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Thread: New Races...?

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sorry hit enter...

so i was saying, how about more race's.

I would really like to be an Istari.. from far far away

but a few more maybe, and Ent from fanghorn.

An Eagle from the mountain tops.

things like that, again, sorry bout leaving the last blank..
this idea has actually already been brought forward... I am also a supporter of the idea, I think it would be a great lot of fun - the more, the better Smile Smilie (me wants some villains, but others don't like the idea that much...). but there was nothing done then (I think there was a certain reason, but I don't remember it - maybe you'll have a look at the thread, it's also in the website suggestions section), and we have to confess that it isn't the most important thing to be done...
but its gotta be one of the easiest to do...?>?
well, I don't know... I certainly couldn't do it. me and computers... Orc Smiling Smilie but it certainly also takes time to do it, and if there are lots of other things to be done, things of more importance... oh, I'm none of the bosses round here, I'm only occupying space. you better wait for a council member to tell you the facts...
btw, the other thread was called New Locations?.
ok, i'll have a look thanx...
ok so we have 14, count em, 14 new locations / races: Fangorn, Mountains, Mirkwood, Minas Tirith, Pelagrir, Dol Amroth, Fornost, Lindon, Blue Mountains, Grey Havens, Moria, Minas Morgul, Haradwaith, Umbar.

pop along to edit profile and knock yourself out - any more needed just drop me a line!
I am now a 'Person' from Minis Tirith. A PERSON???

Geanted it is a difficult one because Man or Men implies man rather than of the race of Men. Perhaps it should read '... is of the race of...'
Ahh you've found the obvious problem we need to work out a non sexist way of refering to people from Minas Tirith, Pelagrir, Dol Amroth, Fornost, Haradwaith and Umbar. Any Ideas anyone?
well i think Vee is on the right track. It maybe should say " >name< is of the race of (men, dwarves, elves...etc.). from Minas Tirith, Rivendel, Moria...etc."

What do you think?
what i was trying to achieve is a kind of mini profile which reads as a sentance rather than a series of statements as we used to have. So

xx has made xx posts is of the race of xx from xx and is Online

i don't know there's somthing awkward about it i got around it with the Dundedin and the Rohirrim by refering to them that way can we do this for the other six races. I just think it comes off a little sexist to refer to them as the races of men and i'm sure the races of men would appreciate some females members which they're not likly to get at the moment. Mind i'm thinking of developing one for Vee alone! Smile Smilie
Well, until the Goddess category becomes available I've become a Nazgul. I think my avatar is well suited to that.

Wiggle Smilie

What would you call someone from Minis Tirith? A Minis Tirithian?

Pelargir - Pelargirian

Dol Amroth - Dol Amrothian?

Sounds odd.

How about:

Fred is a descendant of Numenor from Minis Tirith?
Fred is a Numenorean from Minis Tirith?


Oh, and how about a location - Westernesse?
ok but who would you be from wester.... blah
As Tolkien had less female characters in LOTR than he had Nazgul, I think it would be okay to call humans Men, even if they are women. Failing that, call the ones from Minas Tirith etc Gondorian just as you call those from Edoras Rohirrim.
Wow, simple really.
Does anyone know the ranks of wizzard below gray, did JRT write anything about that?
White, grey, blue, brown, many-colored, and black (or uncolored). I'm unsure whether this is the proper ranking, however it would be if I ran the zoo. I don't really know if blue is higher than brown and some would put many-colored at the top of the list.

Val and Mir/Vir can probably find something more definitve in Unfinished Tales.
It all depends on what grounds this classification is made. Gandalf the Grey was perhaps least in sheer power, but highest in wisdom. Saruman the White was the most crafty one, whilst Radagast's talented were in the field of nature.

One could made a classification on who arrived first :

*Saruman came first as Chief of his order : hence white is first.

*Alatar and Pallando, the blue wizards, came second.

*Radagast the Brown came after the Blues.

*Gandalf the Grey came as last, but not as least, as he was sent by Manw’ and Varda themselves.
so why was white Gandalf's promotion, so to speak? Was it because he became chief in place of Saruman or because be became better / wiser? Is there a rank of measurable skill or simply several orders of talant?
i always thought that white was the highest colour but when Saruman went insane, Gandalf became the white (the Valar made him "white")
After Gandalf the Grey's body was destroyed, his spirit passed to the Halls of Mandos; the Valar then decided to not only send him back to finish his task, but also to make him the chief of his order considering Saruman's betrayal.

Therefor they gave him a new body, in which his power wasn't rebuked in the way it was rebuked by his old body - hence Gandalf the White was able to use more of his latent power/essence than Gandalf the Grey was. He didn't suffer from the burden of the flesh like Gandalf the Grey did; he was almost the pure Maia Olor’n, hidden under a thin human fa’ade. That's why suddenly neither Aragorn's, Gimli's or Legolas's weapons could hurt him.

