I have transferred Celeborn's posts from Religion of Middle Earth thread to here as the content is not relevent to that thread. - Rednell.

 

THE STORY OF THE TIMELESS DREAM:  Before Iluvatar Awoke, He existed in a Timeless Dream that never had a Beginning. Time existed in the Dream, but flowed in a circular fashion. Events never repeated, but had no Beginning or End. It was very confusing. In the Dream, Iluvatar had a Wife and Child who advised Him. They really existed but came from Him. Occasionally a Dark Shadow would pass by, making Iluvatar uncomfortable. In the Dream, Iluvatar endlessly debated with Himself whether or not to make Others. He thought of all the pain and suffering involved with creating separate Beings and shuddered. Against this He weighed the fact that they would never exist at all if He didn't make them. Finally, against His better judgement, he determined to Wake Up and Do Something. He pulled all of His thoughts within Himself, pulling them inside out; He woke up. When He did, Nothingness was pressing against Him and He was afraid. But he mustered His resources and threw His Thoughts out from Himself. This created the Thirteen Dimensions; much to His astonishment, He saw that time was now flowing in a Straight Line. He began to build the Halls of Time. Presently, He felt very  ill. He tore the Sickness from Him and threw it down. It stood up and became the Original Evil. Iluvatar was enraged because it would not stop existing. The Evil struck Him, breaking off pieces that became Ainur and Souls. The Evil sucked up the Souls, but Iluvatar forced it to disgorge them. Then He struck the Evil; it collapsed into a Pool of Muck and flowed off. Then Iluvatar fell asleep to regenerate Himself. While he slept, two thirds of the Ainur found the Pool of Muck and drank it dry. One third drank a little, and became mischievous Sprites (Loki was among these). But the other Third drank a lot and became Demons.  Melkor was the Chief of these, because he had also found all of God's Bad Ideas in the Void and devoured them. Some he gave to his friend Annatar (Sauron). When Iluvatar made the Universe (Ea), He put His Wife within it to give it Reality; His Child dwelt among the Created Beings. Many of the Spirits descended to Ea to find their destiny, for good or ill.

More transferred text from Celeborn's post:

To Thorin Oakenshield of Mighty Renown and to Balrogs R Us, who has a mighty strange name for an Elf. Well, heh-heh, it could be my wife Galadriel had these stories from Manwe or Elbereth, but it's not the case. The truth of the matter is, as I was strolling along the strand near the Hall of Mandos one day,  I came across an Old Codger building a strange kind of wall. "Say there, gaffer," says I. "Don't you know whose property you're on?" "Yes!" snapped the whitebeard. "Mine!" Then he told me some rather peculiar stories, including the ones you find above. After that, he disappeared in a puff of white smoke. I told Manwe about it. He stroked his beard and said "Most uncanonical, but amusing. I'll have to give the old so-and-so a try myself!" My wife Galadriel said "He sounds like trouble!" And that's the long and short of it. Make of it what you will.

 

 

According to the Knowers, a sect that existed in Gondor at the End of the Fourth Age, there will be no Final Battle. Instead there will be a Great Judgement, in which all of Eru's Intelligent Creations will be judged. This will occur after Ea expires of Old Age. All Evil Ainur will be greatly diminished and reduced to Souls. They will be put with all the Evil Souls of the Thinking Kindreds of Ea. While Good Spirits and  Souls shall join Eru in the Final Music, the Evil Souls will be reincarnated in a new Universe where they will have Free Will. They will live billions of lives until they redeem themselves. The Knowers hold that Eru will keep creating Universes until every single one of His creatures are saved. Eru is Great, His Mercy Is Boundless!

 

 

Manwe informs me that we are currently in the 2006th year of the EIGHTH AGE. I don't know where on Arda I got Sixth from, or why I've been saying it. Ah well, Post-Change Chronology was never my forte, I've only just gotten interested in it. I believe a Hobbit told me, I think they use a different system. Be that as it may, the Fourth Age lasted 3,416 years and came to an end with The Last Change, an Act of Iluvatar that merged two Parallel-Dimension Universes into one Consensus Universe, the one that you and I inhabit ( I reside presently in a Hidden Dimension of your Universe). This took place in 10,054 BC, and the Fifth Age promptly started. This ended with the Flood of 7404 BC. The Sixth Age started, and ended with the establishment of Sumerian civilization in 4002 BC. The Seventh Age started, and ended with the birth of Yeshua in 4 BC. The Eighth Age commenced, and we are currently nearing the end of its 2006th year. Those darned Hobbits with their screwy Winterfilth, they get everything all bolluxed up! Well I'm going to give Freawine Baggins a piece of my mind, I'll tell you! Sorry, everyone. Sent from Valmar on 2 Hisime, Eighth Age 2006. The blessings of Eru upon you.

