Thread: copyright question
Planet Tolkien is archived and no longer updated, but the forums remain browseable. We have established a Telegram group for old and new visitors to stay connected and discuss all things Tolkien.Is the use of names from LOTR as part of a theme in order to sell a product a copyright infringement? The names are not used as the commodities themselves, they are simply used to provide ambience.
could you give an example?
An amusement park named "Beleriland" (yes, I know that's misspelled), with a log ride named "Anduin" and a spook house named "Angband". Themed regions named "Doriath" and "Nargothrond". It would not be using Tolkien's writings (directly), nor selling the words as writings, but it would be using individual words (unique to, and meaningless without the context of Tolkien's work).
Of course, to reach a larger clientele, the names would probably have to go more "modern", like "Moria" for the spook house and like "Loth Lorien" for a themed region.
Of course, to reach a larger clientele, the names would probably have to go more "modern", like "Moria" for the spook house and like "Loth Lorien" for a themed region.
I would expect a lawsuit filed fairly quickly (doesn't necessarily mean the lawsuit would win, but they'd probably still try to file one) if someone used advertisement such as that for their own product, unless they paid royalties. Especially if that amusement park had clowns named Grima Wormtongue.
It all comes boils down to, are those trademark names? I'm not too sure you'd have to look it up.
It all comes boils down to, are those trademark names? I'm not too sure you'd have to look it up.
It's about intellectual property here. Obviously Tolkien didn't trademark every name he ever concocted.
Basically I think one is allowed to use any name, as long as they're used in an atmosphere that doesn't damage the reputation of the original names (or something like that) - for instance, the name 'Beleriand' being used for a public toilet.
It might even be that one is allowed to simply use any name from any work, as long as one credits the use name as originating from Tolkien. In fact, there is a villain in Marvel Comics that is named Sauron, and it is mentioned he took his name from Tolkien's Sauron.
Since there are law firms specializing only in copyright law, it's probably a bit more tricky than that.
Basically I think one is allowed to use any name, as long as they're used in an atmosphere that doesn't damage the reputation of the original names (or something like that) - for instance, the name 'Beleriand' being used for a public toilet.
It might even be that one is allowed to simply use any name from any work, as long as one credits the use name as originating from Tolkien. In fact, there is a villain in Marvel Comics that is named Sauron, and it is mentioned he took his name from Tolkien's Sauron.
Since there are law firms specializing only in copyright law, it's probably a bit more tricky than that.
Also you would have to use your own original artwork or New Line's lawyers would be after you too. Best to get your own lawyer ahead of time to keep out of trouble with the Tolkien Family and the film industry.
I of course mean no ill intent toward the Tolkien family, and certainly no disrespect toward the work (as if there were any doubts). In fact, this is not something that I am even considering personally, but I know of some businesses that use this idea, and I am thinking twice before sharing my information, because I don't want to advertise a copyright infringement and get these small business owners in trouble. I admire the fact that they have been doing it long before PJ, back when being a Tolkien fan meant more than just enjoying an epic movie trilogy.
As Virumor mentioned it is intellectual copywrite. Tolkien did not copywrite individual names, but he did copywrite his books (and hence the ideas). I'm uncertain how much a name becomes "owned" under that copywrite protection, but if a whole group of names are used in conjunction, it is seen as infringing upon the "idea". For example, you'd probably have no problem marketing something using a single name, but once you group several of them together, the lawyers have an easier time proving you are borrowing from a copywrited source.
Tolkien estates have always been pretty protective of the parts of copywrite they still own, but this was taken to whole new levels by New Line when the films were such a success. Many websites like our own were threatened with lawsuits if we did not remove certain artwork, and they even tried taking the Tolkien part of our name away from us.
To show how far this "grabbing" went.... I live in Lincolnshire, one of several "Shire" counties in England. I did see somewhere that New Line lawyers had even tried claiming our Shire names back as they were supposedly copywrited.
Powerful search engines have made their jobs easier too, as something that would have remained fairly well hidden in obscurity before, can now be highlighted if someone types in the correct search words (eg. lawfirm decides New Line own the word Shire, they type Shire into Google and then sue everyone using it).
