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Thread: Messages from Celeborn in Aman

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Here are the writings of Celeborn, first posted in the thread Celeborn Appreciation Society.

Celeborn, feel free to re-post your writings in this thread, that way you can edit your text as you please. I will just remove the quotes from this post if you do. Happy Elf Smilie

The original posts that were edited 8th november, have also been updated here.. 

Thank you, my friends, for caring. Galadriel and I are happier than ever in Aman, reunited with our family and friends. The unpleasant events in Middle Earth put a strain on our relationship, we're just fine now. I have become fast friends with Manwe, he gives me stories of the Ainur I can't find anywhere else. And I recently met an Old Being near the Halls of Mandos who gave me philosophical Food For Thought. Been doing some gardening recently, the Entwives are helping out. Galadriel's been on me to write my memoirs, I'm trying to get in the mood. All the Ents are here, all the Dwarves, even all the Hobbits are here now, in a special place in Aman that doesn't tax their health. Of course, almost all of the Elves are here now, except for some Avari who opted to become Finns. I hear they have a good healthcare system in Finland. I think Tolkien and the Movie both gave me short-shrift, but I'm used to that. The little dust-up with Gimli was greatly exaggerated, we were fast friends before he finally went to the Halls of Mandos. I am so pleased and happy there's an appreciation society for me. About bloody time, I say! Oh well, that's it for now. Aman is pure bliss, what can I say? Galadriel says hi! The internet is all the rage in Aman now, I'll be communicating again soon. Cheers. Sent by Celeborn from Valmar on 31 Narquelie, Eighth Age 2006. The blessings of Eru upon you.Thank you, my friends, for caring. Galadriel and I are happier than ever in Aman, reunited with our family and friends. The unpleasant events in Middle Earth put a strain on our relationship, we're just fine now. I have become fast friends with Manwe, he gives me stories of the Ainur I can't find anywhere else. And I recently met an Old Being near the Halls of Mandos who gave me philosophical Food For Thought. Been doing some gardening recently, the Entwives are helping out. Galadriel's been on me to write my memoirs, I'm trying to get in the mood. All the Ents are here, all the Dwarves, even all the Hobbits are here now, in a special place in Aman that doesn't tax their health. Of course, almost all of the Elves are here now, except for some Avari who opted to become Finns. I hear they have a good healthcare system in Finland. I think Tolkien and the Movie both gave me short-shrift, but I'm used to that. The little dust-up with Gimli was greatly exaggerated, we were fast friends before he finally went to the Halls of Mandos. I am so pleased and happy there's an appreciation society for me. About bloody time, I say! Oh well, that's it for now. Aman is pure bliss, what can I say? Galadriel says hi! The internet is all the rage in Aman now, I'll be communicating again soon. Cheers. Sent by Celeborn from Valmar on 31 Narquelie, Eighth Age 2006. The blessings of Eru upon you.


Both of my lineages mentioned by Tolkien are correct, he just got confused. It is my father's lineage and my mother's lineage. Of course they're different, I should hope so!


Well, I went back and checked on what is recorded about my family in the Writings of Men, and it is very badly muddled. So now I will set the record straight. First off the bat, Elmo was Elwe and Olwe's cousin, not their brother; he was also Elwe's best friend. He was Cirdan's younger brother. Elmo married Gilwen, the daughter of Ina, the son of Tata, an Original Elf.  Finwe and Elwe and Olwe were NOT Original Elves, their grandfathers were. Finwe was the son of Ingold, the son of Tata, an Original Elf. Elwe and Olwe were the sons of Nelwe, the son of Kyalpa, an Original Elf. Elmo and Cirdan were the sons of Nelmo, the son of Kyalpa. In 1075 AT (Age of the Trees), Mina, Vanwe, Tata, Ingold, Kyalpa, Nelwe and Nelmo went to treat with Melkor. Of course they never came back. We fear that we had many Orc relatives at one time. My mother, rest her fea, was Telperien, daughter of  Oropher, son of Lenwe, son of Kyalpa, an Original Elf; she was Thranduil's sister. Galadhon, the son of Elmo, was my father. My father met my mother in Ossiriand and fell in love. Galadhon and Telperien accompanied Cirdan to Eressea on a visit and decided to stay. Later they moved to Alqualonde, and I grew up in that fair city. There I also met Galadriel when she came on a visit, and we were married in that same place. Shortly after the Kinstrife, my parents, Galadriel and I all emigrated to Doriath, where we lived in peace for many years. Tragically, my parents were killed in the storming of Doriath by Morgoth's forces. We then lived at Lake Nenuial in Eriador. After helping Gil-Galad set up his kingdom in Lindon, Galadriel and I moved to Eregion. After that, we relocated to Lothlorien. And the rest, as they say, is History! Tolkien meant well, but he was much better with Mannish genealogies than he was with Elvish ones. I hope this has cleared up some of the confusion.


The War to Save the Elves took place specifically because the Valar learned that Melkor was using the Avari as genetic material to create the Orcs. The first Orcs were conceived in vitro and brought to term in the wombs of their biological mothers, Talking Apes of the Dark Lands. The most important Elves captured by Melkor were Mina, Tata, Kyalpa, and their sons. Kyalpa was my ancestor. The Valar learned that it was Melkor's intent to use all of the Elves for this purpose. This was deemed a great and vile blasphemy, and led to Melkor's capture and imprisonment by the Valar. In the previous note, I forgot to mention my beloved daughter Celebrian, who lives next door to me now. She married Elrond, and her children were Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen. Elladan and Elrohir are here; Arwen became mortal when she married Aragorn and has passed away. This was very painful to our entire family, but I guess it was necessary. After the Last Change, the Children of Eldarion mixed with the Children of Adam to produce the Proto Indo-Europeans, among others. As I recollect, Galadriel did not go to Lindon, she moved to Lothlorien when Celebrimbor took over in Eregion. It was I who took two of the Three Rings to Gil-Galad in Lindon. I returned with Elrond to fight Sauron at the Fords of the Glanduin. The First Council was held at Imladris after Sauron's defeat; Elrond received a Ring. 


My father Galadhon, rest his fea, always stubbornly maintained that Elwe and Olwe were Original Elves. I did not learn the truth until I talked to Manwe in Aman. He explained that the early Elves were furious with their forebears for being stupid enough to trust Melkor, and struck their names off their records entirely. They also did not want to acknowledge that they were in any way related to certain high-placed Orcs, albeit distantly. My father and mother were second cousins, and eyebrows were raised when they were married; but this was not forbidden, although rare. I suppose my father became embarrassed, and sought to cover it up in his later years.


I did not begin as a particularly influential or high-placed Elf. Just the son of Cirdan's nephew, that's all, and the first cousin twice removed of Elwe. Galadriel loves me for my Mind!


My parents were not killed by Orcs, though they might well have been. During the Invasion of Doriath, a Dragon crashed into a row of houses. My parents were struck by flying masonry and killed; I saw it happen. My grandfather Elmo, on the other hand, was killed by Orcs. My father was raised by his uncle Cirdan.


Cirdan recently told me that the worst thing about fighting Orcs in the earliest days was that you would quite frequently see ones who looked related to you. They were no less ugly and vicious than the other Orcs, and showed no signs of recognition, but Cirdan said he had to steel himself to kill them. After Melkor's capture, Sauron carried on his work in Angband. He continued to use captured Elves for breeding for a while, but the Orcs proliferated fearsomely. Sauron lost interest in Elves, and became a fanatic of crossing Dwarves with Orcs. He mainly used Elves as food after that. Sauron single-handedly drove many of the Dwarf Kindreds into practical extinction with his ardent passion for breeding Dwarves and Orcs. Cirdan says that no one can have any idea how terrible those days were. He looks young now, but he was prematurely aged in Middle Earth.


I also had a brother, Galathil, who was killed in the Beleriand Wars. He was the father of Nimloth, who was the mother of Elwing. Legolas is my first cousin on my mother's side.