 

More of Celeborn's post. Please note that, although, my name appears as the author of these posts, I, merely, copy and paste the contents of Celeborn's threads in Religion of Middle Earth.

 Here's a little more about Dagor Dagorath. It didn't go exactly according to script. Of course Gilthrang immediately let Melkor and Sauron back into Arda. Melkor cuffed Sauron and said "Now why couldn't you be more like this Good Boy?" "Ouch, I'm sorry!" Sauron whined. Just then Turin charged up and stabbed Melkor with his sword. Melkor fell dead, but immediately came back to life. "I suppose you forgot that Ainur never die!" Melkor smirked. Then he tied Turin up on the Moon. Then Earendil dashed up. Melkor threw away his bow and arrow and said "I could throttle you for killing Ancalagon!" He tied Earendil up on the Moon as well. Then Manwe hurried up, out of breath. "Melkor!" cried Manwe. "Why are you so bad? You were always such a good boy, what happened?" Melkor threw his hat on the ground and said "I drank Deadly Poison in the Void, you fool! And then I got the other idiots to do it too! I'm not myself! You know all this!" Manwe grabbed Melkor by the ear and said "Well maybe I can pinch the badness out!" "Eeyow!" howled Melkor. "Gilthrang?" "Uh, you'd better cut that out!" said Gilthrang uncertainly. "Stand back!" shouted Sauron, waving his reconstituted Ring, "Or You Know What!" "Uh-oh!" said Manwe, letting go. Just then, Iluvatar came up, and you know the rest. Cirdan saw the whole thing, he swears up and down it happened just this way. I have no reason to doubt him.

 

 

When Melkor was thrown out of Arda, Iluvatar called Melkor to Him. Melkor reluctantly came. "What do You want?" he said sullenly. "Good news, Melkor!" said Iluvatar. "I have found out what Evil is! Would you like to know what it is?" Melkor shrugged irritably. "I am stark raving mad!" he snapped. "Nothing that You tell me will make the slightest bit of difference!" "I will tell you anyway,"said Iluvatar. "When I first awoke from the Timeless Dream, I first came into contact with the Void. When the Void touched Me, it caused a chemical reaction within Me. When I tore the affected part out, it became Evil." "And I drank it all up, I and the others. And now I am poisoned for good," said Melkor. "It was your bad decision," said Iluvatar. "But a germ of good exists within you still." "Too bad!" snorted Melkor. "No, good for you!" said Iluvatar. "At the end of the Universe, the Evil part of you will turn back into Void and cease to exist. The Germ of Good will be the only part of you that survives." "So?" said Melkor. "So the Germ of Good is about enough to make into a Soul. I will make a new Universe for you and the other Unworthy at the end of things. Time will start again, and you will be reincarnated into billions of lives until you redeem yourself. So there's hope for even you!" "Whoop-dee-doo!" said Melkor, twirling his finger. "Can I go now?" "Yes, you may go," said Iluvatar. "Then goodbye!" said Melkor, and he left.

 

 

