Thread: Back to Sunday
We have completed The Two Towers and now that the movies have been released as EE version on DVD we will spend the next couple of weeks discussing some of the differences. What event/scene from the book do you wish was included in the movie and why do you think it had important significance to the evolution of the story. "Because Tolkien wrote it that way" isn't what I am looking for. The idea is to think about the events as they unfold and how they contribute to the development of the characters and plot of The Lord of the Rings.
I hope you join us next Sunday.
Here is the log was last Sunday's discussion.
Start of #bilbos-study buffer: Sun Feb 08 19:17:13 2004 [18:09] * Now talking in #bilbos-study
Topic is 'Welcome to the Planet-Tolkien Classroom. If we do not
have a class discussion going on at the moment join us in #tolkien '
Set by Rednell on Sun Sep 07 21:27:18
ChanServ sets mode: +o Rednell
Rednell: since both movies are out in EE, I am going to ask which scenes from the book do you feel should not have been left out of the movie and why. I don't want "because Tolkien wrote it that way" I want some real thought into the reason you think it is important.
Rednell: This week's discussion will concern Fellowship of the Ring.
Rednell: Now that the EE version of the film has been viewed by most fans we will discuss parts of the story that have been left out of the film.
Virumor: i haven't seen EE
Virumor: is that a problem?
Rednell: no, it shouldn't be
Rednell: what events in the book were left out of the movie did you feel should have been included in the hypothetical situation that time was not a limiting factor.
Rednell: What was so significant about the event to the storyline that it should not have been left out.
Rednell: I know we don't have to be concerned with the people who are in this room but there cannot be any personal attacks/comments about the film makers.
Rednell: we are ready to begin.
Rednell: I ask that there be no actions or smilies in the discussion room as it is distracting.
Drizzt: got it
Virumor: ok nell
Rednell: What was missing from Fellowship of the Ring movie that should have been included as it plays an important role in the story?
Drizzt: tom was missing and the whole burowdowns thing
Rednell: good, ok. Why was that important in the story.
Virumor: three makes company, gildor, farmer maggot, old forest,..
Lainadan: I agree with the barrow downs. It would have made a powerful and dark scene.
Rednell: lets start with barrow downs then come back to Virumor.
Rednell: I agree with both.
Drizzt: it was important because it sets up where the magic in the swords came from
Lainadan: Tom though, being the eternal enigma "he" is, may have confused an audience who doesn't know the books.
Rednell: yes, but we are in a hypothetical mood here. Suppose there was unlimited amount of time and budget for the movie
Virumor: it also confuses ppl who read the books..
Lainadan: Right, Drizzt. Arargorn just handing them out like a six-pack he bought at Walmart doesnt cut it *smile*
Rednell: why were the chapters with Tom Bombadil so important to the story?
Lainadan: I can just speak for myself but Tom was important to me because I realized that there are "other", more mysterious and natural powers than the mythology of the world tells us about.
Rednell: very good, that is what I am looking for.
Drizzt: because he is the reason they have the sword marry uses to help kill the morgal
Virumor: well if there's barrowdowns there should be a tom bombadil
Drizzt: yes because bombadil saves them
Lainadan: Wasn't the sword (dagger) even especially made by Numenorians to fight Angmar and its evils? As in made to fight the unholiness of a Nazgul (The Witch King)?
Rednell: yes, that is my reason for feeling Barrow Downs is important. And Tom plays a very important role in that part
Virumor: yes Lainadan
Rednell: yes, Lainadan,
Rednell: But what about Tom and the dreams?
Virumor: Frodo sees gandalf on top of Orthanc
Lainadan: It's a beautiful, long circle then that closes- finding the sword in the Fellowship, stabbing the Witch King in the last book with it.
Rednell: nicely said.
Lainadan: Right, Virumor. That reminds me: There's a dream sequence in the books I never understood...
Rednell: the book is very prophetic.
Lainadan: Frodos first dream ...
Lainadan: A shore, the wild sea, a (white?) tower ...
Virumor: tower of avallone
Virumor: vision of him going to Valinor..
Rednell: were these prophetic dreams of any significance to you when you read the books?
Virumor: first time i read it i didn't understood it / paid attention to it
Virumor: second time it's a "ah right!"
Lainadan: Same here, Virumor.
Rednell: neither did I the first time
Rednell: do you think it would have made any difference for the audience if the dreams were included in the films?
Lainadan: Something in the etxended version, I actually hated about the new scenes ..well ...the farting thing in Lorien wasnt appropriate if you know what I mean.
Virumor: the gandalf dream would make sense.. because they showed that scene anyway
Virumor: the other dream perhaps too
Virumor: i haven't seen the EE, Lainadan. but i presume it was Gimli...
Lainadan: It may have added a certain enigmatic aspect. Made the movie more of a riddle. Some may have liked it, some not.
Rednell: this is true.
Lainadan: It was Pippin unfortunately.
Lainadan: After eating four pieces lembas.
Virumor: that was Gimli in TTT i think
Rednell: no, I was thinking Pippin as they were stocking up the boat
Rednell: anyway, Barrow Downs was a very interesting event in the book and one of quite some significance in the book.
Lainadan: Turn up the sound a little, red. Its a fart unfortunately *sigh*
Rednell: besides the swords, is there anything else that lends itself well to the story?
Virumor: well if Tom's in then Old Forest shud be in too..
Virumor: to introduce Tom
Drizzt: yea they mention the old forest but you have no clue what it is unless you have read the books
Virumor: Old Forest is significant, it is perhaps a first introduction to "living trees"
Virumor: being the Onodrim
Rednell: Personally, I really thought the experience in the Barrow Downs was a test of Frodo's strength
Lainadan: At least we find Old Man Willow in Fangorn later on and get a line or two from Treebeard that actually belongs to Tom.
Rednell: that is true, virumor
Virumor: yes, he made a very long stroll for such an old man..
Lainadan: I agree Red. It makes a point- the whole scene. About awakening courage. And Frodos character.
Rednell: yes, I was rather disappointed to find Old Man Willow in Fangorn, actually.
Lainadan: May I ask what you all thought about Elrond and the actor they chose for him?
Rednell: well, I didn't really want to get into the schematics of the movies
Rednell: but when we finish, we can pick that up in #tolkien.
Virumor: ok nell
Lainadan: I adored though that they included "Bilbo's Trolls" and the campfire among them.
Virumor: i think maybe they should have respected the time more in FOTR
Virumor: it seems that Frodo goes on a trip immediately
Lainadan: The missing 17 years ..yep ...
Virumor: while in 'reality' (heh) there was 17 years in between
Rednell: I agree, Virumor
Mellie: yeah that bothered me aswell
Rednell: It was not clear at all that there was a 17 year gap in there.
Rednell: Lets go to Three is Company.
Mellie: i had to explain to robbie that he did not leave as quickly
Rednell: Virumor, you mentioned that this was significant to the storyline.
Lainadan: Something that surprised me in the book though ...did Gandalf really need 17 years for his research? I mean thats a *very*
long time ...and it didnt happen that much in that time span.
Virumor: well the hobbits planned to join Frodo, they didn't have to 'stumble' into frodo and sam
Virumor: he was searching for gollum too Lainadan
Virumor: not an easy catch..
Mellie: and you have to remember that they were not travelling by cars or planes.
Lainadan: I know. Together with Aragorn. But 17 years? Wow *wink* Anyway ..on to Three is Company then ..
Lainadan: True again.
Virumor: if middle-earth is europe then Mordor is near russia..
Mellie: it takes longer to go from one end of middle earth to the other if you are just walking
Virumor: no offense to russians.. but long trip
Virumor: with the shire being UK, that is
Mellie: very long trip
Lainadan: Im sure thats another reason why Gandalf was very fond of Shadowfex.
Virumor: well if 3 is company is included, then we have Gildor -- first introduction with Elves
Rednell: it is also explained in Three is Company that the other Hobbits do know of the power of the Ring to grant invisiblitly to the wearer
Virumor: and Gildor gives some advice, etc
Rednell: yes, and Gildor gives very good advice
Lainadan: Im not sure if Frodo would agree with you Red *wink*
Rednell: I also think that this is where Sam truely gains his wisdom and strength for the task ahead of them
Lainadan: "Don't go to the Elves for advice ..."
Lainadan: Good point Red. well the Elvish food gave him enough strenght..
Lainadan: You at least see Gildor and his group for a short moment in the Extended Version ...
Virumor: and Gildor would also be a good reason for the Nazg’l to leave so suddenly..
Rednell: yes, but too short to understand their place in the storyline
Virumor: instead of just disappearing after a noise
Rednell: that is a really good point, Vir
Virumor: and well, i guess the dinner at Maggot's shud be in too..
Lainadan: Gentleladies, gentlemen, Im afraid I gotta go ..Its almost midnight over here. It was short but interesting. Thanks for having me.
Rednell: good night
Virumor: so they don't have to flee to the pont but are brought to it
Virumor: but i guess the fleeing proved more action.. also an important factor..
Rednell: yes, less dramatic perhaps. But is there any real importance to the storyline, other than Tolkien wrote it that way?
Virumor: well, Frodo comes to terms with a childhood trauma..
Mellie: yes but i thought it was very spooky in the book, i was so worried about Farmer Maggot
Rednell: do you feel he had to come to terms with that before he could face what lies before him?
Virumor: and perhaps it shows us that the Shire was still safe..but contradiction with the scouring of the shire in the end
Virumor: where the shire is a wasteland
Rednell: well, we see the shire is safe before they leave.
Virumor: it looks like the shire is infested with Nazg’l..
Rednell: but Hobbiton looks very peacefull
Virumor: dunno, i'm thinking bout that scene in the woods, where suddenly all Nazg’l appeared
Virumor: and the Nazg’l slaying one hobbit
Rednell: ok, I have forgotten that scene
Rednell: where is that scene, virumor?
Virumor: there is a scene in which a hobbit with a lantern is slain by a Nazg’l
Virumor: i found that disturbing : it would have alarmed the entire shire immediately
Rednell: in the movie?
Virumor: in the movie, yes
Drizzt: hobits aare slow creatures
Drizzt: and i mean mentaly for the most part
Rednell: I have forgotten that part.
Rednell: indeed, Three is company to the chapter on Bree have pretty much been left out of the movie.
Drizzt: what about the part where frodo makes a fool out of himself in the book that wasnt in the movie
Rednell: These chapters certainly were significant in demonstrating the strength of character and the committed friendship that the Hobbits had
Rednell: why was that of importance, do you think, Drizzt?
Virumor: i don't remember such a part
Drizzt: comedy relife
Drizzt: virumor im speeking of the part where frodo sings and dances on the table at the prancing poney and then falls off and puts
on the ring
Rednell: yes, I agree that those mood changes were important in the book. In fact, I liked seeing the lighter side of Frodo.
Virumor: frodo singing and dancing ?
Virumor: hmm, maybe
Rednell: yes, he sang the hey diddle song
Drizzt: it would have made the movie better
Rednell: In the movie, Pippin was the one to cause Frodo's accident
Virumor: yes he just fell in the movie
Rednell: well, that scene in the book does give us insight into Frodo's character.
Virumor: are we also discussing changes?
Virumor: or just things that were left out?
Rednell: can be changes if there is a reason why the change in the film changes the logistics of the story
Rednell: was there something?
Mellie: yeah i did not understand why they changed that scene in the movie
Rednell: nor did I Mellie. Unless it was to make Pippin look like a real clutz
Mellie: it would not have been that much more for pippin to still cause him to trip
Mellie: oops i said thta backwards
Rednell: Frodo certainly does come out as a very somber and serious character
Virumor: which he wasn't
Drizzt: he seems to serious
Drizzt: and same with sam there was a scean in the book that was left out in the movie that would have made sam seem more real
[19:16] Rednell: well,that's all the time for this week, we can continue with this next week.