I did not care at all that I never got one of the Three Rings, by the way. I am a Telerin Elf, and that was Noldor nonsense! I never liked those Three Rings, though they were supposed to be good. That perfect fool Celebrimbor used lore obtained from Sauron to make them, so how good could they be? Celebrimbor was a brilliant craftsman, the best since Feanor, but he was a naive idiot about most things else. He had a distressing crush on my wife. He fawned all over "Annatar" when he was there; my wife was smart enough to suspect he was Sauron from the word get-go. "No, no, Sauron is dead!" said Annnatar. Yeah, right! I was all for throwing those things away, but my wife said no. Instead I had to hike across Eriador and give them to Gil-Galad. I was very uncomfortable having them in my pouch, I gave them to Gil-Galad with great relief. I told him to throw them into the Sea, he said no. Eriador was full of thorns in those days. When I passed through what later became the Shire, I was pricked unmercifully when I tried to gather blackberries. Why should I like Celebrimbor? He defeated me in the King Elections, but I didn't care at that point. Things were going to Utumno anyways. He ended up being carried around on a stick by Orcs.


I am part Noldorin, by the way; I suppose that's why I have always been able to talk to Those People!  The mother of my father was a Noldo; she was Gilwen, daughter of Ina, son of Tata, an Original Elf.  Galadriel is my second cousin, by the way; Gilwen and Finwe were first cousins.  But Galadriel and I didn't care, and no one else does these days either.  My parents were also second cousins from different Teleri branches, they did catch a bit of Utumno over it.  My father tried to cover it up in Doriath, though no one cared but him.  I was fed misinformation when I was young.  But no one said a word when Galadriel and I were married; my dad looked a bit green, that's all.  Just look at the English Royal Family, second cousin marriages are almost the norm!  So what's the big deal?


The silliest story of all, and I don't know how this one got started, is that Amroth was my son. He was my mother's first cousin, he was older than me! He often told me that I was like a son to him. Now knock it off about my family, folks! So annoying!


Here's some interesting history that I deem you're unaware of.  Remember those two missing Blue Wizards, Alatar and Pallando?  Well, they showed up in Fourth Age 3333 and occupied Gorgoroth (the big copy-cats!).  They began to cause serious trouble for Gondor; they had to use Talking Apes for their Army, because the Orcs wouldn't play any more.  Olorin himself had to come back to Middle Earth to save the day. He broke the staffs of Alatar and Pallando, and placed them under arrest.  When King Berak of Gondor asked him what would happen if Gilthrang showed up, Olorin gave him a dark look and said: "In that case, Eru Himself will come. You better hope that doesn't happen! I'm not coming back for a while." Then Top Elder Entwistle of the Knowers asked him if he was the Son of Iluvatar. Olorin said "Uh, no, no! Of course not! What an idea!" and hurried off. But some think he was just protecting his Secret Identity

wow lol.....Big Smile Smilie I like his idea on Celeborn's lineage. Up till now I have never thought of accepting both.

Here is a Chronicle of the Doings of Galadriel and myself in Middle Earth for the Curious:  Year of the Sun 506: Sons of Feanor sack Menegroth.  507: Celeborn and Galadriel take Elwing to the Mouths of the Sirion, then return. Galadhon becomes the Last King of Doriath.  512: The forces of Morgoth occupy Doriath and enter the Menegroth area. Galadhon shoots a Dragon with a crossbow; but the Dragon collapses on the building containing Galadhon and Telperien, killing them both. Celeborn and Galadriel flee to Lake Nenuial in Eriador.  545: The Host of the Valar arrives in Beleriand; Morgoth withdraws his forces from Doriath to Dor-Daedeloth.  545-587: The War of Wrath; during this time period, Beleriand is completely destroyed and sinks under the Sea.  545-548: All Elves in Beleriand join Celeborn and Galadriel at Nenuial.  550: All Atani move to Nenuial.  587: Morgoth captured by the Valar.  590: Morgoth cast into the Void.  Second Age 1: The deaths of Maedhros and Maglor. The Elves move into Lindon; Gil-Galad becomes King of that place.  2: Sauron meets Eonwe at Grey Havens; when asked to surrender, he escapes.  3: The last of the Valar Host departs; Sauron in the northernmost reaches of the Blue Mountains.  4: Sauron goes to Forodwaith until SA 500.  5: Celeborn and Galadriel return to Nenuial.  32: Atani leave Lindon and go to Numenor.  40: Many Dwarves leave the Blue Mountains and go to Moria.  375: Celebrian born at Nenuial.  442: Elros dies in Numenor.  500: Sauron awakens; after a visit to Gundabad, he goes to Amon Lanc (later known as Dol Guldur).  600: Veantur of Numenor visits the coasts of Middle Earth.

CELEBORN AND GALADRIEL TIMELINE PART TWO:  Second Age 700: Celeborn and Galadriel move to Eregion. 750: Ost-In-Edhil is built.  775: Sauron establishes effective control over Rhun.  1000: Sauron first goes to Mordor.  1200: Sauron comes to Eregion, using the alias of Annatar.  1375: Celebrimbor deposes Celeborn.  1500: Sauron leaves Eregion and returns to Mordor; Barad-Dur is begun. Elves begin the forging of the Three Rings.  1590: The Three Rings are completed.  1600: Sauron forges the One Ring; Barad-Dur is completed.  1693: Galadriel moves to Lorien with Celebrian. Celeborn takes two of the Three Rings to Gil-Galad in Lindon; he returns to Eregion.  1695-1701: The War of Eriador.  1695: Sauron's forces pass through the Gap of Rohan. Gil-Galad sends an army under Elrond to help Celeborn.  1695-1697: Sauron practically wipes out the Pukel-Men south of the Isen; the survivors flee to Druadan Forest.  1697: Sauron defeats the Elves at the battle of Glanduin Ford. Ost-In-Edhil destroyed; Celebrimbor is killed. Sauron defeats the Elves again at Swanfleet; Elrond founds Imladris in the North. 1697-1700: Sauron overruns Eriador.  1700: The Numenoreans send a fleet to aid Gil-Galad. Sauron defeated at Grey Havens.  1701: Sauron's army is destroyed at the Battles of Sarn Ford, Tharbad, and Imladris. Sauron flees to Mordor.  1702: Galadriel and Celebrian join Celeborn. The First Council is held in Imladris; Elrond receives one of the Three Rings.

CELEBORN AND GALADRIEL TIMELINE PART THREE:  Second Age 1703-Third Age 109: Celeborn and Galadriel dwell in Edhellond.  Second Age 2250: Ringwraiths first appear.  2280: Umbar built.  2350: Pelargir built.  3255: Ar-Pharazon usurps the Crown of Numenor.  3262: Sauron taken as prisoner to Numenor.  3319: Numenor destroyed.  3320: Arnor and Gondor founded; Sauron returns to Mordor.  3429: Sauron takes Minas Ithil.  3434: Battle of Dagorlad.  3434-3441: The Siege of Barad-dur.  3441: Sauron passes away temporarily; Isuldur takes the One Ring.  Third Age 2: The Battle of Gladden Fields: Isuldur is killed and the One Ring is lost.  109: Elrond marries Celebrian.  109-1981: Celeborn and Galadriel dwell in Rivendell (Imladris).  1981: Amroth drowns. Celeborn and Galadriel begin to rule in Lothlorien.

A TALE OF ANCIENT DAYS:  In the Fourth Age of Arda, there lived a fisherman who bore the name of Jehan Ramonion.  He lived in the fishing village of Lighthouse, on the shores of Minhiriath.  He was descended from a younger son of Top Elder Eremon, who had had many wives.  All in his family were fishermen, and had been for Ages.  One cloudy day, Jehan and four friends went sailing up to the North Banks, where the codfishing was good.  They had caught a goodly amount of fish, when a sudden storm sprang up.  Their ship struck a rock, and the fishermen found themselves stranded on the lonely isle of Himling.  When the weather cleared up they built a fire, hoping the smoke would attract rescuers.  It wasn't too long before a large brig hove to, and a boat came ashore.  But the fishermen's joy turned to horror when they realized they had been picked up by a Lossoth slave-ship.  They were brought in front of the captain, who inspected their teeth.  "You are going to be sold in Enedwaith," he announced in atrocious Westron.  When he came up to Jehan, he saw the godkin hanging from the leather thong on his neck.  He snatched it off rudely.  "A Knower!" he sneered.  "Well, you'll not be spreading that nonsense amongst my cargo!  You'll be beaten if you try!"  Then the fishermen were chained below-decks with the other slaves, of whom there were many.