AGOR DAGORATH CONTINUED: "Manwe, you get back to Aman at once!" shouted Iluvatar. "Sure," muttered Manwe. "Wait!" said Iluvatar. He handed Manwe the souls of Turin and Earendil. "Take these with you!" He said. "Yeah, right," said Manwe, hurrying off. Iluvatar turned to glare at the three wicked Ainur. "Well, I suppose you're all very proud of yourselves!" He growled. "Another lecture!" wailed Melkor, sticking his fingers in his ears. Iluvatar spotted the Ring in Sauron's hand. "Eh? What's this?" He said, snatching it away. "Hey!" Sauron cried. "What are you doing with this back again?" said Iluvatar, squinting at the Ring in disbelief. "Yeah, well, it rematerialized again in my hand, didn't it?" mumbled Sauron. "I thought I told you to lay off!" shouted Iluvatar, crushing the Ring to dust between his thumb and forefinger. "Oh no!" whimpered Sauron. "No more rings for you!" said Iluvatar. "Now go back to the Void!" Sauron ran off, crying. "And as for you!" roared the Deity, wheeling towards Gilthrang. "Who, me?" said Gilthrang, looking around desperately. "You mean to tell me you've been lying around in a Vault for upwards of 40,000 years? For what purpose, sir?" "Well, it was part of the Plan!" said Gilthrang defensively. "Ooooh, the Plan!" said Iluvatar mockingly. "Well here's a better plan! Go back to the Void! Now!" "Crikey!" yelped Gilthrang, and scurried off. "Hello again, Melkor!" said Iluvatar  sarcastically. "I am very ill!" Melkor snapped. "Oh, spare me, please!" groaned Iluvatar. "Same old excuse for eons! You stupidly poison yourself and you think it somehow exonerates you! Well, I'll have a word with you in the Void, young man! This is the last time you interfere here! Now skedaddle!" "Gladly!" huffed Melkor, and darted off. Then Iluvatar turned and addressed Arda (above).

 

DISCLAIMER: All of the above are extracts from The Book of the Endless Dream, the Scriptures of the Knowers, a divergent sect of the Faith-Holders, who flourished in the Fourth Age in Middle Earth. Unfortunately some of my speculative writings were used by a certain Eremon, who interpreted them as the Word of Eru. Aside from Eremon, the authorship of many of these pieces is Unknown. The BOTED was considered uncanonical by the religious establishment of Middle Earth, and the Knowers were never more than a local cult in Minhiriath. The Don Prophet never knew of this material, and would possibly disagree with certain aspects of it. I reproduce it here as a historical curiosity, an example of the religious diversity of Middle Earth. I am not a member of this religion, I adhere to the Orthodox faith. I hope this will be of some interest to the Curious. CSOG

KNOWERS CHRONOLOGY CONTINUED (All Years are of the Fourth Age):  2344: The Great Debate of Moria: Elder Edda has a series of theological debates with Snizi the Dwarf.  2423: A new diocese is established in Dale.  2497: Missionaries are driven away by the Avari Elves of the Iron Hills.  3010: The Orthodox ecclesiastic Ogsarus of Gladden publishes his "Ten Objections to Knowerism."  3012: Elder Beri publishes "In Defense of the True Knowledge."  3017: Lender of Osgiliath publishes "A Patronizing Disparagement of Celebornism."  3145: The diocese of Dorwinion is established.  3171: The martyrs Hithabu and Sliaswic are killed by Atheists in Minas Ithil; they are Sat Upon to death.  3193: Knowers clash with Sauronites in Nurn.  3215: Knowers persecuted in Tolfalas.  3233: Many Wereworms of the Last Desert are converted.  3241: The "Disclaimer" of Celeborn of Aman.  3264: Knowers are expelled from the Archeologists' Guild.  3277: The divergent Temple of Khand separates from the Knowers on the issue of Wearing Beards.  3298: The Great Schism occurs; separate Top Elders in Dol Menhir and Annuminas.  3300: The Great Schism is resolved by a game of dice.  3319: Elder Oddo is burned at the stake in Rohan.  3326: "The Great Hemming and Hawing" of Cirdan.  3329: "Remonstrance to Rohan" released by Top Elder Entwistle.

A TIMELINE FOR THE DISSOLUTION OF THE REUNITED KINGDOM (All Years are of the Fourth Age):  1723: Prince Chowmeinwe Halfeastron finds Nimrodel sleeping in a cave in the White Mountains, under an enchantment. He awakens her with a kiss, and they are married in Minas Tirith.  1724: Avarion is born.  1727: Chowmeinwe becomes King of the RUK.  1758: Avarion becomes King of the RUK.  1761: Avarion puts down a revolt by his brother Nimrod.  1776: King Avarion of the Reunited Kingdom creates his second son Arbuthnot Grand Duke of Eriador and his youngest son Lothar Duke of Enedwaith. Arbogast, the Crown Prince, climbs the White Tree of Gondor in protest and refuses to come down for three weeks.  1781: King Avarion dies. Arbuthnot and Lothar immediately declare independence from Gondor. Arbuthnot becomes King of Eriador (capital: Bree), and Lothar becomes King of Enedwaith (capital: Lond Daer). Arbogast becomes King of Gondor.  1783: Arbogast puts down a rebellion by Oropher, Prince of Dol Amroth, and confiscates his lands.  1787: The capital of Gondor is moved to Edhellond by Arbogast.  1789: Drugi, the last of the Druedain, dies in Osgiliath.  1793: The Concord of Orthanc: Arbogast and Arbuthnot agree to divide the lands of Lothar.  1794: Lothar concludes the Peace of Edoras with Cutha, King of Rohan; the Cold Truce begins.  2001: King Arbogast creates his second son Arkansawyer Grand Duke of Rhun (capital: Winyalonde) and his youngest son Casper Duke of Harondor-Umbar (capital: Umbar). Arbutus, the Crown Prince, publishes his Mild Objection.

