This is something that popped into my head just a moment ago.

There are some differences in the manner in which Orcs go about their business. In the First Age, Morgoth's will dominated thease creatures so strongly, that there is no mention (unless I am mistaken, I read The Silmarillion a while ago) of any Orc chieftain, in the sense, that he decided for himself. Everything the Orcs did in those days was to carry out orders of The Dark Lord.
However, in the Third Age there are times in wich Orcs seem to govern their own, to some extent. Thorin and Co. are captured and brought into the presence of a great Orc (Goblin) Chieftain, who seems to be more than just a puppet of someone's will. If he were, the fact that The One Ring existed relatively close to him would'nt escape his master's attention.
Azog and Bolg seem to be more than just pawns. They make decisions, plan strategies and act on them. Of course Moria (where Azog dwelt) was populated by Sauron with his creatures (around 2480, III Age), but reading the appedices in the Lord of the Rings, I got the impression that even if they got orders from Sauron, they weren't specific. They just stated: Don't let Moria be recolonized by Dwarves. How to achieve this was up to them. Their chieftains were to figure out how to carry out these orders.
Mount Gundabad, which was a sacred place fot the Dwarves became an Orc stronghold. It was from here that the Orcs moved on Erebor the battle of The Five Armies. This clearly suggests that they were "organized" in a way. During this battle the movements of their forces were made by Orcs, not by some outside will. They weren't entirely controlled by the will of Sauron or The Witch King. They showed a high level of independence (however it is safe to say that even though the Orcs may have thought they were fighting the Dwarves for some other reasons the bottom line is that it was in Sauron's interest that they do so)

It may be that this was due to the fact that Orcs in the Third Age were much more numerous than in the First Age. The territories they occupied were greater (after all the Orcs of the First Age were kept in Thangorodrim, thus on Morgoth's doorstep). They Orcs of the Third Age forged realms (in a way), like Gundabad or Moria. It may be because Sauron didn't have a power great enough to controll them all. Perhaps learning from Morgoth's mistakes, Sauron deduced that it was "wiser" to give the Orcs more freedom in their actions, and that, added to their sheer numbers and ferocity would serve him better.

The Orcs of Mordor, fighting at The Black Gate however were close to Sauron. I think that he and his Nazgul controlled their every movement. That is why The Lidless Eye had to concentrate fully on those events, leaving Orodruin totally unwatched.

I don't remember if Saruman's army had an Orc chieftain. Maybe some of you remember the structure of command. Did Saruman leave the immediate decisions of battle to some general or did he himself controll his hosts. It seems doubtful that he did it himself, I don't think he had that much power. Then again I may be wrong.

Now that you mention it, how is it possible that Sauron populated Moria 500 years after the awakening of the Balrog, and he didn't know about its presence there?
If Sauron knew nothing, then it proves my point - he left Moria with the Orcs. But if he knew, would'nt he put the Deamon of Fire to some better use? Like attacking Lorien or try to transport him to Mordor...That would be much more useful to him than just "blocking" Moria.

As far as Shagrat and Gorbag go. I think they are the exeption to the rule. They cannot possibly represent a meaning percentage of Sauron's army. It's impossible that a considerable number of his Orcs were dreaming about their own realms. Sauron would'nt give them so much freedom, because he could'nt keep discipline in his ranks

This is an interesting point. I agree with the first part. They were untrustworthy creatures. Fear of Sauron was what drove them, but not his promising of lands. As far as I am aware nowhere is it written that Sauron "bribed" Orcs in such a way. He used political means when dealing with his human allies, but not the Orcs. If there are such writings, they would have to totally change my perception of Orcs.



This is true, although you must remember: Shelob and her ancestors were never dominated. With Shelob Sauron didn't even try. When it comes to the Balrog, he was "just" a servant. before he fled under the Mountains. He probably could be subdued again. And by who if not Sauron (with or without the Ring, I wonder...)

Do not underestimate Sauron.



Not any more. Sauron in the Third Age is the single most powerful being in Middle Earth. No single person could withstand him one to one. It took nothing short of the alliance of the free peoples to temporarily overthrow him. The Balrog could not withstand Sauron who was one of the the Maia, long ago servant of Aule. The Fire Demon was a twisted creation of Morgoth. In my opinion Sauron could controll the Balrog with or without the Ring on his finger. It would be difficult without the Ring, but certainly Sauron was capable of it. And the fact that he was unable to take physical form weakened him for a time. But when he regained his power he was once again as mighty as ever.

The cutting of the Ring from his hand was destiny, pure fate. Otherwise nothing could ever stop him. This one event had far fetched consequences for Sauron. Years later it proved to be the pebble that started the avalanche of his downfall.
Call it an intervention of Eru...


Nice one Miruvor, something we totally agree on

Oh of course, how could I forget. Balrogs are also Maia. You're absolutely right.
So Sauron could have controlled him only when he had the Ring.

I'm WAY too tired to be doing this, so I'll limit myself to a few comments on the original and last posts.

True, Sauron was thrice defeated, once without combat, but in each case the combined might of the Children of Eru to do it, and in the last it would have been pitifully insufficient against even the half-Sauron without the Ring; that was fate as well, with a little free will thrown in. All carefully stage managed be Eru thousands of years before the fact. One wonders how it would have been accomplished had the characters made different choices.