End of #bilbos-study buffer Sun Feb 08 19:17:15 2004
The discussion for Feb 22nd has been cancelled as I will be out of town for the weekend. We will continue on Feb 29th.
Start of #bilbos-study buffer: Sun Feb 15 18:58:33 2004 [10:42] * Now talking in #bilbos-study
[10:42] * Topic is 'Welcome to the Planet-Tolkien Classroom. If we do not
have a class discussion going on at the moment join us in #tolkien '
[10:42] * Set by Rednell on Sun Sep 07 21:27:18
[10:42] * ChanServ sets mode: +o Rednell
[17:12] [Rednell] The guidelines are as follows:
[17:12] [Hier_kommt_die_Sonne|Mahal] I’m listening
[17:14] [Rednell] There are serveral differences between the movies and
the book. This week we are doing The Two Towers. Tell us of an event
that took place in the book that was not presented in the movie and why
you feel that it should have been. You have to support your reason by
defining the relationship of the scene to the story as a whole. In
other words, what was the significance of the event in the book that
was not represented in the movie.
[17:15] [Rednell] This can be something that has been left out of the
film, changed in the film or added to the film.
[17:15] [Rednell] You cannot mention any personal remarks towards the
[17:15] [Delpen] he he...
[17:16] [Delpen] too bad, really..
[17:16] [Rednell] well, there are places in the forums where you can add
to the long list of derogatory remarks
[17:16] [Vee] I am not sure I can put those things into words
[17:17] [Rednell] you might be surprised as the discussion gets going
things may come together for you.
[17:17] [Vee] true
[17:17] [Vee] I've not done this before
[17:17] [Hier_kommt_die_Sonne|Mahal] darn
[17:18] [Rednell] we have already heard it all, Aule. I want to know how
well people really know Tolkien's story and the underlying reason for
way the events unfolded
[17:18] [Rednell] I will start.
[17:19] [Rednell] The scene that stands out most in my mind is the
presence of the Elves at Helms Deep
[17:20] [Vee] yes, but is there a reason for it not to be in the film
other than it wasn't in the book
[17:20] [Rednell] I believe that Helms Deep was the true test of the
strength of men and it was their time to show that they were worthy of
taking over the stewartship of Middle Earth
[17:20] [Vee] I mean, I know it didn't happen but it was a fantastic
piece of ciname
[17:20] [Vee] ah
[17:20] [virumor] are we discussing ttt already?
[17:20] [Vee] good point
[17:20] [Hier_kommt_die_Sonne|Mahal] yup
[17:21] [Vee] I hadn't looked t it that way
[17:21] [Rednell] just started Virumor
[17:21] [Vee] although I confess to enjoying that scene just for the WOW
[17:21] [Rednell] I think that is the theme that is running throughtout
the book. The time of the Elves is at an end.
[17:21] [virumor] did i miss a week??
[17:21] [Rednell] nope
[17:21] [Vee] yes, but the elves were only there as a minority and not
expected to make much difference
[17:22] [virumor] ok
[17:22] [Vee] so it did show that although the elves are leaving they
haven't forgotten the old alliance
[17:22] [Delpen] mhm, it was just a sumbol
[17:22] [Delpen] but on the other hand
[17:22] [Delpen] it showed that the elves still wanted, or had to help
[17:22] [virumor] they couldn't show the elves fighting in lothlorien,
that's why they were at helm's deep
[17:22] [Rednell] which is probably the point that was intented, Delpen.
[17:22] [virumor] that's it. period.
[17:22] [Hier_kommt_die_Sonne|Mahal] but if I’m not mistaken the elves
were occupied with defending their own borders?
[17:22] [virumor] but if there were elves there, there should be dwarves
[17:22] [Vee] Rivendell seemed to be well protected anyway
[17:23] [Delpen] I know, Rednell
[17:23] [Rednell] yes, Aule, that is indeed what the Elves were busy with
[17:23] [Delpen] and now, that I think about it, I guess You're right
are ugly. elves not
[17:24] [Hier_kommt_die_Sonne|Mahal] I fail to understand though why the
elves would come and not the dwarfs? The dwarves of Erebor were
friendly towards men and were in the Last Alliance as well
[17:24] [Delpen] that's a topic for another discussion
[17:24] [Vee] plenty of dwarfs in the Hobbit
[17:24] [Vee] Nobody was in contact with the swarfs
[17:24] [Vee] dwarfs
[17:24] [Rednell] knowing how the Battle of Helm's Deep transpired in the
book and the way it was depicted in the book, do you think it affects
the outcome of the overall story?
[17:24] [Vee] whereas Elrond knew what was happening
[17:24] [virumor] only in the movies
[17:25] [Rednell] How did he know, Vee?
[17:25] [Vee] he had foresight
[17:25] [Vee] didn't he
[17:25] [Vee] and he knew about the ring etc
[17:25] [Rednell] I don't remember reading that in the books, but I could
have missed it.
[17:25] [Hier_kommt_die_Sonne|Mahal] well I don’t think foresight means
seeing exactly what happens in the entire M-E
[17:25] [Rednell] He knew about the Ring because he was there
[17:25] [virumor] only in the movies, again
[17:25] [Vee] no
[17:25] [Hier_kommt_die_Sonne|Mahal] at all times
[17:26] [virumor] he was no nostradamus
[17:26] [Vee] ok
[17:26] [Rednell] He was with Isildur when he came into possession of the
Ring. I don't think he knew the Ring had been found until Gandalf told
[17:26] [Vee] but I get the impression that Elrond or Galadriel would
know more about what was going on
[17:26] [Vee] we know that elves were travelling
[17:26] [virumor] in the movies, they seem to know exactly what happens,
[17:27] [virumor] galadriel even knows that faramir is taking the ring
[17:27] [Rednell] Galadriel, yes, possibly
[17:27] [virumor] but that's the mirror
[17:27] [Vee] yes but I mean both Elrond and Galadriel had met the
[17:27] [Rednell] She does send messages to Aragorn and Legolas, remember
[17:27] [Vee] and had talked with Gandalf
[17:27] [Vee] they must have known the score
[17:27] [Delpen] too bad... gotta go...
[17:27] [virumor] are we discussing books or movies?
[17:27] [Rednell] both
[17:27] [virumor] i'm confused
[17:28] [Rednell] in the book, Virumor Gandalf brings messages from
[17:28] [Vee] this discussion is good for me because I find sometimes I
am confused between the film and book
[17:28] [Rednell] She sends the message to Legolas to beware the sea
[17:28] [Hier_kommt_die_Sonne|Mahal] I don’t remember too much from
TTT....I gotta get an english copy and reread LoTR
[17:28] [Vee] just means that I read the book more
[17:28] [virumor] why is that so important?
[17:29] [Rednell] She sends a message to Aragorn telling him what he
needs to do
[17:29] [virumor] nope
[17:29] [Rednell] That is in TTT, Chapter 5 The White Rider
[17:29] [virumor] only a hint, Elrond sends that message but whatever
[17:30] [virumor] strange however, i thought she didn't like to say 'do
this or that'
[17:31] [Rednell] she sent it in the form of a poem
[17:31] [Rednell] Where now are the Dunedain,
[17:31] [virumor] aragorn doesn't seem to pay much attention to it, though
[17:32] [Rednell] no, because I don't think he was ready for it yet
[17:32] [virumor] he didn't have the banner yet
[17:33] [Rednell] no, that came later with the Grey Company
[17:33] [Rednell] I think that is when it came
[17:33] [virumor] and with an identical message from Elrond
[17:33] [virumor] "remember the paths of the dead"
[17:33] [Rednell] yes
[17:34] [Rednell] So now we dont know who really had the gift of
foresight as Galadriel and Elrond must have been talking together.
[17:34] [Vee] Galadriel had the water mirror
[17:34] [virumor] galadriel knows what's going on because of the Mirror
[17:34] [virumor] that's not foresight
[17:35] [Rednell] but the message made much more sense to him when he met
the Grey Company
[17:35] [virumor] elrond couldn't see what was happening in the books
because the lands had darkened
[17:35] [Rednell] that is a good point, Vee
[17:35] [virumor] in the movies? no idea
[17:36] [Vee] Anyway, Gandalf had gone riding off
[17:36] [virumor] in the books, there is nothing mentioned of elrond
[17:36] [Vee] on an errand, he said
[17:36] [virumor] only that he could peer deep into hearts like galadriel
[17:36] [Vee] maybe part of that errand was to rally the elves as well as
[17:36] [Rednell] no, I don't remember anything about elrond having
foresight. Just Galadriel's mirror
[17:36] [virumor] that's movie invention
[17:37] [Vee] ok, so it should have been Galadriel who sent elves not
Elrond, unless Gandalf had been to Rivendell
[17:37] [virumor] the elves came from Lothlorien..
[17:37] [virumor] and galadriel was boss there, not elrond
[17:37] [virumor] sounds logical
[17:37] [Rednell] but the Elves were never sent. The twins were with the
Grey Company but that was it
[17:37] [virumor] eh, are we talking books or movie now?
[17:38] [Rednell] book
[17:38] [Vee] we are comparing
[17:38] [virumor] *sigh*
[17:38] [virumor] i'm confusedc
[17:38] [Rednell] yes, we are comparing
[17:38] [virumor] comapring what?
[17:38] [Vee] the elves were not sent in the book
[17:38] [virumor] comparing*
[17:38] [Vee] with what the film did
[17:38] [Vee] the elves were at Helm's Deep in the film and we are
discussing whether or not that was a good idea
[17:39] [Rednell] Why do you think it was decided to show the Elves at
[17:39] [virumor] well, i said previous that the elves were sent to
helm's deep because PJ couldn' show them fighting at the borders of
[17:39] [Rednell] and that makes sense to me.
[17:39] [virumor] but.. if PJ showed elves there he should've showed
dwarves there too.. perthaps
[17:39] [Vee] it was a very good [gasp] cinematic plot to wow the audience
[17:40] [virumor] and elves look better than dwarves..
[17:40] [Rednell] I think that is where I think that an important point
in the story is missed because of the change
[17:40] [Vee] I don't think that is necessarily true
[17:40] [Vee] it may have been a decision just to have one race there and
I can understand that in terms of film making
[17:41] [virumor] well.. in the books the rohirrim do it alone
[17:41] [virumor] not that the elves helped much in the movies, anyway,
they were slaughtered, but it's the thought that counts
[17:41] [Rednell] and it proved that men were worthy to stand up against
the evil that lurked in Middle Earth.
[17:41] [virumor] yes
[17:42] [Vee] yes there is that
[17:42] [Vee] but
[17:42] [virumor] it takes away something of their heroic performance
[17:42] [Rednell] Was there any other changes, left out events, etc in
The Two Towers, barring the last part which was shown in ROTK?
[17:42] [Vee] the elves being there also showed that they supported men
and were willing to fight with them and take orders from them
[17:42] [virumor] well, the Entmoet
[17:42] [Rednell] we already know that, Vee from the last alliance
[17:42] [virumor] Treebeart having to be tricked by pipppin
[17:42] [Vee] yes
[17:42] [Vee] lots
[17:42] [virumor] that's to give 'em something to do
[17:42] [Rednell] good point Virumor
[17:43] [Rednell] what is significant about that change in your opinion?
[17:43] [virumor] eowyn at helm's deep
[17:43] [virumor] the entire ppl of rohan at helm's deep..
[17:43] [Vee] there aren't many men left that remember the last alliance
[17:43] [virumor] that's to show the ppl that's something big is on
stake, i dunno
[17:44] [Vee] I didn't like Theoden at Helm;s Deep - in the film it was
always Aragorn doing the heroic bit but I think it was Theoden who
decided to ride out
[17:44] [virumor] eomer wasn't at helm's deep..