DISSOLUTION TIMELINE PART THREE (All Years are of the Fourth Age):  2029:  Wolfram of Framsburg takes over the Northern Reaches with the aid of the Half-Orcs of Gundabad, and proclaims the Kingdom of Rhovanion.  2032: Happy Butterbur weds Amalasuntha, Sancho's only daughter. Sancho creates him the First Earl of Staddle.  2035: King Sancho visits Winyalonde and enters a wine-tasting contest; he wins but perishes of inebriation. The Earl of Staddle becomes the next King of Eriador as Happy the First, inaugurating the Butterbur Dynasty.  2036: King Arbutus of Gondor dies and is succeeded by his son Arboretum; Rhun and Harondor-Umbar secede and become separate Kingdoms.  2037: Ithilien obtains partial autonomy.  2038: Inkanus, the Wazir of Khand, annexes Harondor and Nurn. Casper is suceeded by Jasper as King of Umbar.  2041: The Great Influx of the Avari to the Iron Hills. 2042-2050: The Dwarves of the East migrate to Moria.  2045-2051: The Ents remove to the Old Forest of Eriador after King Ceawlin of Rohan sells Fangorn to land speculators.  2052: Golfimbul XIV of Gram succeeds to the Crowns of Rhovanion and Upper Anduin by marriage.  2053: Golfimbul makes Lorien and Greenwood into Nature Preserves; the Green-Elves migrate to Lindon. Their place is taken by Avari laborers from Emyn Engrin.

DISSOLUTION TIMELINE PART FIVE (All Years are of the Fourth Age):  2087: The former Shire is reorganized into the Province of Hildorien by Nob the First; the capital is at Dol Hildor (formerly Bywater).  2088: The Second Trek: The Hobbits of Bree-Land migrate to Newshire, where they are put into refugee camps.  2090: Durin's Census reveals that 75% of Dwarves now live at Moria, with 25% residing at New Gabilgathol in the Blue Mountains.  2091: King Nob the First dies of apoplexy and is succeeded by his son, King Nob the Second.  2095: The new realms of Hollin, Celebrant, Celduin, Emyn Muil, and Brownlandia are recognized by Gondor as separate entities.  2097: Avari immigration to Rhudaur reaches endemic levels.  2098: Chico of Caras Galadon declares the Avaric Republic of Lorinand, with himself as Generalissimo-For-Life.  2099: A scientific study in Minas Tirith concludes that Stone Giants and Trolls have become extinct.  2100: Ithilien achieves independence.  2102: Codfish processing plant opens on Tol Morwen.  2104: King Nob the Second of Eriador promulgates the Heresy Act, which imposes an Erroneous Belief Tax on a religious sect called the Knowers.  2105: King Nob the Second is assassinated at Archet by an irate Stoor; King Happy the Second succeeds and promptly dissolves Althing.

DYNASTIC STRUGGLES PART TWO (All Years are of the Fourth Age):  2184: Nanukiel, Princess of Eriador, marries Momo, the Prince of Dunland.  2190: Momo is reluctantly anointed King Momendil of Eriador-Dunland, of the House of Butterbur-Tharbadi.  2192: Admiral Kazombus of the New Lands visits Pelargir; he gets directions to Orcadia and sails on.  2193: Real estate agents attempt to buy Harlindon from the Hobbits; they are tarred and feathered.  2196: A variety of Living-Stonism, called Khamulism, begins in Umbar.  2200: Khamulism and Knowerism vie with each other as the predominant faith of Khand.  2207: Mithril is discovered on Tol Fuin by a Dwarf; First Mithril Rush.  2210: Tol Fuin is towed to Aman by Osse, at the request of Ulmo.  2212: Mithril is discovered on the Great North Cape by Dwarves; Second Mithril Rush.  2213: The Great North Cape becomes heavily populated, despite its foul weather.  2220: Annuminas is found to be majority Lossoth in population.  2225: Shamoondil, son of Momendil, dies suddenly of sunburn. Succession Crisis: Golfkhadi of Gram, a third cousin, becomes King of Eriador. Swarthi of Ostin, another third cousin, becomes King of Dunland.  2227: Golfkhadi proclaims that Dwarves and Hobbits are edible; he is deposed. Ruben of Minhiriath, his second cousin, becomes King of Eriador. 