ANCIENT DAYS PART TWO:  The slave-ship sailed south for many days.  Off the mouth of the Brandywine, it was fired upon and boarded by Dunlending pirates.  In an instant the slavers had become slaves, and were chained up with the rest in the hold of the pirate ship.  "Where are you taking us?" cried Jehan to the pirate who chained him.  But the pirate just laughed and walked away.  Then began a voyage that seemed to have no end.  Jehan's four friends died and were thrown overboard.  Jehan sickened, but did not die.  After a long hellish time, the pirate ship hove to at the labyrinthine docks of Umbar in the far south.  There Jehan was delivered into the hands of a slave merchant.  "What is your name?" the bald black man asked him.  "I can't remember," said Jehan in a daze.  The pirate master glanced at the Lossoth ship's manifest and said "His name is Himling."  But the pirate read wrong, for the Forocheli slaver had merely noted the place of capture.  So it befell that Jehan went by this name in the south, for he had no desire to tell the strangers of his real origins.  Burly stevedores now muscled him to a small cell in a warehouse, and he was given mouldy bread and water for his supper.  He fell into a dark, dreamless sleep.  The next day, he was put on the auction block in the main bazaar of Umbar City.

ANCIENT DAYS PART THREE:  He was bought by a wealthy planter of Near Harad and taken to his vast estates outside the city of Sham.  "Work hard!" shouted Bub Yusud. "Or I shall sell you to the Variags, and they will turn you inside out!"  Himling toiled with energy in the sorghum fields, but got no pay.  Every fifth day he rested, for the Faith of the Living Stone decreed so.  On one of these rest days he met a slave-woman named Sheena, who had been a princess in Minas Timbuc in the Heats of the South.  He took her to wife, and she bore him a daughter named Zali.  While they worked in the fields, Himling told Zali about his life in Minhiriath.  He taught her about the Knowers and about the Wide World.  But one day a strange fly bit Himling; he fell asleep and never woke up again.  Sheena and Zali were sold to a rich man in the city of Sham; Zali was twenty years of age at this time.  They worked in the man's household.  On a certain day, the rich man tried to take liberties with Zali; she picked up a vase and knocked him unconscious.  The next day, she was loaded onto an oxcart and taken to the market of Umbar.  Zali hoped that she would be sold to a kind new master, but fate took a strange twist.  As luck would have it, Orc Ambassadors from Orcadia were in the market that day, looking for slaves to present as a gift to the King of Gondor.

ANCIENT DAYS PART FOUR:  The rich man's overseer cruelly sold her to the Orcs, thinking she would surely be eaten; and so Zali thought as well.  "Will you eat me?" she demanded of the leering, sallow Orc manhandling her to the black-sailed ship.  "Nay!" laughed the Orc. "You are to be a gift for Gonda royalty.  Perhaps they will eat you!"  The foul-smelling Orc ship sailed for a number of days.  Zali said little to the other forty-nine slaves huddled in the grisly hold.  Then one day, they docked at Pelargir.  King Arbiter of Gondor recoiled in horror when he saw what the Orcs had brought him.  "Slavery has been outlawed in Gondor since the days of Elessar and before!" he said sternly.  "These slaves are free.  We will not treat with thee; thy embassy is rejected. Now get thee hence!"  The Orcs departed in great anger, screaming imprecations and threats of war; but they lived on the other side of the world, so Arbiter feared not much.  With him that day as a guest was Agaric the Impulsive, King of Eriador and a recent widower.  He marked Zali  amongst the cheering ex-slaves and approached her.  "I am King Agaric of Eriador," he told her. "What is thy name?"  "I am Zali of Near Harad," she replied, curtseying nicely.  "Pleased to meet you." 

ANCIENT DAYS PART FIVE:  Agaric fell to his knee and said "Marry me and I will shower you with gold and precious jewels!"  Zali thought for a moment, and answered "Eh, why not!"  They were married that day in Pelargir, and Agaric forthwith conveyed her to his palace in Bree-Town, amidst great pomp and splendor.  There Zali met Asphodel, Agaric's daughter from his previous marriage, with whom she did not get along.  After a year had passed, Zali delivered to Agaric a son who was named Bottle; this was from the Haradi word "botul," which meant "warrior."  Things seemed idyllic; but it wasn't too long before Agaric and Zali quarreled, whereupon he impulsively divorced her.  She was given a treasure chest filled with gold and precious gems, and a pleasure yacht.  Straightaway and with joy Zali took her leave of King Agaric, taking Bottle with her.  She sailed with the south wind to the old port of Umbar.  Prince Jebus, the son of the king of that land, saw her fair ship docking.  "Who is it that comes in such glory from the Inscrutable North?" he exclaimed.  He invited Zali back to the palace, and they were married that day.  Zali went forthwith to the house of the rich man in Sham.  "Who are you?" he said.  Zali struck him on the head with a vase, and he said "Ah!"

ANCIENT DAYS PART SIX:  Zali took her mother Sheena out from that place, and they lived a life of great serenity and bliss in the palace at Umbar.  Himling was reinterred under a splendid marble monument.  When Bottle became a man, King Jebus conferred upon him the Lordship of Provincetown.  Bottle had twelve sons, the eldest of whom was Bob, the general of great fame.  And descended from Bob in future generations was that Balthazzar Butterbur who sailed north in a great fleet and wrested the throne of Eriador from Abel of Andrast, in days of yore.  And from that seed also came Berak, who was King of Gondor in the Latter Days.  Here now is the Lesson of the Tale: The cold winds may blow an acorn hither and thither, but at length it will grow into a mighty oak.

As to Arwen, she did NOT meet her end alone.  Perish the thought!  I had moved to Rivendell in Fourth Age 100; but I returned to Lothlorien in FA 121 to tend to Arwen in her final illness.  Her brothers visited briefly but could not bear to stay.  They do not understand about mortal death at all.  Arwen and I were the only people there, all the Elves had left long ago. Eldarion came to visit his mother before the end.   When she died shortly thereafter, I buried her.  I cried bitterly for the death of my grand-daughter, cursing her decision to become mortal. 15,000 years have not erased the pain of it.  After her passing, Middle Earth held no more joy for me; but I reluctantly stayed on for a while, to advise King Eldarion.  When Eldarion died in FA 220, there was no compelling reason for me to stay any more.  In 222, I shook the dust of Middle Earth off my feet and returned to Aman, the place of my birth; Elladan and Elrohir came with me.  Thranduil followed in FA 230 (he had never been here before!).  Cirdan stayed on until the very end of the Age, poor Elf!  But now all the Elf Kindred are here in Aman, both great and small....except for some of the Avari who opted to become Finns.  I still can't get over that!

In Fourth Age 221, I helped King Valandil root out a cult of Sauron Worshippers in Minas Tirith.  It was a sordid affair; I was glad to remove to Aman the following year.  Valandil begged me to stay, but I told him "I have a wife and daughter as you do, great-great-grandson.  I must rejoin them now."  Valandil was a good boy, polite and thoughtful like his father Eldarion.  He did very well without my help, when all was said and done.  I had to leave also because the short life-span of Men is shocking to me, even after all this time.  I was tired of burying my relatives.  Cirdan tells me that the Dark Tree ( devotees of Sauron) resurged, and was established again in Nurn in FA 2115, but that they were mainly a debating society.  I was glad when Iluvatar subsumed Ea into the Consensus Universe; the Supernatural had too much power in our little place.

The unfortunate Amroth was the son of Malgalad, the brother of Denethor and Oropher.  Malgalad was the son of Lenwe, who was the son of Kyalpa, an Original Elf.  I am the son of Galadhon, the son of Elmo, the son of Nelmo, the son of Kyalpa.  My mother Telperien, daughter of Oropher, was Amroth's cousin.  Oropher was that King of the Green-Elves who moved his people to the Narrows from Amon Lanc in Second Age 510, after Sauron started lurking there.  His brother was Denethor, who died in the Beleriand War.  His son Thranduil was fostered by Elwe in Doriath. Besides Amroth, Malgalad had another son named Amdir and a daughter named Mithrellas. Amdir's daughter Amarie married my brother Galathil, and their daughter was Nimloth, the mother of Elwing and grandmother of Elrond. My daughter Celebrian married Elrond, even though he was her first cousin twice removed. It took her a couple of thousand years to reach this decision though. My family is known for its unconventional marriages. The removedness makes up for the germaneness, I suppose. After a couple of millennia, it doesn't seem like much. Remember, Elves are not like Men, we live longer. Mithrellas married Imrazor the Numenorean, which I thought a remarkably bad match. She gave him a couple of children and left for Aman (she's here now). From her are descended the Princes of Dol Amroth.