[17:44] [virumor] i think if Eowyn was at helm's deep, she would have
found a way to fight
[17:44] [Vee] he was in the book, but he wasn't banished in the book
[17:44] [virumor] she wouldn't have stayed with the women and children
[17:44] [virumor] no, he fought at helm's deep
[17:45] [Vee] in the book not the film
[17:45] [Vee] I like the earlier piece in the book where Eomer gives
Theoden his sword
[17:45] [Rednell] I think you are right about Eowyn, Vir
[17:46] [virumor] i think PJ sent the entire ppl of Edoras to helm's deep
to give the uruks something to fight for..
[17:46] [Rednell] yes, Vee, I like that too.
[17:46] [virumor] to show the public there's a nation on stake
[17:46] [Rednell] I think he didn't really want another location to deal
[17:46] [Vee] I think it may have been a financial thing which made them
[17:46] [Rednell] but that is a really good point that I never
[17:46] [Vee] this way they didn't need Erkenbrand
[17:46] [virumor] well and in TTT book Eowyn isn't really big character
[17:47] [virumor] he wanted to show a female character more
[17:47] [virumor] apart frmo Arwen
[17:47] [Vee] and as for Aragorn falling off a cliff.......
[17:47] [Rednell] ah yes, now what was the purpose of that?
[17:47] [virumor] he wanted the public to feel excited...
[17:48] [Vee] I think there was a choice for PH - either make a film for
Tolkien fans word for word or make a film for the general public which
stays reasonable true to the story
[17:48] [virumor] just a trick to let ppl think he's finished
[17:48] [Vee] it also gave them an excuse to bring Arwen in
[17:48] [Vee] again
[17:48] [Rednell] I agree with you Vee
[17:48] [virumor] not really
[17:48] [Vee] after all, there are hardly any female characters of note
[17:48] [virumor] he showed it in flashback
[17:48] [Vee] yes, but Arwen was in the film
[17:48] [Rednell] about the film for general public thing
[17:48] [virumor] he showed her i should say
[17:49] [Vee] without the flashback we wouldn't have seen anything of her
and we would know less about her and Aragorn
[17:49] [virumor] we can't have a movie without such a big hollywood
star, after all
[17:49] [Rednell] I would like to get back to the Entmoot and Pippin
[17:49] [Vee] the falling off a cliff but being washed up with one's
sword still intact is a little unbelievable
[17:49] [virumor] that's to give Pippin something to do
[17:49] [Vee] I wish he had thought of another way of flashbacking Arwen
[17:50] [Vee] sorry
[17:50] [Vee] I am babbling
[17:50] [virumor] dunno i thought that wasn't that bad
[17:50] [Rednell] Why was it important that the ents decided on their own
that they were going to attack Isengard?
[17:50] [Vee] the ents were ready to fight Sauraman without M & P
[17:51] [virumor] nature vs technology
[17:51] [virumor] they got that they would be destroyed by the storm too
[17:51] [Vee] it showed that they were more active than we were led to
believe in the film
[17:51] [virumor] if they wouldn't do nothing
[17:51] [Vee] and that they were decisive
[17:51] [virumor] they were wise in the books
[17:51] [virumor] hasty and dumb in the films
[17:51] [virumor] not remembering how Entwives look??
[17:51] [Vee] hasty and not bothered about ME I would say
[17:52] [virumor] Treebeard says "oh!! i remember how fair fimbrethil
was" or something in the book
[17:52] [Hier_kommt_die_Sonne|Mahal] well PJ must’ve gotten a copy with a
typ-o at that exact piece:P
[17:52] [Rednell] Aule, that comment is personal
[17:53] [Hier_kommt_die_Sonne|Mahal] sorry...just had to
[17:53] [Hier_kommt_die_Sonne|Mahal] thought it was humorous
[17:53] [Vee] at least the ents did go to way eventually
[17:53] [virumor] actually, a lot of scripts were written at the moment
they were shooting..
[17:53] [Vee] way=war
[17:54] [Rednell] I agree, Virumor. The portrayal of the Ents in the book
shows them as concerned about what is happening and taking action to
reclaim their place in Middle Earht
[17:54] [virumor] another important change i think : Th’oden wanting to
[17:54] [Vee] have we finished with the ents
[17:54] [Rednell] yes, that also did not happen as it took awhile even
after Grima left for Theoden and some of his men to learn to trust
[17:55] [Rednell] There was a point in the book where they said that they
"wished he was there to guide them"
[17:55] [virumor] he still gave Grima the option of joining them
[17:55] [Rednell] indeed he did
[17:56] [virumor] well... and of course the Arwen stuff..
[17:57] [virumor] heh did anyone mention the Faramir stuff?
[17:57] [Vee] not yet
[17:57] [Vee] that is one of my complaints
[17:57] [Rednell] How do you think the elaboration on the story of Arwen
and Aragorn affects the story as intended?
[17:57] [Rednell] not yet but we will get there
[17:57] [Vee] k
[17:58] [virumor] well in movies aragorn is full of doubt bout his quest
etc and in ttt aragorn thinx arwen is gone = more doubts. i wonder why
he still wants to become a king
[17:59] [virumor] in books isildur wasn't a weakling like in the movies,
and aragorn doesn't doubt to be a king and arwen is a big support and
reason for him to become a king
[17:59] [Rednell] does he want to be king or is he resigned to his
[17:59] [Vee] the latter I think
[17:59] [virumor] in books he wants
[17:59] [virumor] in movies : i do not know
[18:00] [Vee] does he?
[18:00] [Rednell] When I read the books, I didn't get the impression that
he wanted the crown more that he knew that was his destiny
[18:00] [virumor] i have no idea if he even wants to be a king in the
[18:00] [virumor] he seems to linger on
[18:00] [Vee] linger on?
[18:01] [virumor] from the moment he left Rivendell as a young lad, all
his travels and actions had the ultimate purpose to learn about evil so
he could defeat it and become a king later on
[18:02] [Rednell] he knew that was his destiny, his purpose.
[18:02] [Rednell] That is why the Elves sheltered him
[18:02] [Rednell] welcome Juke
[18:02] [Juke] quoi?
[18:03] [virumor] well.. if he didn't do it his race would be gone
[18:03] [Rednell] we are discussing whether Aragorn desired to be King or
accepted that was his destiny
[18:03] [Juke] Short answer: It was his destiny.
[18:04] [Juke] If he had desired the power, it would have made him evil.
[18:04] [Rednell] that is a good point
[18:04] [Vee] And Elrond had told Aragorn that Arwen would not be bride
of any Man less than the King of both Gondor and Arnor
[18:04] [virumor] not in the movies
[18:04] [Vee] so he had incentive
[18:04] [Juke] Like Saruman and Sauron himself, the desire for power
would have corrupted him.
[18:04] [Vee] no, Vir, not in the movies, in the book
[18:04] [Juke] Oooh! I want to teach a course on Gollum.
[18:05] [Rednell] we haven't got to Gollum yet.
[18:05] [Juke] I'm a Gollumist.
[18:05] [virumor] he wanted to be king, that's kinda different than
wanting to rule middle-earth
[18:05] [Juke] virumor: He wanted there to be a king, and he wanted to
[18:06] [Rednell] why did he want to be King, Vir?
[18:06] [Vee] I don't think he wanted to be king apart from knowing it
was his destiny and duty
[18:06] [Juke] That's different from wanting to be king.
[18:06] [Rednell] that is what I feel as well, Vee
[18:06] [virumor] in what way?
[18:06] [virumor] he wanted to be a king because it was his destiny. is
that what you are saying?
[18:06] [Rednell] He wanted to fulfill his duty
[18:07] [Juke] And marry the hot chick.
[18:07] [virumor] that's the most important factor
[18:07] [Juke] Of course.
[18:08] [Rednell] it is one of those, depends on your perception things.
The end result is that he wants to fulfill his duty, which is
honourable and the end result of that is that he wanted to be king. So
we are all in agreeance, actually
[18:09] [Rednell] personal comments about the film makers are not
permitted in this discussion
[18:09] [virumor] well remember that part in the books where he passed
the Argonath? shows he wanted to be a king
[18:09] [Rednell] We are discussion changes in the film that you feel
should not have happened because the event or action had a significant
role to play in the storyline
[18:10] [Vee] I think when he was young he happy about being king
[18:10] [virumor] but it was his destiny too
[18:10] [Vee] yes
[18:10] [Rednell] I did sense a deep pride in him at that point, virumor.
And I felt the same during that scene in the movie as well
[18:11] [virumor] he wanted to restore Gondor's splendour
[18:11] [virumor] he wanted to be a king for that mainly, not for
[18:11] [Vee] I think he was proud of his lineage
[18:12] [Rednell] those are both very good points
[18:12] [Vee] and he had honour
[18:12] [Vee] so he was determined to fulfill that destiny
[18:12] [virumor] in the movies, he's NOT proud of his lineage
[18:12] [Rednell] And he was from the line of Elros so had Elvish blood
[18:12] [virumor] Isildur was shown as a weaklng
[18:12] [Rednell] I didn
[18:12] [Rednell] t get that impression at all
[18:12] [virumor] that's the main reason why i don't understand Aragorn
in the movies
[18:12] [Rednell] Isildur was influenced by the Ring
[18:13] [virumor] scene in rivendell "same blood runs thru my veins, same
[18:13] [Hier_kommt_die_Sonne|Mahal] I got the impression that Aragorn
was ashamed of his lineage
[18:13] [Vee] as was Boromir but not Faramir
[18:13] [Rednell] ahh, right, I forgot about that line
[18:13] [virumor] Isildur was shown as an evil man, who betrayed Elrond..
[18:13] [Hier_kommt_die_Sonne|Mahal] Ashamed of his forefathers
[18:13] [Vee] when Elrond first tells him of it (he was 20?) he sang and
hs heard was high
[18:14] [Vee] he was full of hope
[18:14] [Rednell] very good. That is what I am looking for.
[18:14] [virumor] i don't understand Aragorn's reason to pursue his
destiny in the movies, apart from trying to be better than isildur
[18:14] [Vee] and the world was fair
[18:14] [Vee] so it says in the appendices
[18:14] [Rednell] That one line changes the character of Aragorn and that
in turn could affect the storyline.
[18:15] [virumor] in the books, Aragorn has great forefathers, Arwen as a
big support, and has worked long years to ultimately becomme king
[18:16] [Vee] at times he is also very unsure of his leadership skills
[18:16] [virumor] well, let's say it was too complicated to film..
[18:16] [Vee] has he made the right decision, he asks himself
[18:16] [virumor] and then he broke two of his toes..
[18:16] [virumor] what a leader!
[18:17] [Vee] that has nothing to do with Aragorn in the book or the film
[18:18] [Rednell] Ok, lets move on to Faramir?
[18:18] [Vee] yes please
[18:18] [virumor] PJ changed him becuase he thought the book wasn't good
[18:18] [virumor] thought it was too lame that Faramir just said 'no'
[18:18] [virumor] to the Ring
[18:18] [virumor] that's the reason he changed it
[18:19] [Rednell] PJ remark too personal
[18:19] [Vee] what he actually said about it was that he felt this ring
has such great power even to corrupt Sauruman and yet Faramir can
[18:19] [virumor] it was too difficult to explain that Faramir also had
real numenorean blood in him due to his lineage, i guess
[18:20] [virumor] srry Nell but that's the reason for the change
[18:20] [Vee] pity they left out that lovely conversation between him and
[18:20] [virumor] too much talk
[18:20] [Rednell] I think the stories that Faramir told Frodo are
important to the storyline and to explain Faramir's character
[18:20] [virumor] hard to do in a movie, if you have to stay around 3
[18:20] [Vee] Sam: but I can say this' you have an air too, sir, that
reminds me of, of - well Gandalf, of wizards
[18:21] [virumor] all that talking would slow down the action
[18:21] [Vee] Far: Maybe, Maybe you discern from far away the air of
[18:21] [Rednell] this is true
[18:21] [Vee] Faramir, in the book, was a wonderful character
[18:21] [Vee] the film really fell down on this one
[18:21] [virumor] yes
[18:21] [virumor] they didn't have another option..