RAILROAD TIMELINE FOR THE FOURTH AGE:  2292: Axel the Black Dwarf demonstrates his perfected Mobile Steam Engine on a small circular track in downtown Umbar City.  2293-2296: The first railroad on Arda, the Corsair Line, is constructed between Umbar City and Provincetown on the tip of Cape Umbar.  2298: Dwarves begin to flock to Umbar to attend Axel's Railroad School.  2301-2308: The Southron Star, the first long railroad line, is built between Umbar and Dol Earnil in Harondor.  2306-2308: Construction of first railway bridge over the Harnen.  2310-2315: The Pelargir Express connects Dol Earnil and Pelargir, via Haudh-In-Gwanur.  2319: Queen Hilarien of Gondor publishes "The Role of Railroads."  2321-2326: The Moria-Mirthwood Line is built by Dwarf entrepreneurs Hufin and Pufin; it links the Moria Eastgate with Rhosgobel.  2323-2324: The Span of the Valar is built across the Anduin.  2326-2330: Durin's Depot, on the west side of the Span, grows into a large town overnight.  2327-2329: Rails laid between Pelargir and Minas Tirith.  2328-2335: The Calenardhon Choo-Choo Line connects Isengard and Minas Tirith.  2330-2338: The ambitious Cape to Carn Dum Express is completed by the Northern Dwarves.  2336: Boo-Boo of Lorinand writes "The Environmental Impact of the Iron Oliphaunt on Mallorn Trees."  2341-2348: The Quendi Commuter Line is built between Rivendell and the Grey Havens.  2342-2354: The Living-Stone Railway connects Umbar with Minas Timbuc.

FOURTH AGE RAILROADS PART THREE:  2391:  The North Anduin and South Anduin Lines connect at Gladdenfield; the Mithril Spike is driven. Avari coolie labor has been instrumental in their construction.  2393: The Iron Hills Immigrant Line, between Dol Engren and Esgaroth, is completed.  2395: Swansong Spur Line to Dol Amroth is finished.  2400: The Empty Lands Monorail connects Druadan Forest with Winyalonde.  2417: A projected railroad to the Moon is scrapped by Hufen & Sons after an unfavorable Feasability Study. 2475: The Great Railroad Strike of Edhellond; King Skabros  the Third uses pinkertoniels to break it up.  2499: Cirdan invents the jalopy, to prevent the railroad from coming to Forlindon.  2499: Famous Stoor author Zippy Doodah publishes his countercultural novel "Riding the Lonely Rails of Middle Earth."  2504-2605: The Trans-Orocarni Railway, the longest railroad on Arda, links Winyalonde with Last Desert Depot.  3401-3406: Utumno Archeological Spur Line Constructed. 

FOURTH AGE REINTEGRATED KINGDOM PART TWO:  3334: A simulated Orodruin bursts into flame.  3336: Alatar and Pallando lead their Talking Ape Cavalry into Ithilien; Lug Wainrider is defeated at the Battle of Henneth Annun.  3336-3337: The Blue Wizards lay siege to Minas Tirith.  3337: Olorin appears on the back of Thorondor the Eagle; he breaks the staffs of the Blue Wizards and places them under arrest. Before he leaves, he predicts the imminent coming of Eru.  3339: Emperor Barth dies; Lug ascends the throne as first of the House of Hobbitsburg-Rhun.  3389: King Donald Halfdwarven marries Mindy, daughter of Emperor Joaquin.  3393: Donald the Delver becomes Emperor, and brings Gondor back into the fold; the Reintegrated Kingdom begins.  3395: The Archeologists' Guild gains ascendancy in Minas Tirith.  3400: The Archeologists find another Balrog in Moria; it surrenders and is granted amnesty.  3403: The Archeologists hatch Dragon Eggs on the Withered Heath; Dale and Esgaroth are devastated.  3406: At the advice of the Archeologists' Guild, King Donald establishes diplomatic relations with Orcadia.  3407: Gaiko of the Last Desert marries Shirley, daughter of Donald.  3408: Archeologists attempt to breed Hobbits with Ents; they are tarred and feathered.  3409: Orc ambassadors arrive at Pelargir; they burn the city down.  3411: Donald dies; accession of King Gaiko the Last.  3412: King Gaiko sends the Archeologists to Utumno, to investigate.  3413: The Archeologists unearth Gilthrang, who kills them; the coming of Eru.  3416: Ea is merged into the Consensus Universe; King Gaiko abdicates.