It may well have been that the Maia Curumo, who was Saruman, had more power than the Maia Olor’n, but as Curumo still suffered from the burden of the flesh, he was unable to use the amount of power Gandalf the White could use, which led to his staff being broken.
interesting, it's somthing i always wondered about - thanks Miruvor.
With the exception of White, which may signify leader of the order (although I'm not convinced it even does that), colour doesn't seem to signify rank. The reason I say that is because two the five wizards were "companions" to other wizards. Radagast was sent as a companion to Saruman (at the request of Yavanna, but against Saruman's will). In this case it could be said colour could denote rank, White being higher than Brown. Pallando, however, was companion to Alatar, but both of these wizards wore blue (different shades, granted).

Maybe the colour is more to do with the wizard's nature/calling than rank. Radagast wore earthly brown, Gandalf inconspicuous unassuming grey, Saruman standing out in white....

Regarding Gandalf's transformation, I've always seen him as going from his hidden self, to a more pure, angelic form... hence white. Saruman, once leader of the Order, by then had become corrupted, and his white had become tarnished to become the Many-Coloured.
As a child I assumed that Gandalf having magically survived the battle with the balrog had somehow gained new insight power or experience and therefore gained new abilities that allowed the 'promotion' to white.

I must admit that even after this discussion I still wonder if Gandalf, despite being sent back in his new form, hadn't already found new ways to use his natural power during the battle with the balrog - despite his limited human form. It seems somehow more in keeping with what we know of Gandalf the Wise, the learner, the studier of human/hobbit/animal/dwarf/elf et al life.

Gandalf was the lighting rod in LOTR and the HOBBIT, the grounding of the fellowship the hobbits bringing the naivate the men envy, greed and conflict in equal weight to valor, honor and cunning. Talant, speed and experience belonging to the elves and dwarves. Gandalf bought the wisdom but while preiscint, still gave the impression of being a constant learner.

Why was Saruman against Radagast - what was the timeline there?
The book doesn't exactly say why. But I assume it's because Radagast was the weakest of the five Istari and Saruman could see no use for being allies with him. So he scorned old birdtamer. And besides, there's also the fact that Radagast was probably on good terms with the Ents.
You can't help wondering how long saruman was evil for, how much he knew and when. Was there a descent to evil or was there a moment when he realised (incorrectly) that his side could not win and so changed sides or if infact he noticed it happening.
Power corrupts. Saruman just looked down on Radagast, just like he looked down on Gandalf's love for the hobbits and pipeweed, even though Saruman loved pipeweed himself (remember the vats of Old Toby in Isengard).

Sauman was the most curious of the lot and delved too deeply into The Care and Feeding of Your Dark Lord'. Initially he wasn't evil, he only became that way after much study; and he like Denethor, used his Palantir to learn Sauron's secrets and so became ensnared in the machinations of that diabolical neer-do-well. At least that is my current take on it. Teacher Smilie
Initially he wasn't evil, he only became that way after much study; and he like Denethor, used his Palantir to learn Sauron's secrets and so became ensnared in the machinations of that diabolical neer-do-well.

Disagreed. I do not believe Denethor was ensnared in Sauron's web through the Palantir, as Denethor was a rightful user of the Palantir (unlike Saruman), and hence could not be decieved, nor be forced by Sauron's will.

For details, read my post from 7 November 2005 in the "Importance of Faramir" thread, where i elaborated on this matter.
to study evil is to be studied by evil - disturbingly a quote from star trek deep space nine but very true in many cases as in this one. Mir / Grondy et al. Can you expand on the Palantir and its proper uses a bit?
There's a palantir thread in "The history of" section, called "Tracking the palantiri".

I tried linking to it, but it didn't work out.
Here is the link to Tracking the Palantiri, but that only covers what they are and where they have been, We still haven't covered The Proper Care and Useage of Your Palantir, which should have a thread of its own or be added to the Tracking... thread. Happy Elf Smilie
Posted Tuesday 22nd November 2005 (12:53am)

to study evil is to be studied by evil

...when you look long into an abyss,
the abyss also looks into you...
Friedrich Nietzsche
I learnt everything I know about philosophy from Monty Python's The Philosophers Song.
I was wondering if the plurality could be niggled with. The phrasing seems to call for a singular but a few of the words in Tolkien's languages do not correspond well, like 'is a Rohirrim' for example.

I wonder if the phrasing could be changed to fit better, or perhaps more simply, use the singulars Rohir, D’nadan, and Uruk
I'd like "is of the ’orlingas" more, to be honest.
i think so to
You know, one of the reasons why Saruman got corrupted was because he studied too much on the rings of power and of Mordor, as well as fearing Sauron. When he died he was locked in Middle Earth and not allowed in the halls of Mandos or the other way around.