[18:21] [Vee] The men of Gondor were not cruel
[18:22] [Vee] I'm sure they didn't treat the hobbits or gollum as badly
[18:22] [virumor] that's true
[18:22] [Rednell] I agree with you there
[18:22] [virumor] that was over it
[18:22] [virumor] Faramir was very alike to Boromir in the movies
[18:22] [virumor] not only in looks..
[18:22] [Rednell] which is unfortunate.
[18:23] [virumor] i think the brother-scene in the extended was nice,
[18:23] [Rednell] There was good reason in the storyline for Faramir to
be wise and kind
[18:23] [Rednell] yes, it was.
[18:23] [Vee] I don't think he was in the film
[18:23] [Vee] but Boromis wasn't bad
[18:23] [virumor] but i don't think Denethor hated Faramir as much as in
[18:24] [Vee] Frodo is reminded of Boromir when he meets the men of Gondor
[18:24] [virumor] anyway, i think it was stupid that Faramir said to
Frodo in Osgiliath "stay out of sight" while Nazg’l attack...
[18:24] [virumor] how did he become captain, i wondered then..
[18:24] [Vee] I think it was funny that Sam said @ We're not meant to
even be here, Mr Frodo...."
[18:25] [virumor] oh, but they were meant to be there..
[18:25] [Rednell] it was not right for Frodo to be in Osgiliath in the
first place. That took them a fair ways off course
[18:25] [Vee] Frodo and Same never went to Osgiliath
[18:25] [virumor] well.. Faramir couldn't just set them free, so they had
to think of something else
[18:25] [Vee] why couldn't he?
[18:26] [Vee] he did in the book
[18:26] [virumor] because his character is completely changed
[18:26] [virumor] doing book-Faramir would be too complicated
[18:26] [Vee] did it need changing?
[18:26] [Vee] why
[18:26] [virumor] and impossible becoz they had to go around 3 hours
[18:26] [virumor] and it would be too much talking
[18:26] [virumor] slowing down the movie
[18:27] [virumor] only in a mini-series we could have the exact LOTR story
[18:27] [Vee] you think?
[18:27] [Vee] only in the book will we ever get the exact story
[18:27] [Rednell] yes, I agree with you virumor
[18:28] [Vee] I think they could have shown Faramir as he was in the book
[18:28] [Rednell] unfortunately, mini series have very small budgets and
don't make any profit
[18:28] [Hier_kommt_die_Sonne|Mahal] Faramir in the book was one of my
favourite characters....very Gandalf like
[18:28] [Vee] but then they would need to carry on his story after the
battles - Eowyn
[18:28] [Hier_kommt_die_Sonne|Mahal] Faramir in the movies was very
[18:28] [Hier_kommt_die_Sonne|Mahal] IMHO
[18:28] [virumor] very Boromirlike
[18:28] [Vee] he wasn't nice
[18:28] [Vee] well, not as nice
[18:28] [Hier_kommt_die_Sonne|Mahal] yeah
[18:29] [Vee] I didn't see him as being like Boromir
[18:29] [Hier_kommt_die_Sonne|Mahal] not gollum like but Boromir like
[18:29] [virumor] he was chosen because he looked like Sean Bean
[18:29] [Rednell] I agree, Vee. I think even with the time constraints,
Faramir could have been portrayed closer to the character he was meant
[18:29] [Hier_kommt_die_Sonne|Mahal] hehe
[18:29] [Vee] Boromir was the eldest brother
[18:29] [virumor] we know
[18:29] [Vee] yes, admittedly they may have had to cut a lot
[18:30] [Vee] but even the reason given by PJ for the Osgiliath trip
didn't mean Faramir had to be so........... suspicious
[18:30] [virumor] there's too much talking in the faramir parts in the
books i guess
[18:30] [Vee] they can cut that down
[18:30] [Vee] it is the character that I feel is important
[18:30] [Rednell] well, in the book, he was telling a lot of the history
of men of Gondor
[18:30] [Vee] or maybe they just didn't want another main character
[18:30] [virumor] the reason why they changed it that they already showed
every character as having troubles in defying the ring
[18:31] [virumor] even Aragorn had troulbe with it
[18:31] [virumor] trouble*
[18:31] [Vee] yes
[18:31] [Vee] I know
[18:31] [Vee] I said this earlier
[18:31] [virumor] maybe they should have done every character right ..
[18:31] [Vee] maybe
[18:32] [Vee] as I also said you either make a film for Tolkien fans or
one for the general public
[18:32] [virumor] faramir had black hair, in the books
[18:32] [Vee] that makes no difference to his character
[18:33] [virumor] so : for the general public the current movie faramir
[18:33] [Rednell] well, I don't really see physical differences as
affecting the storyline, actually
[18:33] [virumor] right. i'd given him green hair
[18:34] [Rednell] I just felt bad that Faramir came across as more of an
enemy then a friend.
[18:34] [Vee] he did the right thing in the end but when they first met
him he was too hard
[18:34] [Rednell] indeed
[18:35] [Vee] in the film
[18:35] [virumor] he wasn't Numenorean
[18:35] [Vee] in the book he was wonderful and I am glad he became
Steward instead of Boromir
[18:35] [Vee] he was
[18:35] [Rednell] but then perhaps that was to really give Gollum good
reason to feel that Master had betrayed him and justify his plan
[18:35] [virumor] well Boromir was dead..
[18:35] [Vee] he shared that lineage
[18:36] [virumor] i meant he didn't act numenorean in the movies, sorry
[18:36] [Vee] ah
[18:36] [Vee] true
[18:36] [Vee] he didn't
[18:36] [Rednell] What about Gollum?
[18:37] [virumor] he was worse than Elrond
[18:37] [Vee] he didn't act Nummenorean either
[18:37] [Vee] sorry
[18:37] [virumor] Gollum was based on an Alan Lee painting, like the
entire LOTR movie
[18:37] [virumor] whether that is bad or good, is debatable
[18:37] [Vee] oh please
[18:37] [Rednell] makes sense since Alan Lee was the artist.
[18:37] [Rednell] Although, most illustrations that I have seen of Gollum
are very similar
[18:38] [Vee] he came in when they starting designing sets
[18:38] [virumor] i thought they pictured him quite well
[18:38] [Vee] I liked Gollum
[18:38] [virumor] the scene of the taming of sm’agol is based on alan lee
[18:38] [Vee] understandable
[18:39] [Vee] but not the whole movie
[18:39] [Rednell] Was that not how you envisioned it?
[18:39] [virumor] no srry i like to exadgerate
[18:39] [virumor] i don't know i have no imagination
[18:39] [Vee] I think Alan Lee's work is interesting
[18:39] [Vee] and a good interpretation
[18:39] [virumor] i didn't really picture gollum like alan lee
[18:40] [Rednell] What about the characterization?
[18:40] [Vee] I can't say I've seen that picture
[18:40] [virumor] well alan lee's gollum was black but anyway
[18:40] [Vee] I though they captured his essence very well
[18:40] [Rednell] Have you heard Tolkien read Riddles in the Dark?
[18:40] [virumor] agreed
[18:40] [Vee] no
[18:41] [virumor] me neither
[18:41] [Rednell] I think Gollum's voice was very close to what Tolkien
[18:42] [Vee] it's how I hear him
[18:42] [virumor] well, there was a gollum change in the movies which is
[18:43] [virumor] in the books, gollum decided that "she could do it"
before the forbidden pool.
[18:43] [Rednell] are you sure?
[18:44] [virumor] yes
[18:44] [Vee] I think that is right
[18:44] [virumor] 100%
[18:44] [Vee] but he intended to take them that way in the film
[18:44] [Vee] just mentioned it in a different place
[18:45] [virumor] in the end, i believe
[18:46] [Rednell] did you have anything to add about Gollum, Juke?
[18:46] [virumor] so in the movies, gollum disappears for a while, but
not in the books
[18:46] [virumor] in the books, the duality stays
[18:47] [Vee] maybe they did that in the film to show that Gollum may
have been redeemable at one point
[18:48] [Rednell] I could still see the duality in the film
[18:49] [virumor] kinda hard to believe
[18:49] [virumor] if he takes them into cirith ungol, they're dead
[18:49] [virumor] gollum/sm’agol always knew that
[18:50] [virumor] sm’agol also always wants the ring, but is just a
coward who doesn't go to action.it's gollum who does the action
[18:50] [virumor] but it's true that frodo believed he could come back
[18:52] [Rednell] Frodo really wanted to believe that
[18:52] [Vee] There is a part in The Stairs of Cirith Ungol which could
have inspired the losing of gollum
[18:53] [virumor] there's a nice scene in the book, in which Gollum looks
at frodo and sam sleeping. gollum resembles almost an oldhobbit then
[18:54] [virumor] impossible to film, pity
[18:55] [Rednell] oh, I think with cg technology it could be
[18:55] [Vee] Gollum looked at them. A strange expression passed over
his lean hungry face. The gleam faded from his eyes, and they went dim
and gre old and tired. A spasm of pain seemed to twist him and he
turned away, peering back up towards the pass, shaking his head as if
engaged in some interior debate. Then he came back and slowly putting
out a trembling hand, very cautiously he touched Frodo's knee - but
almost the touch was a caress. For a fl
[18:55] [virumor] yup, and then Sam freaked out..
[18:55] [Vee] ye[
[18:55] [virumor] and then Gollum freaked out
[18:55] [Vee] so in a way gollum did leave
[18:56] [Vee] and come back
[18:56] [virumor] yes
[18:56] [Vee] "the fleeting moment had passed beyond recall."
[18:56] [virumor] sm’agol felt sorry for them, gollum didn't
[18:56] [Vee] they just used poetic licence
[18:56] [Vee] in the film
[18:56] [Vee] but it was a good scene in the film
[18:57] [Rednell] yes, overall, I think Gollum was the hightlight of the
[18:57] [Vee] that chap should get an Oscar for what he went through
[18:58] [Rednell] I am going to officially end the discussion now but you
can continue if you wish.
[18:58] [Vee] ok
[18:58] [Rednell] I am just doing the copy at this point.
[18:58] [virumor] ok
End of #bilbos-study buffer Sun Feb 15 18:58:33 2004
Start of #bilbos-study buffer: Mon Feb 23 00:19:14 2004
* Now talking in #bilbos-study
* Topic is 'Welcome to the Planet-Tolkien Classroom. If we do not have a class
discussion going on at the moment join us in #tolkien '
* Set by Rednell on Mon Sep 08 02:27:18
[Rednell] Please no actions in the discussion. They are a pain to clean up before
pasting in the forums
[Rednell] We are starting the Return of the King, chapter 1, Minas Tirith
[Rednell] While reading this chapter did anyone notice the significance of the
[virumor] ’ circles
[V] seven stars?
[Arco] the number of circles in the City
[Rednell] How many beacons were there?
[virumor] let me guess : 7?
[Arco] Ok; circles in city, palant’r, beacon-hills, stars...
[Rednell] Why were there seven beacons?
[virumor] 7 stars and a white tree
[Rednell] yes, Arco, you got them all
[virumor] the stars are the palantiri, then
[V] I never noticed that before
[V] why 7 circles
[Arco] I thought the stones were the palant’ri
[virumor] the stars resemble the plaantirei
[Rednell] the stars actually represent the 7 ships that bore the seven palantir
[Rednell] the stones are the planatir
[Delpen] 7 is the number of 'good' in the bible, isn't it?