SAURON AND GALADRIEL:  When Sauron, disguised as Annatar, first came to Ost-In-Edhil, he pleaded in front of my Council to be allowed to stay to aid in the rebuilding of Middle Earth.  But Galadriel regarded him coldly, for she had had a dubious report from Gil-Galad concerning him. " I do not recall an Annatar being mentioned to me as serving in the retinue of Aule of Aman ," she said to him, watching him closely.  Annatar looked surprised, and said  "I am in the service of Aule. You cannot know the names of all who are with him."  "But Sauron....." began Galadriel.  "Oh shame!" shouted Annatar.  "But Sauron" continued Galadriel, "escaped from the Judgement of the Valar. How do we know that you're not him?  I detect a familiar lilt in your voice."  Annatar frowned and said  "Sauron fell into the depths of the earth and was destroyed!  You saw this!"  "And did you?" said Galadriel, raising her eyebrow.  Sauron sighed and said  "I was in Aule's train at that time, though in a different form.  May we move on?"  "Maiar do not die," persisted Galadriel.  Annatar glared at her and said  "His fana sank to the depths of the earth and was consumed in the furnaces therein.  His spirit resides with Morgoth now, in the Void!  I have determined this!"  "Nay!" said Galadriel.  "There is no way you could know that!"  Then Annatar arose in anger and said   "Elf-woman, you falsely accuse an Ainu of the Timeless Halls!  I know of Sauron's fate!  Do you call me a liar?"  Galadriel rose in her turn and said  "What I call you is my concern."  She then strode from the Council Room in great anger.  No one said a word at first.  Then Celebrimbor hissed in my ear "Let him stay.  He knows much!"  "Very well, Annatar," I then said.  "As long as you are sincere in your desire to help the Elves, you may stay for the nonce.  But if you cause trouble of any kind, out you go!"  "I will be good as pie!"  said Annatar smiling.  But he really was Sauron, as we discovered to our great grief when it was too late. 

SAURON'S ESCAPE:  In Second Age 2, Sauron put on the fairest form he could contrive and went to seek the pardon of the Valar at the Grey Havens.   I was there to see this event.  He came from the newly-formed Great Cape in the north, where he had been hiding.  Eloquently he put forth his case to the frowning Powers, saying that he could be of great use in repairing the damage caused by Morgoth, who was now in the Void.  But Eonwe checked him, saying  "Much of the worst damage was caused by great crimes committed by yourself.  I cannot judge offenses of such overwhelming magnitude.  You must come to Aman and be judged by Manwe personally.  Perhaps you will have to spend some time in the Halls of Mandos."  But Sauron knew that if all of his trespasses were fully revealed, he would be cast into the Void after his Black Master.  Therefore he dissembled, saying  "I shall have to give that option much thought before I give my assent."  "Nay!" roared Tulkas, springing forward.  "You will leave when we leave!"  But Sauron nimbly evaded his grasp.  Dashing to the side, he stamped upon the ground he stood on; a huge fiery fissure opened beneath him, and he dropped down into it, laughing.  The fissure immediately closed up again.  Tulkas struck at the ground with his fists, meaning to tear the solid rock aside to pursue him.  But he was stayed by Aule, who beseeched him with tears in his eyes not to destroy any more of the land.  When night fell, Eonwe, Aule, Orome and Tulkas went to the top of a high mountain, where Iluvatar spoke to them.  "You have done well to defeat Melkor, and end his depredations upon Arda," He said.  "But in the course of your fight with him, you have completely destroyed half of Middle Earth.  Beleriand is no more.  For this, I am greatly displeased."  The Ainur hung their heads in shame.  "Now hear my judgement on this matter," Iluvatar continued.  "No Valar shall ever set foot in Middle Earth again, to destroy the Creation that is mine, not yours.  And an Age must pass away before I will allow even Maiar to come hither."  "Lord, what of Sauron?" cried Orome.  "It is ill indeed that Sauron has escaped," said Iluvatar.  "But if help is ever sent again, it will be Manwe who determines the form such help will take.  He did not come here for fear of ruining what he sought to preserve.  If only you had heeded his example, and sent your lesser servants to defeat Melkor.  But now the harm is done, and cannot be undone.  The Silmarils have found their long home, you have no further business here.  Conclude your affairs in Middle Earth and leave.  Among you, only Eonwe may perchance return here one day, on My errand.  I, Iluvatar, have spoken."  And the Voice of Iluvatar departed on a cold wind.

TELPERIEN AND MINASTIR:  In Second Age 1690, Tar-Telperien (named after my mother) of Numenor made a state visit to the port of Vinyalonde on the west coast of Middle Earth.  It was her intent to next visit Gil-Galad in Lindon.  But whilst in Vinyalonde, she was stabbed by a Dunlending assassin wielding a poisoned dagger, sent by Sauron.  The physicians in Numenor saved her life, but the poison robbed her of her wits; she was an invalid for the rest of her life, and never spoke another word again.  Her nephew Minastir immediately became the Regent.  Although the people of Numenor kept calling him Tar, he steadfastly refused that title until the passing of Telperien in SA 1731.  He then became the legitimate King.  But it was as Regent Minastir that he sent the Numenorean Fleet which turned the tide for the Elves in their war with Sauron (SA 1700).  However, most of the old history books refer to him as Tar-Minastir in connection with this feat. 

In Fourth Age 10, the people of Nurn showed Elessar the secret Chamber of Records of Sauron, which was hidden underground.  In this was found much valuable material, including the incomplete Memoirs of Sauron.  Elessar gave the contents of the Chamber to Cirdan, who conveyed them to Aman for the perusal of the Powers.  Manwe kindly gave me access to this material, which contains much hitherto unknown information.

OF AMON LANC:  This material is taken from the Memoirs of Sauron; the vain fool documented all of his crimes.  After visiting Gundabad in Second Age 500, Sauron was flying south in Vampire form when he perceived Amon Lanc in the distance.  Drawing near, he saw many Elf settlements at its base.  Sauron smiled, and flew to the bare summit.  From Gundabad he had brought a bag containing seeds of the Orange Poppy, with which the Orcs were wont to poison their arrows.  He scattered the seeds all over the summit; overnight they became a vast field of Orange Poppies, which poisoned the air.  Next he entered a cave near the summit and evicted an old Dwarf who lived there.  Sauron made his abode in the cave, feeding on the bats which lived in that place.  The old Dwarf reported the incident to Oropher, the son of Lenwe, King of the Green-Elves who lived at the base of the mountain.  Oropher sent a detachment of Elf soldiers to the cave, but Sauron fled deep into its recesses; they found him not.  But the soldiers found the flowers at the summit, oozing a peculiar kind of juice.  The soldiers partook of this juice and went mad.  Returning to the Elf village, they began to commit crimes and had to be killed.  In SA 510, Sauron poisoned the stream issuing from his cave with vats of the poppy-juice; the Elves depended  on this stream for drinking water.  This was intolerable.  Oropher correctly concluded that the Dark Power in the cave was beyond his ability to combat, and removed his people to the Narrows of the Forest in the north.  In SA 710, Galadriel tried to send some of her agents to Amon Lanc to investigate, but the poisonous fumes were too great for them to approach.  It wasn't until after the end of the Second Age, with Sauron's temporary passing, that the poisonous field was able to be burnt.

Elwe Singollo was a strange old duck; I, for one, could never see what Melian saw in him.  "Don't mind him!" Melian would always tell us with a wink, but we had to, because he was the King.  He was always going about telling people that he was an Original Elf, which he certainly was not.  And he loved to say that he was the only one of the Teleri who had ever seen Aman; and then my family showed up.  Elwe had just been to Aman on a brief visit, but my parents had lived there for many years.  My brother and I had actually been born there!  Galadriel didn't count to him, she was a Noldo.  But he told my parents and I to keep quiet about it, and not to bruit it about.  He was afraid that he wouldn't look good if the truth was known.  So we pretended to be Elves from Rhovanion while he was alive.  My father never said a word, yet Elwe always looked nervous when he saw him.  I suppose that's why my father was barely mentioned in The Book, although he was the last King of Doriath.  Galadriel got along splendidly with Melian, but got the cold shoulder from Elwe.  He never did like Noldor.  He always told me that I looked like his "brother" Elmo, who was my grandfather.  But Elmo was his cousin.  See, he always twisted things around, I don't know why.  He had always been bitter that his real brother, Olwe, had gone off to Aman without him; I think he subsequently deputized Elmo to take his place.  Olwe tells me that he was never very close to his brother.  My father was always terrified that Elwe would blurt out that his wife, Telperien, was also his second cousin.  My father was very sensitive on this subject, having endured some ribbing in Alqualonde from his peers.  Well, Elwe was a very intelligent Elf, in spite of his minor drawbacks; we were all shocked when he came to his terrible end.  I wouldn't speak to a Dwarf for years afterwards. The Dwarves of Nogrod also killed my brother, by the way. I realize they were bad apples, but is it any wonder that I had a problem with Dwarves for a long, long time?