Orc control, hurm.... there's two ways I can look it that: one, Morgoth continued to exert some control over them from within (without?) the Void, and any apparent independence was an illusion. On the other hand, they're supposed to be derived from Elven stock, and had some identity inherent that Morgoth merely subjugated. With Morgoth removed, this would reassert itself unless dominated by a similar will, and while Sauron could accomplish things such as this, he couldn't do it as comprehensively as Morgoth, and would likely have become more difficult with distance.

Just my two cents; I'm still wrestling with that "two minds, beating with just one heart" Dragon Reborn thing.

Nice to see such an interesting discussion has popped up while I've been away.

Firstly, I'll just add my support to Miruvor's belief that Sauron is not all powerful, and though he might be able to defeat the Balrog, the injuries he would suffer himself would be too great to risk. Whatever, I don't think the balrog would ever willingly serve him. If it did not fight to the death or manage to flee, as soon as it regained its strength Sauron would have to fight once more.

Anyway, back to orcs. Two things that have not been mentioned why Morgoth appeared to have better control on them than Sauron.

1) For most of the Third Age Sauron was still regaining his power after his defeat at the Battle of the Last Alliance. His form had been scattered and it took the best part of 3000 years to come back into being. Remember, even at the time of the Hobbit he was hiding in Mirkwood as the Necromancer. His power was building by then, but he was still unable to hold off the White Council when they attacked Dol Guildur. Only by the time of the War of the Ring was he feeling powerful enough to launch a war on the West, and only then by using alliances with Saruman etc.

In that 3000 years, the orcs had had time to form some sort of clan leadership for themselves, so they had perhaps developed a greater independance than they had enjoyed under Melkor's domination. This independance would no doubt have led to greater experience (and perhaps better intelligence) too. This is tied in to my second point...

2) It was Sauron who had first bred the Uruk hai. These were far superior to ordanary orcs in both strength and intelligence. Almost all of the later "chieftains" we later hear about would have been uruks. Azog and Bolg almost certainly were, and I imagine the War of the Dwarves and Orcs fought during their time was conducted without too much direct control from the Necromancer. These uruks were certainly able to make their own decisions, and Sauron would have to be pretty close to dominate them. I believe one of the reasons Sauron bred the uruks was not just to get a more powerful fighting unit, but he knew he had the need for better leaders. Melkor, with his greater power, was able to dominate his armies from afar. Sauron did not have this luxury and so had to have commanders who could control the action when he was not near.

By this I meant commanders who would ensure the army made it to the battlefield and stood and fought, rather than military geniouses. If it were not for their bullying sergeants etc, my guess is many of Sauron's orcs would have slipped away into the hills long before they saw a Gondorian soldier or Rohirrim nag. Under Melkor's thrall, however, I don't think they had the chance.

Valedheldwath, interesting point:



I also think there is a lot of truth in your other statement:

I also think that Morgoth had a much greater power over the Orcs of his time.However Sauron had enough power over them that they did'nt just flee before Gondorians and the Rohirrim. They could be overpowered in battle, but they were'nt that "free" of Sauron as to escape long before they saw their enemies.



You must remember that the Orcs were smart enough to know who they were fighting. They feared individuals (eg. Aragorn, Gandalf) and weapons (eg. Orcrist). The only thing that would force them to fight was bullying and a greater fear of what would be done to them if they did'nt. They were'nt mindless killing machines, throwing themselves on their opponents' blades. They had to be controlled - Saruman's Uruks and other Orc species eventually fled from the Hornburg. Saruman obviously lacked the power to hold them at bay.

And I have to agree, Morambar:


You and I see it the same way.

And Miruvor, how can you say:


Isn't The War of the Ring all about the fact that he cannot be underestimated? He was left relatively to himself and he regained his power. Everyone had to chip in to destroy him again. If not the destrucution of the Ring, he would still have been victorious in arms. You say that Gandalf would be able to overpower him. That cannot be true - his mission was to destroy Sauron, period. If Gandalf were powerful enough he would at least think about facing Sauron, even if it meant his (Gandalf's) death. It doesn't state anywhere that he was'nt allowed to.

So you're saying that in the utter need Gandalf would just step down and not overpower Sauron (even as you think he had the power to do so). He would just set sail and leave Middle Earth to his dominion?
I'm just saying that Gandalf didn't have that power in the first place.

This is true, but Gandalf could'nt have helped in any other way, even if he wanted or was permitted to. No one individual in Middle Earth could have. Sauron was just too powerful.

I agree Miruvor. The only duel he could be challenged to was a mind duel. Via the Palantir. After all that's how he enslaved Saruman and Denethor. This was the only "fight" he felt comfortable in.


And he could'nt reclaim his physical form anyway, after the drowning of Numenor, so I don't think a physical duel was at all possible after that.

His combat skills let him down a couple of times as was mentioned before. In the Third Age he knew that well and thence others fought for him. He just waited for the final victory of his forces. Then he would'nt need to fight anyone, anymore.

It's an interestiing thing - Sauron's form. Unfortuantely I don't have my books with me. It's a totally different topic, not for this thread.

Very nice, Grondmaster. You share my wiev on Eru's intervention (he was the only power that could deprive Sauron of his Ring) and the Orcs.
Nicely put

Nicely put, Miruvor; I'm in total agreement with a position whose nuances I've found most people don't appreciate. "But, but, predestiny contradicts free will!!!" Not if you're omniscient....