[virumor] don't know
[Rednell] on the banner there are 7 stars, 7 stones and one tree
[Delpen] (I may be wrong, but I think so)
[Delpen] Tolkien was a very religious man, so it would make sense
[V] and so they built 7 circles
[virumor] there are not 7 stars on the flag i thought
[Arco] there are also 7 Gates in Minas Tirith (as with Gondolin)
[virumor] just a tree surrounded by ’ stars
[Rednell] I don't know Delpen, however, I do know that there is something
significant about the number 7 in the Bible and Tolkien probably did draw from
[Rednell] you are correct, Virumor. I was reading where Pippin was thinking: " Seven
Stars,and seven stones and one white tree"
[V] it does say "seven stars and seven stones and one white tree
[V] just found that bit
[virumor] that's gandalf's line
[Rednell] oh good, I was trying to find the line
[virumor] when they rode to MT
[V] although the Guards of the Citadel had many-pointed stars on their armour
[V] and white wings of sea-birds
[Rednell] what were their helms made of?
[virumor] mithril? dunno
[V] Aragorns standard had 7 stars
[virumor] can't think of any other middel-earth material which is specila
[V] described as the signs of Elendil
[Rednell] yes, it was mithril
[virumor] it was a tree (nimloth) surrounded by 7 stars
[Rednell] on their armour
[virumor] on the banner which Arwen made too
[Rednell] yep, we will get to that later in the book.
[Rednell] Why did Gandalf tell Pippin not to say anything about Aragorn to Denethor?
[virumor] they're rivals
[V] because he was the king
[virumor] no he isn't
[virumor] the steward
[V] and it would mean the end of Denethor and heirs as rulers
[Arco] because Aragorn could claim the kingship
[V] Aragorn was the rightful king
[Arco] ...and besides, they already had bad news
[Rednell] but is this not what Denethor and his ancestors has been waiting for
[virumor] it is, but denethor doesn't accept aragorn's lineage
[virumor] which comes out later in the book
[V] yes but most had given up waiting
[V] Denethor thinks the line has been broken
[Rednell] How did Denethor receive the news of Boromir's death?
[Delp|sleeping] even if he didn't, he was a human, and he wouldn't like to give up
so much power (sorry, I'm already leaving :P)
[virumor] he has the broken horn of gondor in his lap
[virumor] i guess faramir sent someone
[V] washed up by the river
[Arco] the River brought the horn to him
[V] and if, as suspected, Denethor was using the stone he may have been able to see
something of what happened
[virumor] no he couldn't
[V] although I don't think he did
[virumor] sauron controlled it
[V] Sauron didn't
[virumor] he did
[V] did not
[Rednell] what was his reaction when Boromir's death was confirmed by Pippin?
[virumor] eh made denethor show only his big armies of moroder
[virumor] that's why denethro went nuts
[V] H wished Faramir had gone instead
[virumor] he wondered why pippin didn't do anythign to save him or something
[virumor] it's all blurry
[Rednell] What does Pippin offer Denethor as payment of the debt owed Boromir]
[V] he wondered why Pippin survived and yet a strong man like Boromir didn't
[virumor] his sword
[V] Pippin offers his service
[Rednell] yes. How did Denethor react to this?
[Arco] he was both amused and surprised
[Arco] (& somewhat pleased)
[V] it touches his heard and pleased his humour (said Gandalf)
[Rednell] so it would have seemed
[virumor] the eye of gandalf sees all
[Rednell] "A pale smile, like a gleaming cold sun on a winter's morning passed over
the man's face"
[Rednell] what does that tell you about Denethor's reaction?
[Rednell] or about Denethor, actually
[virumor] a harsh, cold-hearted man
[V] hidden agenda
[Rednell] yeah, I got that too, definitely the hidden agenda
[Rednell] What did Denethor have to say when Pippin offered his sword?
[virumor] something bout the sword
[virumor] it comes from annuminas, so on and such like
[V] he recognised it as being made by his ancesters in the North
[Arco] he wanted to know where it came from; for it looked to be made by a D’nadan
[Rednell] How much information did Pippin give him?
[V] only that it came from the mounds in his country
[virumor] he mentione dthe barrowdowns
[V] and he would not willingly tell more
[Arco] he briefly said it came from the Barrow-downs, though he didn't name them,
describe them, or go into detail
[V] and only evil wights live there now
[Rednell] It would seem Pippin was following Gandalf's advice.
[virumor] pippin being put between two fires
[Rednell] Denethor and Gandalf seem to be having an interesting "sword firght" with
words. Why did Gandalf say that he was also a steward?
[virumor] he was sent by manw’ and varda
[virumor] to help the ppls of ME
[virumor] something around that, he is the steward of entire mE or something like
[V] would denethor know that
[Rednell] yes, virumor, that is indeed what Gandalf was trying to convey. I doubt
very much that Denethor would know or even be interested in the valar
[Arco] he was also saying, imo: Look, even if Minas Tirith falls, I still won't have
failed. So shut your mouth and stop arguing.
[Arco] the "shut up " being part of the paraphrase
[Rednell] " All worthy things that are in peril as the world now stands, those are
[virumor] i'm sure denethor knew stuff about valinor and the first age too
[Rednell] yes, I caught that Virumor. It was almost an insult to Denethor.
[virumor] after all, Faramir seems to know stuff bout it nm
[Rednell] he would have know, but no more than we know about myths and legends
[V] Faramir was a pupil of Gandalf's and denethor resented that
[Rednell] In which case, Denethor would not see Gandalf as any more than an meddling
[V] Denethor knew about Insuldur's Bane and he knew about the palantir and he uses
[virumor] and he became Saruman #2
[V] no he didn't
[Arco] well, not exactly...
[virumor] about the meddling old man thing, he knew gandalf was of the same order of
Saruman and he seems to have nothing against saruman so
[V] not at all
[Rednell] I think he would see the Ring as a talisman. I don't think it indicates
that he believes in the valar
[virumor] i think he senses the power in gandalf
[V] he resisted Sauron and still defied him although he thought it was all hopeless
[V] Denethor had probably seen Gandalf in the stone
[V] he said he could see things far away
[Rednell] Faramir made reference in Windows on the West that men had turned to evil
[virumor] he talks alot about ancient history, yes
[Rednell] something else interesting that is mentioned in this chapter is that
Denethor and Faramir had Westernesse blood running through them, however, Boromir
[virumor] Boromir must be the son of the baker's j/k
[V] yes, Boromir was unlike Denethor whereas Faramir was very much like him
[V] strange that denethor favoured Boromir
[Arco] just different genomes
[V] Faramir was the best one to take over as steward
[Rednell] I agree, V
[virumor] maye because boromir was so much unlike him
[Rednell] Tolkien does mention that virumor.
[V] and Denethor is of far greater lineage and power than Theoden
[Rednell] it takes more than lineage and power to make a great king.
[virumor] denethor could never be king
[V] when did Gandalf knnnow that Denethor had been using the stone? Did he suspect?
[virumor] although boromir would want taht
[virumor] he did suspect, yes
[virumor] because denethor aged so fast and was so weary, i think
[Rednell] I don't know where or if Gandalf mentions it before it is discovered.
[virumor] whilst he was a year or two older than aragorn
[virumor] he said he suspected it, i htink
[V] he sort of hints at it when speaking to Pippin
[V] and the look he and denethor exchange is also an indicator
[V] I think
[virumor] he kinda almost says it himself he says something like 'i have seen many
things' 'i don't wanna be the tool' etcetc
[virumor] he hinted he knew of aragorn
[Rednell] Gandalf did mention that Denethor could glean a lot of information from
short conversation with Pippin
[virumor] numenoran blood
[Arco] he also hinted "for though the Stones be lost, THEY SAY,
[Rednell] I didn't pick up on all that, very good.
[V] It was Denethor that said that though wasn't it?
[virumor] gandalf has always wondered what happened to the palantiri, after he knew
that saruman had one
[virumor] i think he realized denethor had one, too
[V] he knew Sauron had one as well
[virumor] well, after the saruman thing he was sure of that
[V] especially after Pippin looked in it
[Rednell] an image that Pippin was not able to shake.
[virumor] it was for the better, anyway
[virumor] otherwise gandalf would have looked in it
[Rednell] How did the people of Minas Tirith treat Pippin after he came into
[virumor] and he would have disobeyed the valar, without any option
[virumor] they thought he was a prince
[V] they were very interested
[virumor] or something like that
[V] and a great warrior
[V] and was bringing an army
[virumor] they were fantasizing about him..
[Rednell] yes, they did. Pippin of all Hobbits!
[Arco] they thought he was a prince of the Halflings, and was bringing a hobbit
warrior for every Rohir that would come, of all things!
[V] that's right - they would be riding on the horses like Pippin did with Gandalf
[Rednell] very interesting perspective. I think it shows how desparate they were for
[V] why had Gondor fallen into decay? Was it the war with Sauron?
[virumor] they mingled with lesser ppl
[virumor] like Faramir indicated in his convo with sam and frodo
[V] that wouldn't necessarily mean that the people decreased in number the way they
[virumor] yeh, and some wars helped too, of course
[virumor] dunno decay. they were still able to hold sauron back for a long time
[Rednell] of course. They have been paying dearly for many years. Probably war is
all most of the people of Gondor would know.
[V] I suppose it didn't help that Denethor was a bit loopy and obsessed with the
[V] Can I mention Faramir.....?
[Rednell] The fact that Boromir lead the attack that gained back Osgiliath probably
puts him on a pedistal too.
[virumor] faramir was there too
[V] I like the speech that Beregond made about Faramir.
[virumor] at osgiliath
[Rednell] why is that, v?
[virumor] strange that beregond never mentions boromir once
[V] he does
[virumor] he does?
[virumor] ok, it's all blurry anywya
[V] he says that Boromir drove the enemy back from Asgiliath
[virumor] could be
[V] and he mentions him again
[V] "Less reckless and eager than Boromir, but not less resolute"
[Rednell] oh, Tolkien mentions in one of his letters about Faramir's role as captain.
[V] Beregond sees the kingly side of Faramir
[virumor] didn't boromir say something at the council of elrond of the enemy taking
the bridge of osgiliath and he and his brother and two others being the only
[virumor] it's all blurry
[V] I also think Beregond realises that because of Denethor's apathy they are not
[virumor] then denethor sends faamir away to take osgiliath back or something
[Rednell] He had been retaining a power of command among men, such as a man may
obtain who is evidently personally courageous and decisive, but also, fair-minded
and scrupulously just, and very merciful
[Rednell] that is from Tolkien's Letters
[Rednell] That is what Beregond would have seen in Faramir
[virumor] has beregond always been under faramir's command?
[Arco] the CoE quote:"'I was in the company that held the bridge, until it was cast
down behind us. Four only were saved by swimming: my brother and myself, and two
[virumor] ty for the quote
[Rednell] I didn't think it was mentioned other than he was in the Third Company
[V] I just found it was well
[virumor] so faramir was at boromir's side
[virumor] but denethor probably only saw boromir there
[Rednell] well, he would have seen Boromir as the commander.
[Rednell] and as such would only give recognition to him
[virumor] ok, i thought faramir only kept himself busy with ithilien when boromir
[virumor] later on, he took boromir's place
[virumor] leader of the rangers of ithilien
[virumor] another resemblance with strider
[Rednell] Does it seem that Denethor has a real purpose for Pippin when he made him
an officer in his service?
[V] other than getting information?