HANG ON TO YOUR HATS!  IT'S THE COMPLETE KING-LIST OF THE REUNITED KINGDOM, SHOWING ALL TWELVE DYNASTIES AND THE REGNAL YEARS OF ALL SIXTY-FIVE MONARCHS!  (All years, except for Elessar's accession date, are of the Fourth Age):  HOUSE OF TELCONTAR:  1.) Elessar (Third Age 3019 - Fourth Age 120);  2.) Eldarion (120-220);  3.) Valandil (220-305);  4.) Ancalime (305-370); she married Bregolas of Ithilien.  HOUSE OF ECTHELION:  5.) Astaldo (370-416);  6.) Asturion (416-423);  7.) Ariel (423-437); she married Eohippas of Eastfold.  HOUSE OF EASTFOLD:  8.) Aragram (437-460);  9.) Arafram (460-481);  10.) Arbol (481-485);  11.) Artavir (485-515);  12.) Anagram (515-537);  13.) Andirion (537-570);  14.) Telpegram (570-592);  15.) Telpefonion (592-613);  16.) Internesse (613-636);  17.) Emiel (636-678); she married Boris, Baron Wilderland.  HOUSE OF RHOVANION:  18.) Fergon (678-688);  19.) Maurion (688-705);  20.) Calamar (705-721);  21.) Borabor (721-743);  22.) Manogan (743-772);  23.)  Ludomer (772-795);  24.) Redon (795-808);  25.) Marcimer (808-840);  26.) Itermon (840-862);  27.) Genebald (862-885);  28.) Adoram (885-923);  29) Lender I (923-936);  30.) Bender I (936-959);  31.) Blender (959-989);  32.) Bender II (989-1007);  33.) Lender II (1007-1031);  34.) Bender III (1031-1059);  35.) Bendida (1059-1091); she married Prince Berdi On-Ariel of Anorien. 

The Knowers assert that all Good Souls of the Speaking Kindreds, whether Elves, or Men, or Dwarves, or Hobbits, or Ents, will join in the Second Music of Iluvatar after Ea has passed away.  In this interpretation they are much kinder than Orthodoxy, which purports not to know.  The Knowers further say that Arda is doomed to destruction, being part of the Physical Universe, which will completely pass away at the End of All Things.  Only Aman the Blessed, and places like it, will persist beyond the End of Ea.  Although it is presently a hidden dimension of the Universe, it will be conveyed to the Halls of Time before the End and thus will perish never.  This much is true, that Aman presently has no need of the Sun or the Moon, as you do.  For after the Last Change at the end of the Fourth Age, the Two Trees were restored to us.  Earendil was called down from the sky, and Aule and Ulmo brought the other two of the Three of our salvation. For the Silmarils were brought back to us, beyond all hope. Yavanna used them in the restoration of the Two Trees, and she contrived to do this without the breaking of the Holy Jewels.  Now the Silmarils are suspended in the air above the Two Trees, through the agency of Manwe, so that all who wish to see them may reverence them; I saw them just yesterday.  At the End of Ea, all of the Unworthy Souls will be put into a New Universe to start from scratch; but this will not be the concern of the Righteous who will be in the Timeless Halls with Iluvatar, enjoying perfect bliss.  And perchance Aman the Blessed will be there too, long after the last Black Hole pops in the expiring Universe.  Manwe will give neither yea or nay on any of this, but he says that the Knowers make him smile.  He tells me to trust in the Wisdom and Mercy of Iluvatar.  And this is sound advice.  There are some amongst the Hobbits here in Aman who are Knowers, and some amongst the Avari as well.  This is how I know what they currently believe.