Between Third Age 3005 and Third Age 3015, Bilbo Baggins of the Shire compiled his "Translations From the Elvish," comprising "The Ainulindale," "The Valaquenta," and most importantly "The Quenta Silmarillion."  These later became the main part of the Red Book, the Scriptures of the Orthodox, or Faith-Holders.  The Knowers had their own Holy Book called the Trumpa (or The Book of the Endless Dream), which was not considered canonical by the Orthodox.  At Imladris, poor Bilbo was presented with a bewildering variety of Elvish documents that were copies of the original scrolls from Beleriand, which had long ago crumbled into dust.  At times these writings were at wild variance with one another, being by many different authors.  Whenever the documents agreed, Bilbo wrote it down in his elegant Westron; Elrond helped when he could.  The Hobbit was a skillful redactor; but sometimes it happened that most of the old documents were wrong, especially when it came to Telerin history.  Most of the chroniclers had been Noldor.  The mistakes were mostly minor, of the sort that only an old Kyelpo like me would notice.  But when I ventured to correct them in the reign of Eldarion, the clergy of Gondor bristled.  The Red Book had already become written in stone, so to speak.  Thus does tradition often supercede the truth.  The leading Elves of the Third Age (except sometimes Elrond), were little interested in what Bilbo wrote, since they intended to leave Middle Earth soon anyway.  When they returned to Aman, they took the original writings with them.  They placed them in the Library at Valmar, where I can see them to this day.  Bilbo's accompishment was huge, because otherwise the doings of the Elves in the Ancient Days, and much else, would have been lost to Middle Earth; but they would have been anyway, if not for the Don Prophet of the Eighth Age.  It is whispered amongst the Elves of Aman that he was the reincarnation of Earendil, and that he was given Special Revelation by Iluvatar; Manwe does not gainsay this.  Whenever I have detected factual errors in the Received Story, I have had the temerity to point them out; I was there, after all, and I have learned much from Manwe in the meantime.  But most of these discrepancies are of the minor sort, and of little interest to the Mannish reader.

When Earendil gave his Silmaril to Manwe in Fifth Age 1, he asked a boon of the King of the Valar.  Earendil and Elwing pleaded with him that they be allowed to rejoin the Wheel of Man and continue their destinies in the Consensus Universe.  Manwe and Varda interceded with Iluvatar, and this was done; Earendil and Elwing are seen no more in Aman but have had many lives in Arda, and will have many more ere the End of All Things.  It is said by the Elves that recent reincarnations of Earendil and Elwing were Professor Tolkien and his wife; but they have moved on.  Only Iluvatar knows what flesh they are in now.

THE STORY OF ELMO:  Galadhon was my father, and Elmo was my grandfather. They were mentioned but little in the Book (unjustly, I think), so I will treat of them here. Elmo was born in Cuivienen in the Year of the First Age 4557 (all dates which follow will be of the First Age); he was the younger brother of Cirdan, one year his senior (whose original name was Elman). Elmo's father was Nelwe, and his grandfather was Kyalpa, one of the Original Elves who awoke on the banks of the Lake. Kyalpa and Nelwe were amongst the prominent Elves captured in treachery by Morgoth and Sauron in 4584; they came back never again, but Morgoth told Maedhros that they were used for Orc-breeding purposes ere they died. Thus Melkor Morgoth is the murderer of my family from the very beginning of my kind. After the chief Elves were taken, Lenwe was offered the leadership of all the Quendi; but Lenwe liked this idea not at all, and deferred to Ingwe; Finwe, Elwe, and Olwe were his chief advisors. Orome found the Elves the following year, and set into motion the events which led to the Great War of 4590 to 4599; this resulted in Morgoth being captured and imprisoned in Mandos for three hundred years. After this, Ingwe, Finwe, and Elwe went on their embassy to Valinor; on their return, they urged the removal of all the Quendi to Aman. But only about half of the Elves would follow them; the ones who remained became the Avar. The hosts of the three chiefs started their westward journey in 4605, led at times by Orome. At length they came to the banks of the great river Anduin, and abode a while in the region of Rhosgobel. There Elmo wed Gilwen of the Noldor, the cousin of Finwe, in the year 4615. But the Vanyar and the Noldor proceeded without the Teleri, crossing the river and the mountains shortly thereafter. In 4616, Lenwe left the march and went southwards; he took with him his sons and his younger brother Eowa. Lenwe settled at Parth Galen, near the Falls of Rauros, where he abode long with his sons Denethor, Oropher, and Malgalad; but Eowa travelled still further south, to the lands that later became Gondor. Thence his people spread first to Eriador and finally to Beleriand; Eol of ill fate was the descendant of Eowa. But the Teleri under Elwe and Olwe resumed the westward march in 4617, and reached Beleriand in 4628. There they dwelt between the arms of the Celon and the Little Gelion. At this time the Noldor were dwelling on the Hill of Menegroth and the Vanyar were at the Havens of Sirion. Now Elwe had never had much liking for the Noldor in general, thinking them pushy and aggressive; the Noldo Mahtan in particular had upbraided him frequently on the road from Cuivienen, for his tardiness and waywardness. But he had a great friendship with Finwe, lord of the Noldor, and travelled to Menegroth frequently to seek his counsel. It was on one such journey that he entered Nan Elmoth and became enchanted by Melian; and this was in the year 4630. The friends and relatives of Elwe sought long and hard for him, but in vain. In 4649, Ulmo returned to Beleriand to convey the Teleri to Aman on the Enchanted Isle; the Vanyar and Noldor had already been taken thither in 4632. Ulmo agreed to wait for two years while a final search was made for Elwe. But this was unsuccessful, and the bulk of the Teleri under Olwe were taken to Aman in 4651. Cirdan and Elmo stayed behind to continue the search. The Teleri who stayed in Beleriand at first named themselves the Eglath (which means the Forsaken), but later were known as the Sindar. Cirdan ruled a part of them at Eglarest, while Elmo ruled the rest at Menegroth. But in 4652, Elwe went to that hill with Melian and was received with great joy by his cousin. Elwe remained in Beleriand with his Maia wife and became King Thingol of Doriath. In 4775, Gilwen gave to Elmo his son Galadhon at Menegroth, and his happiness was complete. But in 4780, Elmo was hunting deer in the region of Lake Helevorn with some friends, when he saw some shadowy figures on a ridge watching them. Elmo approached them in friendship, thinking that they were Avari Elves, perhaps the sons of Eowa. But the strangers were Orcs, the first ever seen in Beleriand. Their leader drew a crossbow from the folds of his robe and slew Elmo; then the Orcs fled. The friends of Elmo sorrowfully took his body back to Menegroth; his wife Gilwen wasted away from grief and died the following year. Galadhon was taken then to Eglarest, where he grew up under the loving tutelage of his uncle Cirdan. But in 4800, when he had grown, Galadhon returned to Doriath to serve Elwe.

Celeborn posted Monday 1st November 2010:

ON THE THEOLOGICAL FATE OF ORCS: There are no Orc-souls in the Halls of Mandos, because these souls were the Wicked of other Kindreds. The first Orc-souls escaped from Mandos during the Darkness of Ungoliant and accompanied Melkor to Angband; they were necessarily the souls of wicked Avari. Melkor incarnated these souls into Orc-flesh. The souls of wicked Dwarves and Men were also put to the same use. When they died, they were re-incarnated into new Orc-flesh. In this way, they hoped to cheat Hell. But it was not to be. After the Fall of Sauron, the vast reserve of Orcs beyond the Orocarni who had not taken part in the War were turned into Men by Eru, and suffered Man's Fate. The souls of evil Orcs who had committed crimes were put into the Halls for wicked Elves or Dwarves, according to what their souls had originally been; you can be sure their sentences were added to! As for the Orcs who had had the souls of Men, they did a stint with Morgoth in the Void, then were reincarnated on other planets, barred permanently from coming back to Earth. So you see, there is no theological problem with the Fate of Orc-souls at all. Their souls were already wicked, they were just trying to cheat Hell. In the process, they got into far worse trouble!

