transcriber (Azadhel, at your humble service) to inocently dream of you, instead, and plainly have a conversation over time. That is why I enjoy this forum idea. You think you know me. I hope to know you... eventually. Hey, here is crazy thought: post something about dreams! After all, that is what the topic is about, specifically Frodo’s. The cool thing about dreams is that to the mind, in that "sleep" state, whatever (anything) that happens in a dream is Real. The part of your brain that lets you know that reality is reality is shut down during the dreaming period, but all the rest of the brain functions and perceptions are as awake as always. So what we percieve as real in a dream is as real to the mind as any thing real could be. Cool, huh?
We can't read in dreams. It's true. You might know what the note or sign is suppose to say, but you can not read it.
I haven't seen that movie. I wish I had. And you're absolutely right, both of you!
There is a cool part in that movie that speaks just about that. Apparently small print is illegible. To my experience it’s very unstable. Also (it says) adjusting light levels is impossible too. If you see a light switch, turn it on and off for fun. If you can’t turn off the light, most likely you’re dreaming. After I saw that you see me turning on and off the lights everywhere.