Being a writer of Tolkien fan fiction, I use Tolkien characters a lot. I am unable to market these stories, however, as doing so would be a breach of copywrite. You even have to be careful basing your stories in a "similar" world, because it could potentially be proved that you have plagarised the concept.
Tolkien estates have always been pretty protective of the parts of copywrite they still own, but this was taken to whole new levels by New Line when the films were such a success. Many websites like our own were threatened with lawsuits if we did not remove certain artwork, and they even tried taking the Tolkien part of our name away from us.
To show how far this "grabbing" went.... I live in Lincolnshire, one of several "Shire" counties in England. I did see somewhere that New Line lawyers had even tried claiming our Shire names back as they were supposedly copywrited.
Powerful search engines have made their jobs easier too, as something that would have remained fairly well hidden in obscurity before, can now be highlighted if someone types in the correct search words (eg. lawfirm decides New Line own the word Shire, they type Shire into Google and then sue everyone using it).
Being a writer of Tolkien fan fiction, I use Tolkien characters a lot. I am unable to market these stories, however, as doing so would be a breach of copywrite. You even have to be careful basing your stories in a "similar" world, because it could potentially be proved that you have plagarised the concept.
Thanks, Val. That was very descriptive. I can't believe how insane the legal idiots are over the "shire" issue. Doesn't "shire" mean "county" in "english", and Tolkien used that word as a nice balance between colloquial and legendary, and the only invention was to capitalize the "S"?
So let me get this straight. It's not the Tolkien family, it is the film producers that now own the copyrights? That's sad.
So let me get this straight. It's not the Tolkien family, it is the film producers that now own the copyrights? That's sad.
I believe there are actually several Rights, currently held by different companies. Tolkien sold the Film Rights before he died, and I presume they are currently held by New Line, or whoever owns New Line. There are also the Book Rights, which I think the Tolkien Estates still own (please someone correct me if I am wrong here). I am unsure whether there are separate Game Rights, or whether games companies attain their license to create the games from the owners of either the film or book right owners. I have a feeling this is the case, hence the two styles of games that have recently evolved from the LotR idea. I think the Lord of the Rings Trilogy of games are made under the film rights, while the Battle for Middle Earth games are done under the book rights.
Tolkien estates are protective of their rights, but it is the lawyers of New Line who seemed intent on closing down every aspect of LotR that they did not have their own claws on. I saw several of the letters they wrote Taz (the old owner of the site) at the time, and they were quite threatening. When Taz made a stand and decided to keep PT running, we thought we'd have to bust him out of jail. We were forced to remove some rather nice art galleries and about 50 maps of Middle Earth etc from the site though, and had to carefully moderate any posts containing quotes from any of the books to ensure they gave correct credit to where they had come from.
Tolkien estates are protective of their rights, but it is the lawyers of New Line who seemed intent on closing down every aspect of LotR that they did not have their own claws on. I saw several of the letters they wrote Taz (the old owner of the site) at the time, and they were quite threatening. When Taz made a stand and decided to keep PT running, we thought we'd have to bust him out of jail. We were forced to remove some rather nice art galleries and about 50 maps of Middle Earth etc from the site though, and had to carefully moderate any posts containing quotes from any of the books to ensure they gave correct credit to where they had come from.
I've read arguments (recently on these forums) to the effect that PJ's movies do not represent the LOTR story, but the movies are only based on the LOTR story. If this is true, I don't see how the lawyers would have much of a case against anything legitimately Tolkien related. (And if this is not true, then PJ's movies really did miss the mark, but that's another topic.)
well i wouldn't really say 'they missed the mark'.
Quote:
You even have to be careful basing your stories in a "similar" world, because it could potentially be proved that you have plagarised the concept.
You even have to be careful basing your stories in a "similar" world, because it could potentially be proved that you have plagarised the concept.
Uh-oh...
Once upon a time when I did (sort of )professional baking and wanted to copyright my recipes I was told that if there were three differences then the recipe was original. Of course there are so many recipes all being passed around who can tell, but maybe the rule of three applies elsewhere, too. If you wrote a Tolkien inspired story but added a new race of being or two and a new sort of fell creature maybe it would be considered original. Just a thought.