Incidentally, after the Earth comes to an end, the souls of wicked Elves and Dwarves (who all did a stint as Orcs) will be allowed to reincarnate on other planets and redeem themselves with other lives. Eru is nothing if not merciful and fair.


Celeborn posted Sunday 5th December 2010

In spite of the fact that the very late and definitely unlamented Eol was a distant relative of mine (some sort of cousin), the truth compels me to say that he was without a doubt a very bad Elf; his son Maeglin was an even worse one. Eol tried to kill his traitorous son in a fit of rage and accidentally killed his wife instead; for this he was thrown off a cliff by the Elves of Gondolin. It didn't help that his wife was the sister of the King. As for Maeglin, all he did was betray the entire kingdom of Gondolin to Morgoth, causing its destruction. I don't think there is any justification at all for the acts of these particular Elves. Although the Noldor sneeringly called Eol an Avari, he was actually a Telerin Elf, though we're not proud of it. Eol was the son of Eono, the son of Nimo, the son of Eowa, who was the youngest son of Kyalpa, the progenitor of all of the Telerin Elves; Kyalpa was one of the Original Elves who awoke on the banks of Cuivienen. He was one of the prominent Elves captured by Morgoth and Sauron a year before the coming of Orome. Besides Nimo, Eowa had a son named Nimwe, who was the father of the epic sleeper Nimrodel, who slept for thousands of years. She awoke and married Tyaumeinwe, a prince of the Reunited Kingdom, and became the mother of the famous Avarion; this happened well into the Fourth Age. I myself, Celeborn, am the son of Galadhon, the son of Elmo (Cirdan's younger brother), the son of Nelmo, the son of Kyalpa. So I am Eol's third cousin; but I still think he's no good. The record speaks for itself.

Celeborn posted Sunday 5th December 2010:

Sure I like Tom Bombadil, I see him now and then. He lives here in Aman now with Goldberry, in the Pastures of Yavanna. He now goes by the name of Iarwain Ben-Adar, which is the closest thing he has to a real name. Some misguided souls in your world think that he is the incarnation of Iluvatar, and he asked me to put paid to that rumor. "The very idea!" he snorted to me the other day. "I'm a Maia, not even a Vala! Where do they come up with this nonsense? Before I know it, they're going to start a Knower-like cult around me, and then I'll be embarrassed no end! Manwe bowed mockingly to me the other day and said 'Hail heavenly father!' I told him to lay off!" I asked him if he thought Olorin might be the Son of Iluvatar, and he said "How should I know? Ask him!" I did ask Olorin once. He said "Who, me?" and hurried away. Tom (or Iarwain) is incensed with the human race, because some king of Eriador or another sold the Old Forest to real estate agents about a gazillion years ago. "Goldberry and I are disgusted!" Tom railed to me. "We're never going back to that Middle Earth again!" I asked him what the Old Forest is like today. He practically turned purple. "It's called Epping Forest now, and it's a shopping center! Don't get me started!" Poor Tom! "Well at least that Old Man Willow spontaneously combusted toward the end of the Fourth Age!" Tom snickered. "I thought that old weed would never wilt!" "I hear he got a job in the diplomatic corps in the Blue Forest before he passed," I offered. "Huh, some job!" Tom sneered. "I hear he broke a king's leg in the middle of negotiations!" But Tom and Goldberry are happy now. Tom says he will write his memoirs soon ..... in rhyme.

Remember the stone slab on Amon Hen that Boromir was chasing Frodo around when he was trying to get the Ring? That was the tombstone of Lenwe, my relative, the grandfather of Thranduil. By that time, all of the Elven writing had worn off the stone. He was killed by a Flying Beast sent by Morgoth (the kind that the Nazgul later rode), while he was defending a wounded Elf-woman from the monster. His two sons then killed the Beast with a giant arbalest. This all happened in the First Age. I thought I'd mention it, since the Don Prophet saw fit not to. Nobody cares about the Telerin Elves!

There are some among the Avari here in Aman who say that the Original Elves were brought fully-grown from a Universe adjacent to Ea, which they call the Elf Universe. There Men never evolved, only Elves. They say that the Elves that Iluvatar brought to Ea were people who were about to have terrible accidents and die in their own cosmos; Iluvatar is said to have mercifully brought them here to start a new Elvish race on Arda. Some of the transportees were of royal blood, like my ancestor Kyalpa. Similarly the Original Men of Arda were brought fully-grown from your Universe, the Universe of Men. Some were Neanderthals, who became the Pukel-Men. Some were descended from the little beings on Flores Island, and these became the Hobbits. Men proper were the Cro-Magnons, of course. Thus the Sons of Eldarion and the Sons of Adam had a common origin on Earth, which is why they were later able to interbreed after the Last Change.

This is all very amusing, but it is not very convincing as fan fiction.  The idea with continuing the story of Tolkien's universe is to follow the blueprint he has given us, filling in the details of time, place, and persons, without contradicting what the Professor himself has written.  What you, Celeborn, have done is to write your own original story using the trappings of Tolkien's ME to make your writing seem legitimate.  But what you write is not really a continuation of Tolkien at all.  Those of us who teach literature would call your writing a corruption of what has been laid down as canon by the author.  And the author does have a right to some deference in this matter.

I suggest that you read some of the other fan fiction written on this site by members who have been here for some time.  This will give you the insight you will need before attempting to write something that does justice to Tolkien's legacy.


When Sauron defeated the Pukel-Men in the opening phases of the War of Eriador, many Pukel prisoners were transported to Mordor for the purpose of Orc-breeding. The admixture of this mortal blood caused a considerable shortening of the Orkish lifespan, but this was done deliberately. Sauron found that the longer Orcs lived, the more they tended to ask awkward questions amongst themselves (such as "Why are we doing this?"Wink Smilie. Also, the Pukel genes added a measure of toughness and craftiness to the Orkish makeup. Dwarves had become more scarce and harder to catch, and Elvish blood was deemed unreliable (it was invariably the Orcs of Elvish descent who asked the awkward questions).

Gandalf, though I could not agree with you more, I think that's the point. I'm pretty sure he's fully aware of his bastardizing of the Tolkien universe and that's why he does it. So in all likelihood your post only encourages him. I always use caution when throwing wood on the fire...

Keep in mind, he used to do this mostly in other threads, only recently did he start putting MOST of his writings in his own fan-fiction thread. Let's just be thankful for that...

The above is a remarkably hostile statement; if you cannot make friendly posts, please do not comment at all.


Posted Sunday 5th December 2010 (10:27pm)

It is well known in Aman that some of the Avari ultimately refused the Last Summoning of Eonwe at the end of the Fourth Age, preferring to end their days in Middle Earth and the Mortal Universe. Iluvatar then made them Men, and today they are called the Finns. Alas, they were in Middle Earth too long! They went native and eventually left the Elf Kindred altogether. The halls of Mandos know them not. But most of the Avari did heed the Summons and are here in Aman now.

Posted Sunday 5th December 2010 (10:40pm)

The Avari Elves that were captured by Morgoth were never used for anything other than Breeding Stock for the Orcs. Once their genetic possibilities were used up, so to speak, they were promptly killed and eaten. Melkor hated Elves more than anything, he would never use actual Avari for military service. He had to make something new for that. Oops, Manwe has corrected me on this. He says that Morgoth quite frequently used Noldor prisoners as slaves during the Wars, since they had great technical skill. But the Telerin prisoners had no such skill, and were eaten.

Posted Sunday 5th December 2010 (10:41pm)

The Tawarwaith (that is, the so-called Silvan Elves) were all Teleri from younger branches of the family; they had a very little Avari blood, but that was all from pre-Oromean days. The Avari proper did not enter western Middle Earth until well into the Fourth Age. They fled from the empire that Alatar was building in the East. In the middle of the Fourth Age, all remaining Teleri (mostly Tawarwaith), lived in Lindon; all of the remaining Noldor had departed long ago. But the hinterland was heavily populated by the Avari immigrants (especially in the Iron Hills). They numbered in the millions. They spoke uncouth dialects of Quendi totally unintelligible to an Elda. Most of them are now in Aman, having come West at the end of the Fourth Age. Many of them speak Sindarin as a second language.