[virumor] well he serves denethor at dinner
[Rednell] that would be my guess
[V] I don't think he had a purpose because Pippin offered his service freely and
[V] but he did see a chance of getting information
[Rednell] yes, but that was a real opportunity that fell into Denethor's lap
[virumor] how did he get information for denethor???
[V] don't look a gift horse in the mouth
[Arco] Beregond (at first) thought it was just a whim of Denethor's
[Rednell] compare Denethor's acceptance of Pippin's offer and Theoden's acceptance
of Merry's offer
[V] how did Beregond think it a whim?
[Arco] "'I thought it was the whim of our Lord to take him a noble page, after the
manners of the kings of old, they say. But I see that it is not so, and you must
pardon my foolishness.'"
[Rednell] very good Arco, thank-you
[Rednell] but he sends him to his son for companionship. Do you think if Pippin was
a man, Beregond would have done that?
[Arco] Pippin did act rather young, and he indeed did say that he was not yet of
age. Merry once referred to Pippin as having "unquenchable cheerfulness."
[Rednell] So do you think he did this because he believed Pippin was a noble page as
a result of a whim of Denethor'?
[virumor] pippin wasn't an adult hobbit yet, technically
[virumor] just 28
[Rednell] yes, this is true.
[virumor] so he is still a kid
[virumor] well but anyway it's true he doesn't act very adult
[V] Beregond did offer his son's services as a guide
[Rednell] I do think that Pippin was very comfortable with Bergil
[Arco] and I also think he was thinking of his son's interests, as well as Pippin's.
[V] stranger in a strange land
[V] good to have someone who knows things
[virumor] it's a bit disturbing he says 'haha, then i'd have to kill you' or
something in the beginning
[virumor] strange way of trying to make new friends
[Arco] well, he was jokingly retaliating at Bergil's claim that he could stand him
on his head
[virumor] dunno, i wouldn't have said that
[virumor] i could kick you into mt doom from here, would be more joking, for instance
[virumor] well that's killing too, nm
[Arco] I thought he was just kidding around with him
[virumor] i remember the strangest parts
[V] probably shows that Pippin was more mature
[Rednell] Let's move on to The Passing of the Grey Company
[Rednell] Does Merry feel that he has any useful purpose in what is left of the
[Arco] not really
[V] he misses Pippin
[Arco] yes, I'd say both
[V] Interesting how the Rangers and sons of Elrond were answering a 'summons' from
[Rednell] Did having Pippin with him make him any more valuable to the fellowship?
[Rednell] except Aragorn didn't summon them.
[V] no but it gave hima companion and confidence
[virumor] aragorn was very surprised to see his nephew
[V] that's why I put summons in ' '
[Arco] Galadriel summoned them
[virumor] that's movie crap
[virumor] they came because they wanted to take their place themselves
[Arco] what is? there's nothing in the movies about the dunedain coming
[V] Gimli says Gandalf and Legolas says Galadriel
[Arco] and what about Galadriel's song to Aragorn:
[Arco] Where now are the D’nedain, Elessar, Elessar? Why do thy kinsfolk wander
afar? Near is the hour when the Lost should come forth, And the Grey Company ride
from the North. And dark is the path appointed for thee: The Dead watch the road
that leads to the Sea.
[virumor] well it seems to rhime very well
[Arco] well, it was a rhyme sent from her by Gandalf
[Rednell] and Gimli comes to agree that was probably the summons after Legolas
[virumor] was that in the chapter the white rider?
[Arco] foreshadowing, I'd say
[Rednell] yes, I think we talked about it last week or the week before.
[V] Was Halbarad Aragorn's nephew? I didn't know that.
[Arco] nor did I
[virumor] yes, but still unsure she summoned them
[virumor] perhaps she only saz it in her mirror
[virumor] yes he was his nephew
[virumor] i always remember trivial facts
[V] Word came to Rivendell - Aragorn had need of his kindred. Let the Dunedain ride
to him in Rohan.
[V] almost a quote
[V] so Aragorn had brothers or sisters?
[virumor] he didn't
[Arco] kindred: kin; people related to one another
[Rednell] but Isildur had 2 sons
[V] his dad was killed when he was little
[virumor] gilraen could have brothers and sisters
[virumor] or his father
[V] they are probably related
[V] in that Middle earth sort of way
[V] The Rangers are a surly bunch
[Rednell] Merry offers his services to Theoden in the same manner as Pippin offered
his to Denethor. Rather impulsively.
[Rednell] What was the difference?
[virumor] th’oden is friendly
[V] Theoden was more like a father
[Arco] Merry did it out of love; Pippin from debt
[Arco] ...or at least perceived debt...
[virumor] when did merry do that?
[V] page 50
[Arco] In the Passing of the Grey Company
[Rednell] yes, Arco, that is the difference I was looking for. Do you think that
makes a difference in the way Pippin and Merry will serve their lords?
[V] I think Pippin realises fairly soon that Denethor is a nutter
[V] whereas Merry has much love and respect for Theoden
[virumor] denethor isn't a nutter
[V] oh he is
* Al`Ashrad waves but soon departs
[V] hi Al
[virumor] only in the end
[V] bye Al
* Al`Ashrad has left #bilbos-study
[Arco] yes, he's just misled by the deceitful images he's been seeing in his palant’r
[Rednell] What about the manner in which Denethor and Theoden accept the allegience
of Pippin and Merry?
[V] I think Pippin was scared of him from the start
[V] Totally different
[Arco] Pippin was angered by Denethor's scorn, Merry was grateful for Th’oden's kind
[V] Theoden accepted it without question and gladly
[Rednell] Denethor just coldly says "I accept your service"
[Arco] Denethor was surprised and almost mocking as he accepted it, whereas Th’oden
was grateful and blessed Merry
[Rednell] Theoden says "Gladly I will take it" and blesses him
[Rednell] How did Merry feel when Aragorn was going on without him?
[virumor] he hated to be separated
[virumor] i think
[Arco] he was both depressed and puzzled, but didn't want to be "laid aside, like
baggage to be called for when all is over."
[Rednell] He really needed Pippin right about now
[V] "the unquenchable cheerfulness of"
[V] And Aragorn loves him
[V] and says nice things
[V] which, of course, Merry can't hear
[virumor] bad timing
[V] just Aragorn being strong and silent
[Arco] quote: "'There go three (Th’oden, ’omer, and Merry) that I
(Aragorn) love, and the smallest not the least. He knows not to what
end he rides; yet if he knew, he still would go on.'"
[Rednell[work]] that is very complimentary
[V] but he doesn't say that sort of thing directly, he says it to
[V] seems he is more comfortable with his own
[Rednell[work]] I think I will leave off here and next week we
can get into Aragorn's journey into the paths of the dead.
[V] bye Arco
[V] can I ask a question next week by proxy?
[Rednell] we can go on if everyone wants to.
[virumor] that's after meeting with halbarad and co, back to
helm's deep + palantir duel, ’owyn stuff
[V] we haven't got there yet though
[Rednell] Why does Aragorn decide to leave the Eomer and Theoden?
[V] he looks in the stone of orthanc
[virumor] because he will be too late
[V] Elrond sent a message
[virumor] to catch the corsairs
[virumor] arwen sent a message too
[Rednell] What did Theoden think of Aragorn's plans?
[virumor] he thought he'd never see him again
[V] taking the Path's of the Dead is fatal
[virumor] unless you're isildur's heir
[virumor] or an elf
[V] Theoden didn't believe that
[virumor] he didn't know the entire legend i think
[virumor] elrond knew Malbeth's prophecy
[virumor] Th’oden didn't
[Rednell] no, Theoden couldn't understand Aragorn's thinking at
all. Strange that Eomer accepted it so readily
[V] Eomer said it wal unlikely they would meet again so he didn't
sound too happy about it
[Rednell] or that they would meet at the same battle
[virumor] which aragorn promised
[V] and they do
[virumor] reunited and it feels so good
[V] Aragorn looked in the stone
[Rednell] and what did he reveal?
[virumor] which was his full right
[V] he was the lawful master of the stone like denethor
[virumor] he managed to make the palantir do what he wanted to do
[V] Sauron is not a lawful user
[virumor] denethor neither
[V] he had the right and just about enough strength
[V] and "in the end I wrenched the Stone to my own will. That
alone he will find hard to endure"
[virumor] yes, he reacted kinda rash with his attack on MT
[virumor] no he isn't
[virumor] he's no King
[V] He is
[virumor] denethor isn't
[Rednell] Denethor is a steward and not from the line of Isildur
[virumor] line of Mardil
[V] Unfinished Tales - Palintiri
[V] he is
[virumor] anyway, Denethor was tricked by Sauron
[virumor] he couldn't let the plaantir do what he wanted to do
] [V] he could
[V] but it only sends images
[V] and although Sauron couldn't control those images he could
send some of his power into it causing the deceipt and paranoia
[virumor] sauron looked with him and changed them
[V] Denethor was strengthened by the fact he was a legitimate
user while Sauron wasn't
[virumor] he thought he was one
[V] do you want me to quote from Tolkien
[virumor] denethor wasn't a direct descendant from Isildur
[V] "In the case of Denethor, the Steward was stregthened, even
against Sauron himself, by the fact that the stones were far more
amenable to legitimate users
[V] most of all to true Heirs of Elendil (as Aragorn) but also to
one with inherited authority (as Denethor) as compared to Saruman or
[V] Denethor could use it because he was the current ruler
whether by lineage or inherited stewardship
[Rednell] we know he has Westernesse blood
[virumor] House of Hurin come from Numenor, but not related to
the lords of Anduni’
[virumor] Elendil's line
[virumor] so not related to the Kings
[V] it is the fact that he is the Steward which allows him to use
[virumor] no rightful user
[Rednell] could any numenorean use the planatie?
[V] Am I beating my head against a brick wall here
[V] Tolkien says that Denethor is a rightful user so he is
[V] no arguement
[V] no, Nell, not just anyone
[V] Aragorn has looked in the Palantir prior to taking The Paths
of the Dead
[V] we were 'discussing' use of the Palantiri
[virumor] which took us away from the actual topic without reason
[V] back to ARagorn and the Stone
[Rednell] why did Aragorn believe that the dead would help him?
[Silme] malbeth the seer
[V] did he? Or was it just grasping at straws
[Rednell] who were these dead?
[virumor] men who betrayed Isildur
[V] from the last great battle with Sauron
[Silme] yes, but who were they
[Silme] where were they from?
[virumor] mountain ppl
[V] Men of the Mountains?
[virumor] lived in the white moutntains
[Rednell] what debt did they owe?
[V] they broke their oath
[V] to fight Sauron
[V] and Isildur cursed them
[Rednell] keep going
[virumor] apparently, Isildur had the power of Mandos
[Silme] never really thought about it that way
[Rednell] So why should the dead help Aragorn?
[V] "For this war will last through years uncounted, and you
shall be summoned once again ere the end."
[virumor] i believe those Men also worshipped Sauron during the
[Rednell] yes they did, Virumor
[virumor] "The Tower trembles; to the tombs of kings
[virumor] doom approaches. The Dead awaken;
[virumor] for the hour is come for the oathbreakers..."
[Silme] they help him because they are looking for death, release
from their curse.
[V] but they didn't fight with Sauron they fled
[virumor] that's from Macbeth
[Silme] so why didn't Sauron exact revenge upon them
[Silme] seems more his way of doing things than an heir of numenor
[virumor] i wonder why they swore an oath to isildur when they
[Silme] or did the curse placed by isildur have something to do
with his possession of the ring
[Rednell] good questions
[virumor] he cursed them before the battle
[Silme] he did?
[virumor] i think
[Silme] what on earth for?
[virumor] because they didn't want to march with him?
[virumor] and just stayed home.. dunno
[V] They swore allegiance to Isildur before Sauron grew in might
[virumor] at the end of the second age
[virumor] Sauron was already big then
[Silme] so they were playing both sides of the fence?
[Silme] hedging their bets?
[virumor] it's confusing
[Silme] I'd be curious to know for sure at what point Isildur
[virumor] maybe isildur forced them
[Silme] just because of the ring.
[Rednell] yes, "the king of the mountain sswore allegiance to him
in the befinning of the realm of Gondor. Btu when Sauron returned and
grew in might again, Isilfur soummoned the Men of the Mountains to
fulfill their oath and they would not for they ahd worshipped Sarron in
the Dark Years
[virumor] swear an oath, or i wipe you out
[Silme] can any one find when the curse was placed?
[virumor] i wonder how he got the power to curse someone
[V] It says in ROTK that they swore allegiance............ But
when Sauron returned and grew in might again Isildur summoned the Men
of the Mountains to fulfil their oath and they would not"
[Silme] me too, vir. that's why I'm wondering if the ring played
a roll in it
[V] oaths were very serious things
[Silme] the "undead" type thing. wraiths....etc
[V] look at the oath that Feanor took
[Rednell] I think the curse was placed on them after they refused
to fight with the numenoreans
[virumor] that sounds more logical
[virumor] "i'm back"
[virumor] something like that
[virumor] well, the curse was predestined then
[virumor] since the dead would help aragorn 3000 years later
[Silme] hmmm again
[Rednell] "this curse I aly upon thee and thy folk: to rest never
until your oath is fulfilled
[Silme] when was that?
[virumor] feanor's oath is differetn
[Silme] how so?
[virumor] he swore on manwe and varda,
[virumor] and on eru himself
[V] must have been during the war because it says they fled
before the wrrath of isildur and did not dare to go forth to war on
[virumor] could be before or after
[Rednell] In the curse he says the King of the Mountain would be
the last king.
[virumor] maybe an oath is sacred , if you break one, you're
[virumor] so the curse was just a kind reminder of that
[Rednell] I think Isildur has maiar blood too from way back,
[virumor] from Elros
[Rednell] that should make an oath pretty serious business
[virumor] i think they had to swear by Eru and the Valar or
[virumor] kinda big
[Rednell] well, certainly turned out to be a biggie
[virumor] well, it turned out well in the end
[Rednell] Anyway, moving right along
[Rednell] I can see why Eowyn thought that Aragorn fancied her
when she saw them coming to Edoras
[virumor] 'And if the West prove mightier than thy Black Master,
this curse I lay upon thee and thy folk...'
[virumor] Isildur did it BEFORE
[virumor] anyway : moving on ok
[virumor] hmm, why did ’owyn think that?
[virumor] you mean to Dunharrow?
[V] she thought he had gone to Edoras for her, that he had made a
[virumor] because she thought she came there only for her?
[virumor] that was Dunharrow
[virumor] but then Aragorn crushed her dreams
[Rednell] sorry, Dunharrow
[Rednell] yes, he did, but in a kindly way
[V] sorry Dunharrow
[virumor] i think he wasn't busy with Eowyn's feelings at that
[virumor] more with the path that lie before him
[V] he did start of with a compliment
[virumor] yeh, no man would blablabla such a trip as wasted
[virumor] or something
[V] Sometimes they call each other Lady and Lord then all of a
sudden, under pressure, it is Aragorn and Eowyn
[virumor] hmm Aragorn calls her Eowyn?
[virumor] don't recall that
[V] it's a bit cruel to Eowyn but he says....
[virumor] is it with the cage-conversation?
[V] " I do not choose paths of peril, Eowyn. Were I to go where
my heart dwells, far in the north I would now be wandering in the fair
valley of Rivendell."
[Rednell] I do not chose paths of peril, Eowyn
[virumor] nice line
[V] then we get the shieldmaiden bit
[virumor] and then she touched his arm
[virumor] after that line
[Rednell] yep and the cage
[virumor] nice conversation
[V] she thinks ARagorn is a bit of a chauvanist
[Rednell] not in a derogatory way though
[virumor] i guess so
[Rednell] she doesn't give up easy, I will say that for her
[V] "All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your
part is in the house."
[Rednell] that would seem so. He was rather condecending
[virumor] nah he just reminded her htat she had to do what
Th’oden asked her to do
[Rednell] about the brave women saving the homefront
[virumor] lead the ppl after he went
[V] She certainly begs to go
[Rednell] on her knees no less
[virumor] even on her knees, next morning
[Rednell] why do you think this is so important to her?
[V] She wants to be a part of the battle, she sees anything else
[V] and she has little hope so why not die in battle
[V] and she fancies Aragorn
[virumor] maybe she thinks everything will fail, so she wants to
die in battle too
[virumor] and perhaps she wants to be at Aragorn's side too - as
she thinks he'll die in the paths of the dead
[virumor] that kinda freaked her out
[V] she sees something in him and wants to be a part of whatever
[Rednell] I don't think her fancination with Aragorn has anything
to do with her desire to do battle.
[virumor] and maybe from when she was lil, she wanted to do the
same things as her brother, fighting and such
[virumor] and now she has the opportunity to do so, during the
war of the ring
[Rednell] that's possible.
[V] She says "they go only because they would not be parted from
thee - because they love thee."
[virumor] nah, i meant aragorn leaves and rejected her, so she
searches death in battle
[V] seems she wants to go with him but whether it is love in the
romantic sense or just love of someone so great....
[V] oh I see what you mean Vir.
[virumor] didn't Faramir say that to her?
[V] I think that may have beenn part of it but I think she is
just so alone and depressed she can't see anything beyond the battle
[V] and if everyone is going to die she wants to die in battle
[virumor] well everyone she cared for leaves, and she stays
[V] Faramir say what?
[Rednell] she probably sees more honour in that
[V] Honour is very strong among the Rohirrin
[virumor] the fact that she sough death in battle because aragorn
onlh gave her pity
[Rednell] yes, and Faramir said that the women were as brave in
battle as the men, so some of them must have fought
[virumor] he did?
[Rednell] I think so.
[virumor] i don't recall that
[virumor] to frodo and sam.. hmm, could be
[virumor] i thought he only said that men and women were equally
brave or something
[virumor] but that's kinda the same
[V] he did say it to Eowyn
[V] "But when he gave you only understanding and puty then you
desired to have nothing unless a brave death in battle."
[V] pity not puty
[V] yes I remember Faramir saying something like that to Frodo
about the women of Rohan
[V] just as well, since the Riders of Rohan in the film were women
[virumor] aragorn doesn't seem very surprised when he hears that
Eowyn lies ill in the houses of healing
[V] we are jumping ahead a bit........
[virumor] eh, they were?
[Rednell] just a bit.
[virumor] Eomer left with his harem
[virumor] nice way to pass a banishment
[virumor] i keep on getting surprised
[Rednell] How do Gimli and Legolas feel about entering the Paths
of the Dead?
[virumor] legolas doesn't fear ghosts of men
[virumor] gimli is scared to enter a cave for the first time
[V] Elronds sons went with them through the paths of the dead but
only Legolas is mentioned as the elf
[virumor] well technically, they're half-elves
[virumor] they haven't made their choice yet
[V] still elves
[virumor] in a way
[V] as they all live in ME still
[V] surely it was only if they chose to stay while Elrond went
would they be mortal
[Rednell] Are they ever referred to as elves or only as the sons
[virumor] never as elves, i think
[virumor] so it's no biggie
[V] no, not as elves
[Rednell] I don't recall them being referred to as Elves, never
as half-elven either. Just by name
[virumor] ony Elrond was called half-elf in the book
[Rednell] how does Legolas describe the Dead
[V] who was the sleleton they found
[virumor] son of Brego
[V] thank you
[virumor] Brego not the horse from the movies of course..
[Rednell] what does Aragorn promise the Dead?
[virumor] that they will be released after they fulfill their
[V] and have peace
[Rednell] how did he prove who he was? [virumor] banner
[virumor] i guess..
[V] it was black
[virumor] he unfolded it at the stone of Erech
End of #bilbos-study buffer Sun Feb 22 20:35:16 2004
Start of #bilbos-study buffer: Sun Mar 07 19:25:10 2004 [17:14] * Now talking in #bilbos-study
[17:14] * Topic is 'Welcome to the Planet-Tolkien Classroom. If we do not
have a class discussion going on at the moment join us in #tolkien '
[17:14] * Set by Rednell on Sun Sep 07 21:27:18
[17:14] * ChanServ sets mode: +o Rednell
[17:27] [Rednell] has everyone read The Muster of Rohan and The Seige of
[17:27] [Vee] yes
[17:32] [Rednell] When I read these chapters what stood out most was the
contrast between Denethor and Theoden
[17:34] [Vee] I noticed the relationship between Denethor and Gandalf as
[17:34] [Rednell] indeed quite a strain there.
[17:34] [Vee] Denethor I think saw himself as more noble and kingly than
[17:35] [Rednell] strange since he was not a king
[17:35] [Vee] yet he seemed to scorn that kinglyness in Faramir
[17:35] [Rednell] Let's start with Theoden and Merry.
[17:35] [Vee] Theoden was born in Gondor wasn't he?
[17:35] [Vee] ok sorry
[17:36] [virumor] his mother came from Lossarnach, that's all i know
[17:36] [Rednell] Merry was lonely and unhappy. Do you think Theoden
[17:36] [Vee] I'm sure he was born in Gondor
[17:36] [Vee] sorry
[17:36] [virumor] it's possible
[17:37] [Vee] He may have seen that but I think he was genuinely
interested in Merry and the Shire
[17:37] * Delpen is now known as Delp|sleeping
[17:37] [Delp|sleeping] ok, goodnight
[17:38] [Vee] They did a lot of talking on the journey
[17:39] [Rednell] I do think he was interested in sharing the stories for
sure. It seemed that he usually called on Merry to ride beside him when
he was feeling his lowest
[17:39] [Vee] Interesting that Eomer suggested he stay at Edoras until the
war is over
[17:39] [Vee] he being Theoden
[17:40] [Rednell] yes, but I think that was out of love
[17:40] [Rednell] Theoden certainly displays very keen perception
[17:41] [Vee] Interesting that if he had he would have lived
[17:41] [Rednell] How did Theoden react to Eomer's suggestion
[17:42] [Vee] he saw that even if he stayed behind it would be no good if
the war was lost
[17:43] [Rednell] he did.
[17:43] [Vee] and that there was a good chance he would die fighting
[17:43] [Rednell] yes, he mentions that in more than one place.
[17:43] [Rednell] "Speak not the words of Wormtongue in my old ears"
[17:44] [Rednell] what did you think of that as a response?
[17:44] [virumor] it showed he was reluctant to go to the battle
[17:44] [virumor] in my opinion
[17:44] [Rednell] I thought the opposite, actually.
[17:45] [Delp|sleeping] I think he felt shame
[17:45] [Vee] he didn't want to be persuaded against doing what was right
[17:45] [Vee] he didn't want the easy way out
[17:45] [Delp|sleeping] because he was controlled by da Snake man
[17:45] [Rednell] That is a good point, Delp
[17:45] [Delp|sleeping] he tried to show that he still CAN fight
[17:45] [Rednell] There did seem to be a sense of bitterness in that
[17:46] [Vee] making his own choices
[17:46] [Rednell] yes, that is a good point too Vee
[17:46] [Rednell] Something he didn't offer to Eowyn or Merry
[17:47] [Vee] Eomer should have tried reverse psychology
[17:47] [virumor] like i said, i think he was reluctant to go
[17:47] [virumor] nothing could persuade him, imho
[17:47] [Vee] Eowyn was a woman and Merry too small to fight
[17:48] [Vee] and both, it seems, were part of the prophecy re: The Witch
[17:48] [virumor] i'm not sure what your point is, v
[17:49] [Vee] neither were considered able enough to fight - one being a
woman, one being too small. Yet neither were men and so they ended up
fulfilling the prophecy - mainly Eoqyn but Merry helped
[17:50] [Rednell] we don't know that at this point in the story, however
[17:50] [Rednell] Why do you suppose Eowyn lied to Eomer when he asked
[17:50] [virumor] did she lie?