Posted Sunday 5th December 2010 (11:14pm)

By the Trees, I had forgotten all about Morwe and Nurwe, though Cirdan spoke of them sometimes when I was a young Elf. Nurwe, by all reports, really was sad; he had lost many relatives to Morgoth. These two were also counselors to Ingwe originally, but they led the movement among some Quendi to stay behind in Cuivienen, rather than accompany Orome to Aman. These are the Avari proper. It is entirely possible that there were some Avari in western Middle Earth during the Third Age, though most entered in the Fourth. But Eol was definitely Telerin; he claimed Noldo blood from the Second (ur-Noldorin) Clan from his great-grandfather's marriage to an Avari Noldo. The Original Elves were divided into Five Kindreds. The Avari originated as the Kindreds of Morwe and Nurwe, plus such of the Noldor and Telerins who refused the call of Orome. As most of us know, the Eldar were all of the Vanyar, half of the Noldor, and a good portion of the Teleri.

Celeborn, this was the last time I move your misplaced fan fiction. In the future, misplaced posts will most likely be deleted on sight and your text will be gone. Hopefully the PM I sent you will clear things up and that we will all get along nicely from now on. Happy Elf Smilie

Also, if you do not want feedback or just a spesific form of feedback, just let me know and I will make a note in the first post of this thread. Deal Smilie

Gandalf, you are wise and good.  Once again I ask you for your help.  Tell me what  I should do to remedy this predicament and I will do it.


I am not certain what you want me to advise you about.  If you want to continue to write fan fiction, then you must obey the Council and post your writing on this thread.  If you want to write good fan fiction which complements Tolkien's own writing, then you need to do some homework first.   Study the stories posted on this site by long-time members.  See how these stories were written to disturb as little as possible of Tolkien's canon (with some exceptions) while adding to the depth and breadth of that sub-creation.  Once you have understood these parameters, I would also caution that the language level needs to at least imitate the level of Tolkien's, even if the exact mastery of this is not possible.  Then try your hand at writing a simple story involving your favorite character at a time and place not covered by Tolkien in his works.  You will be surprised with the tale that will unfold. 


I will be happy to comply with the rules, but I think I am not the one being hostile and snide here (not you, but perhaps a few who may be acting a bit like certain Barrow Wights). Please read The Story of Elmo on this site, I think the language used there is faithful to Tolkien's. I am American, perhaps some culture clash is at play here. I am sorry for the "humorous" revisionism that has not gone down well at all, I will probably print it and remove it from the site altogether, as it seems to be raising some hackles. I was thinking of sending some of this to Chris Tolkien (the most orthodox part) and getting his critique. Don't worry, I know which parts you don't like (the Fourth Age stuff), I will remove it soon, as I do not like the Galileo treatment.

I'm not sure where you're detecting the hostility in my posts Celeborn. Especially since I've already told you like 2 or 3 times in the past how funny I find your writings. If you interpret a post with the message "I think it's meant to be a joke" as being hostile, then you shouldn't be writing parodic stories.

Celeborn, we have no problem with your parodies, at all. In fact, there are  Tolkien fans who enjoy them. Our issue is the thread in which you post them. Many members look for serious discussions in threads in the discussion areas. There are some fans who are not familiar enough with the finer points of Tolkien's ME to realize that the information in your parody are not true Tolkien characterizations. As council, we feel we have a responsibility to keep the discussions in these areas as academic as possible. This is why we have moved your posts to the writers section.

I agree that any criticisms to your creations in this area should not be based on serious canon content and should be seen for what they are meant to be - humourous parody. If one finds such creations offensive, then he/she should avoid the threads that council have created for you.

Please, continue to post your creations as appropriate.

Thank you very much. I love Tolkien's work more than I can possibly say, he is by far my favorite author. I mean no disrespect at all to him with my occasional humor (?), it's all a tribute. I met him when I was a child, he was in despair because he couldn't think of enough ideas for a sequel. I remember I said "How about the Ring floats in the Earth's mantle, and Elanor digs it up in her garden?" "No, that's silly!" he said. But he smiled. He was a very nice old guy, very polite. He could barely understand my New York accent, but he tried. I have nothing against any members, Balrog, you're all decent chaps. I promise you faithfully I will confine my writings to the writer's guild, I really like Planet-Tolkien. I do not wish to bother anyone, and again, I adore Tolkien's writings, it's just an affectionate tribute. I will try to reconcile these writings to the Accepted Canon, though it may be an uphill battle. But I assure you, I read an article that said Tolkien was just getting ready to extend the Elf generations back a couple of notches, and was going to make Elmo Cirdan's brother. But then the poor man died. I am trying to follow his will with the rather revisionist Telerin genealogies, because I know he didn't want Galadriel to be Celeborn's first cousin. He was horrified when he realized what he did genealogically, and was trying to fix it when he died. He had too much detail to look after, that's all. At least you guys know what I'm talking about. Merry Christmas!      

Flash! Late-breaking news! Tom Bombadil cops to being the Flame Imperishable! "Yeah, I done it, and I'm glad!" he snarls. "I kept things Real in Middle Earth!" "He led a double-life," explains Goldberry. Film at eleven.

(...) But I assure you, I read an article that said Tolkien was just getting ready to extend the Elf generations back a couple of notches, and was going to make Elmo Cirdan's brother. But then the poor man died. I am trying to follow his will with the rather revisionist Telerin genealogies, because I know he didn't want Galadriel to be Celeborn's first cousin. He was horrified when he realized what he did genealogically, and was trying to fix it when he died. 


Can you please add where you read this, and who wrote the article?

Mr. Bombadil recently revealed that he is the Flame Imperishable, causing consternation in many quarters. The Aman Star recently interviewed Manwe about this development, and here are his reactions. "I am amazed, I am stunned! This kind of blind-sided all of us! Well, the Knowers sometimes said he might be Iluvatar, and I used to bug him about it. He's very emotional about religious issues. But this, out of the clear blue sky (have to plug myself, ha ha!). I mean, wow! Tom's the Flame Imperishable! Who'd a thunk? He's so mild-mannered. What should I do now? I mean, should I abdicate, should I let Tom rule? No, he'd go bananas if I made a suggestion like that, I know Tom! Well, he blurted it out to Celeborn, he got sick of being called a Maia. Now he's being pestered, he should have kept quiet if he was conflicted about it. Implications? I don't know, did he have something to do with that Big Bird in the other Universe? Oh this is all too much, I gotta go back to Taniquetil and have a good lay-down. Elbereth is standing around looking dazed!" And Gandalf had this to say: "It is about time that someone put paid to those silly rumors that Iluvatar had a Wife. Can you imagine if this was Islam, there'd be bloodshed! The Knowers have been passing off their speculations as Canon for years, finally they get their come-uppance! I know the ladies were desperately hoping for a Female aspect of the Godhead, but I think that the Knowers cynically exploited their understandable yearnings for their own aggrandizement. This will teach them to spread half-baked rumors! Why, they were going around saying that I am Iluvatar's Son! The cheek!" "But," replied our intrepid reporter, "now they are saying that Iluvatar is the Parent, you are the Child, and Tom's the Elder Sibling. What are your thoughts on this new theory?" "Oh, another birdbrain rumor!" snapped Gandalf. "No comment!" And he stalked off.

Mr. Galin, it was an article that came out shortly after Tolkien's death. I can no longer remember where it specifically was, but you can probably find it on the Internet. I know I read it, I'm not making it up. I will probably try to find it myself on the Internet now. I remember the author of the article specifically said that he was planning to make Elmo the brother of Cirdan and the COUSIN of Elwe and Olwe to help with the Celeborn-Galadriel consanguinity matter. It also said he was going to move the original elf generations back a couple of notches, to provide a reasonable explanation why Elwe and Olwe were brothers, which they couldn't have been if they were original elves. I think it was in a Tolkien fan publication, possibly affiliated with Glenn GoodKnight, but I am not sure.

Mr. Bombadil addressed the assembled press corps of Aman today to comment on his recent startling statement that he is the Flame Imperishable. We reproduce it here in full:  Ladies and gentlemen of the press, as has always been my custom, I have no interest in governing or ruling. I'm still the same old Tom. My only wish is to lead a quiet, happy life with Goldberry, my beloved wife of many years standing. The Flame Imperishable ...well, me ... is a very good concept. I'm just here to keep things Real, that's all. I hope that all of my old friends will not treat me differently in light of my revelation. Heck, I told you a million times I had no father, I gave you a clue. I hope this new information will not complicate the current religious status quo, since that was never my intent. Thank you, and Eru bless you all.

Mr. Galin, it was an article that came out shortly after Tolkien's death. I can no longer remember where it specifically was, but you can probably find it on the Internet. I know I read it, I'm not making it up.


I believe you read something but I'm wondering about the content and who wrote it. Unfinished Tales was published well after Tolkien's death, and Christopher Tolkien himself doesn't note these details (that I recall). Concerning which...

 (...) I remember the author of the article specifically said that he was planning to make Elmo the brother of Cirdan and the COUSIN of Elwe and Olwe to help with the Celeborn-Galadriel consanguinity matter.


Yet Christopher Tolkien records that very late in life JRRT made Celeborn and Galadriel closer than they had been when Elmo was Celeborn's grandfather. Referring to the genealogy where Elmo (as brother of Elwe and Olwe) > Galadhon > Celeborn, it's noted:

'By this genealogy Celeborn was a kinsman of Galadriel, the grand-daughter of Olwe of Alqualonde, but not so close as by that in which he became Olwe's grandson)'.

Christopher Tolkien, Unfinished Tales, The History of Galadriel and Celeborn


This text  (the text in which Celeborn and Galadriel are first cousins and Celeborn is now the grandson of Olwe not Elmo) is also characterized as: '... the last writing of my father's on the subject of Galadriel and Celeborn, and probably the last on Middle-earth and Valinor, set down in the last month of his life.'

It also said he was going to move the original elf generations back a couple of notches, to provide a reasonable explanation why Elwe and Olwe were brothers, which they couldn't have been if they were original elves. I think it was in a Tolkien fan publication, possibly affiliated with Glenn GoodKnight, but I am not sure. 


That may be, but Elwe and Olwe aren't necessarily Unbegotten Elves in the first place. If in the 1930s Tolkien imagined them as awakening (as he did with Ingwe), it wasn't public knowledge then, and from the 1950s onward it's not a given that any of the Elvish Ambassadors are part of the 144 Unbegotten.

And if the Cuivienyarna (an Elven-child's tale mingled with counting lore) is true, then the reader can arrive at the notion that Elwe and Olwe, if 'brothers' by blood at least, didn't awaken.


In any case, if you find the article please let us know, but it also seems to me that if Christopher Tolkien was aware of any of this -- and thought this information stood on firm enough ground -- he would have noted it somewhere.

Galin, here is something you may like. I have not located the article I cited yet (if it was a magazine article, I may not locate it at all). But I did find an interesting site that you may like. Go to J.R.R. Tolkien Features - The Final Genealogy on the Internet, and tell me what you think. It's an interesting site, mostly about Noldorin genealogy (very convoluted, Tolkien must have revised it a dozen times). But at the end of the article, it gives two alternate Telerin genealogies; one shows Elmo to be Elwe's brother, the other shows him to be Cirdan's brother (a possible sister of Cirdan may be Voronwe's mother). The author of the site notes that Tolkien's late decision to make Celeborn and Galadriel first cousins was not consonant with his previous statement that Elvish first cousins never married. He says that Christopher got very confused in the published Silmarillion. The reason I thought that Elwe was originally conceived of as an original Elf is because I thought he made a claim to being original to the Dwarves who killed him; re-reading the passage, he just says his life began by the waters of Cuivienen, which is ambiguous. If most people now feel he is not original, I am glad. Please read this genealogy article and tell me what you think of it.

Hmm, I've seen this article before.

But at the end of the article, it gives two alternate Telerin genealogies; one shows Elmo to be Elwe's brother, the other shows him to be Cirdan's brother (a possible sister of Cirdan may be Voronwe's mother).


Elmo as Cirdan's brother is not based on specific text however, or none that I recall anyway. Christopher Tolkien notes:

'In other late writing Círdan is said to have been of the kin of Elwe, but I have not found any statement of the nature of the kinship. '

CJRT, notes to Quendi And Eldar


So beyond this even CJRT does not go.

The author of the site notes that Tolkien's late decision to make Celeborn and Galadriel first cousins was not consonant with his previous statement that Elvish first cousins never married.


Concerning the tale of Maeglin it's said: 'And the Eldar wedded not with kin so near, nor had any before ever desired to do so'. And the following is from Laws And Customs Among The Eldar (Morgoth's Ring):

'None of the Eldar married those in direct line of descent, nor children of the same parents, nor the sister or brother of either of their parents; nor did they wed 'half-sisters' or 'half-brothers'. Since as has been shown only in the rarest events did the Eldar have second spouses, half-sister or half-brother had for them a special meaning: they used these terms when both of the parents of one child were related to both of the parents of another, as when two brothers married two sisters of another family, or a sister and a brother of one house married a brother and sister of another: things which often occurred. Otherwise 'first cousins', as we should say, might marry, but seldom did so, or desired to do so, unless one of the parents of each were far-sundered in kin.'


It might be noted that this was written within the conception (later abandoned) that Elves were reincarnated by being reborn as children, including the idea that a Reborn Spouse will not appear among the close kindred of the Living Spouse.

In consideration of the 'unstained' Galadriel tale, I add this as something I think Tolkien arguably should deal with -- in other words, considering the tale of Maeglin, the matter of first cousins marrying at least raises a question -- though to note the obvious, JRRT hadn't actually published his Silmarillion or Laws And Customs in any event 

But I digress

In any event, had Tolkien lived, I don't think he would have let the first cousin thing stand; it's highly unlikely. I thought he did it by accident, but on purpose!? Did he ever give any reason at all why he wanted them to be so closely related? He was in total control over his legendarium; I don't know why he agonized so much over some of this, he could do anything he wanted with his material. He could solve any problem with the stroke of a pen. Since there seem to be many versions of the genealogies of Celeborn and Galadriel, I think that Christopher would be justified in using the one that did the least violence to the characters of those two Elves. Both Celeborn and Galadriel are Elves of great gravitas, neither seem the type who would push Elvish custom beyond the bounds of good taste. It just doesn't fit in with what we know of them. For what sane reason would they do this? And it's so ridiculous, Tolkien could have made them the children of anybody, yet he did this with apparently no explanation. It certainly doesn't add to the story, and it's actually irritating. Do you know why he did this, please tell. But this was all unpublished material, it was STILL a work in progress! I wish the Professor had had the lifespan of Elros at least, so he could have worked all that unintegrated material into the main body of work and cleared up all the problems. There should be an International Tolkien Commission to solve these things, although anyone but a Tolkien fan would scratch their head or yawn. Even many fans would. Christopher did a great job of editing the Silmarillion, it wouldn't exist without him; but maybe future editions of that work should be amended by him, or another Tolkien, to reflect some of the most glaring inconsistencies to be found in what was then published and what was written after. The Hobbit was greatly changed. They could at least say that Celeborn was born in Aman. This would not harm the Silmarillion, and would make it more accurate. Maybe it is not attested textually, but I like the Elmo-Cirdan brothers tree the best because it preserves the honor of two of my favorite characters; and doesn't it make more logical sense? Surely J.R.R. would have changed it, had he lived.

Oh wait, weren't Queen Victoria and Prince Albert first cousins? Well, maybe royalty is different, but I don't think Celeborn and Galadriel were royalty at that time. The Spanish Hapsburgs regularly married their first cousins, and they died out after becoming extremely deformed. I think someone probably told the Professor that he couldn't do that, and he stubbornly did that to show that he could. I think, upon reflection, he would have at least put things back to the way they were, or come up with a better idea.

Unless we are to throw out a part of the published Silmarillion, I think that the story of Maeglin proves that Celeborn and Galadriel are not first cousins. It says "none before desired to do so" (that is, marry a first cousin). Yet Celeborn and Galadriel married long before the time of Maeglin. The later decision of Tolkien would nullify this, but it is a LATE revision which does not improve on the original idea, and should be ignored in favor of earlier text which makes more sense.

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