[17:50] [virumor] i thought she just pointed towards dwimordene
[17:50] [virumor] or something
[17:50] [Vee] she said she didn't know where he had gone
[17:51] [Rednell] right Vee
[17:51] [Vee] but Theoden knew anyway
[17:51] [Rednell] We see Theoden's perceptiveness again
[17:51] [virumor] she pointed towards the road to the paths of the dead
[17:52] [Rednell] only after Theoden guessed that she was not telling the
[17:52] [virumor] strange
[17:53] [Vee] why was she called a Shieldmaiden? What did they do?
[17:53] [virumor] maybe she was so confused and hurt that she didn't want
to talk about it
[17:53] [virumor] they acted as human shields
[17:53] [Vee] or she didn't want Theoden to be concerned
[17:53] [Rednell] that could be
[17:53] [Vee] Strange that she should be called a Shieldmaiden and not
allowed to fight
[17:54] [virumor] maybe it's just a title
[17:54] [Vee] possibly
[17:54] [Vee] she had armour and stuff so maybe it was tradition and title
[17:55] [Vee] Nobody seemed to have much faith in Aragorn surviving the
Paths of the Dead
[17:56] [virumor] they didn't know the prophecy of Malbeth i guess
[17:56] [Rednell] I don't know.
[17:56] [Rednell] When I read "My heart tells me that I shall not see him
again", I thought Theoden was referring to his own death
[17:57] [virumor] that's possible
[17:57] [Vee] he knew the odds were against them
[17:58] [Rednell] he did, yes.
[17:58] [virumor] Th’oden coming back to me, is against the odds
[17:58] [Rednell] What about when the messenger from Gondor arrives.
[17:59] [Rednell] What was Theoden's reaction?
[17:59] [virumor] hmm, he was a bit shocked
[17:59] [virumor] long time since the Red Arrow came to Rohan
[18:00] [Vee] I don't think he was very surprised
[18:01] [Vee] disturbed though
[18:01] [Rednell] yes, disturbed would be closer I think
[18:02] [Vee] (can we not forget the pukel-men? I like them)
[18:02] [virumor] we're already past that
[18:02] [Vee] yes but we didn't mention them
[18:02] [virumor] just a couple of statues
[18:03] [Rednell] we will go back to them
[18:03] [Vee] k
[18:03] [Vee] Talking about Theoden sensing his own death........
[18:03] [Rednell] While talking to the messenger, Theoden is suspicious
[18:03] [Vee] when Merry mentions riding with him on the Paths of the Dead
he says "Speak not words of omen"
[18:04] [Vee] why was he suspicious?
[18:04] [Vee] ah yes
[18:04] [Vee] The Lord of MT knows more than he sets in his message
[18:05] [Vee] one of many hints about Denethor and the Palantiri
[18:05] [Rednell] yes, I really find Theoden very preceptive.
[18:06] [Vee] except when it somes to Eowyn and Merry
[18:07] [Vee] although he was aware of how she felt about Aragorn
[18:07] [Rednell] I think he knew more than he let on. Afterall, he knew
she was lying about not knowing where Aragorn had gone
[18:08] [Vee] but I don't think he knew she intended fighting
[18:09] [Vee] Theeoden makes several references to his possible death
[18:09] [Rednell] Again, I think he knew her heart
[18:10] [Rednell] He just felt he had the situation in hand. He
underestimated eowyn's determination and cunning
[18:10] [Vee] He knew she wanted to fight she begged him
[18:10] [Vee] yes
[18:10] [Vee] he assumed she would obey him
[18:10] [virumor] did eowyn beg Th’oden to fight?
[18:11] [Vee] er maybe not
[18:12] [Vee] she seems to let everyone else know what she wants except
[18:12] [Vee] she begged Aragorn
[18:12] [virumor] i think Hama said 'lady eowyn can lead us everybody
[18:12] [virumor] th’oden didn't even think of her... nice uncle
[18:12] [virumor] srry - off topic
[18:13] [Rednell] yes, that is true
[18:14] [Rednell] and it is not really off topic as we are discussing the
relationship between Theoden and Eowyn
[18:14] [virumor] ok
[18:15] [virumor] so th’oden didn't really see ’owyn as a leader or as
something strong enough to fight
[18:16] [Vee] he id say that Merry should serve her "who will govern the
folk in my stead"
[18:16] [Rednell] or could it be that they have a patriarcial society?
[18:16] [virumor] don't know
[18:16] [Rednell] only after she was given that position at Hama's
[18:17] [Vee] And she waited at Edoras
[18:17] [virumor] the women were trained to fight too.. at least that's
what's said in the movies
[18:17] [Vee] looking after the people
[18:17] [virumor] but Faramir mentions it too so i guess it was like that
[18:17] [Vee] but we are not talking movies
[18:17] [virumor] oh srry then i'm leaving
[18:17] [Vee] although Faramir did say the women were tall and strong or
[18:18] [Rednell] yes, he did say that they were as brave as the men, I
[18:18] [Vee] I shall get confused if we start talking about the movie
[18:18] [Rednell] Why did he want Merry to stay behind with Eowyn?
[18:18] [Vee] (In the movies the Riders of Rohan WERE women)
[18:19] [virumor] he was unfit to fight
[18:19] [Rednell] in what way, Virumor?
[18:19] [Vee] too small
[18:19] [Vee] he would be a burden
[18:19] [Rednell] what was Merry's reaction?
[18:19] [virumor] he can't reide a horse
[18:19] [Vee] not a full sized one
[18:20] [Vee] Merry felt ashamed not to go to battle
[18:20] [Vee] and he wanted to stay with Theoden
[18:20] [Rednell] do you really think it was shame?
[18:20] [Vee] all his friends had gone to battle, he says
[18:20] [Rednell] I know he says that but is it really?
[18:20] [Vee] he felt he was the only one not doing anything
[18:20] [Vee] I think so
[18:21] [Vee] but I could be wrong
[18:21] [Rednell] He offered his sword to Theoden, I think he feels that
his offer was not taken seriously
[18:22] [virumor] he felt useless
[18:22] [Rednell] indeed
[18:22] [Vee] when he offered it he expected to stay with Theoden until it
was all ove
[18:22] [Vee] over
[18:22] [Vee] not to be left behind like 'baggage'
[18:22] [Rednell] Who ordered the armour for Merry?
[18:22] [Vee] Aragorn
[18:23] [Vee] which is interesting.......... why, what did he suspect? Or
was he doing it so that Merry had some protection for whatever happened
[18:23] [Rednell] His intent must have been for Merry to go to Gondor
[18:23] [Rednell] remember, Aragorn knew a lot more about the abilities of
the Hobbits then Theoden
[18:24] [Vee] But he was in Theoden's care and if Theoden said he couldn't
go then he couldn't
[18:24] [Vee] or maybe Aragorn knew that somehow Merry and maybe Eeowyn
would fight no matter what
[18:25] [virumor] he didn't know that
[18:25] [Vee] stubbornness
[18:25] [Rednell] When Dernhelm rides up and picks up Merry and hides him
under his cloak, he was surprised that Merry didnot know who he was. I
don't wish to reveal anything now, but I just found it an interesting
[18:25] [Rednell] given what we will discover later
[18:26] [Vee] aha
[18:26] [Rednell] ok, the pukel men
[18:26] [Vee] I think they are a sad reminder
[18:26] [Rednell] what did Merry feel when he saw them
[18:27] [Vee] pity
[18:27] [Vee] and wonder
[18:27] [Rednell] why pity, do you think?
[18:27] [Vee] they looked sad
[18:28] [Vee] they were worn down
[18:28] [Vee] and ignored
[18:28] [Vee] a sad reminder of something that Merry didn't know
[18:29] [Rednell] indeed, a sad reminder of a nation whose purpose is lost.
[18:29] [Vee] and yet they meet remnants of the Drug later
[18:29] [Al`Ashrad] i didnt do it this time?
[18:29] [Vee] Drug or Druedain
[18:30] [Rednell] The statues were very worn, however, what feature
[18:30] [Vee] eyes
[18:30] [Rednell] interesting
[18:30] [Vee] dark holes of their eyes
[18:31] [Vee] they had intersting eyes
[18:31] [Rednell] implies emptiness and a real sense of loss. The eyes are
so revealing normally
[18:31] [Vee] yes
[18:31] [Vee] and it made them look sad
[18:32] [Rednell] and for good reason, a lost civilization.
[18:32] [Rednell] Let's move on to Denethor.
[18:32] [Rednell] Denethor and Pippin. In contrast to Theoden and Merry.
[18:33] [Vee] scary stuff - Pippin wasn't comfortable with Denethor
[18:33] [Vee] unlike Merry with Theoden
[18:33] [Vee] again there are hints that Denethor knows more about what is
going on than he should
[18:33] [Rednell] this is true. Denethor sure didn't convey an auora of
[18:33] [Rednell] What does he ask Pippin to do?
[18:34] [Vee] to be his esquire
[18:34] [Vee] wait on him, run errands and sing
[18:34] [Rednell] yes.
[18:35] [virumor] denethor is cold-hearted
[18:35] [Vee] yes and he says about their vigil being thankless
[18:35] [Rednell] Merry does much the same for Theoden, but I get the
impression that Denethor uses Pippin for his own entertainment while
Theoden wants to be part of Merry's world.
[18:36] [Vee] which seems to be a dig at hobbits
[18:36] [virumor] and the only hot spot of his heart turned into ice when
he learned the death of his firstborn
[18:36] [Vee] Denethor makes a comments about learning what he is fit for
[18:36] [Vee] seems dismissive of Pippin
[18:37] [Rednell] The only thing that is similar with Merry and Pippin is
that they both feel useless
[18:37] [virumor] denethor is a bit grim, yes
[18:38] [Rednell] What kind of effect does the sound of the flying beasts
have on Pippin?
[18:38] [Vee] Merry is probably lonlier than Pippin because Pippin has
[18:38] [virumor] the flying Nazg’l induce fear
[18:38] [virumor] their major weapon
[18:39] [Rednell] right away he is reminded of their flee from the black
riders in the shire.
[18:39] [Rednell] does Pippin really have Gandalf?
[18:39] [Vee] but it has grown in poweer and hatred
[18:39] [Vee] "poisonous despair"
[18:39] [Vee] Gandalf is too busy to spend time with Pippin but he is there
[18:40] [Rednell] doesn't offer much comfort for Pippin.
[18:40] [Vee] but more than Merry gets
[18:41] [virumor] he only has Bergil and Beregond
[18:41] [Al`Ashrad] with great power... there is great responciablities
[18:41] [Vee] he has no one from the fellowship
[18:41] [Rednell] this is true, Vee
[18:41] [Rednell] What does Pippin think of Faramir?
[18:41] [Vee] Pippin trusts Gandalf
[18:41] [Vee] ah my favourite
[18:42] [Vee] he sees one of the Kings of Men born into a later time
[18:42] [virumor] i think Faramir reminds him of Aragorn
[18:42] [Vee] A captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even
under the shadow........
[18:42] [Vee] Certainly there is a resemblance to Aragorn as far as kingly
[18:42] [Vee] "high nobility"
[18:43] [Vee] that speech of Pippin's says so much about Faramir
[18:43] [virumor] i have a dream, that one day Faramir will be like
[18:44] [Vee] He is enough like him already
[18:44] [Vee] but Faramir accepts that there will be The King and it is
his place to serve
[18:44] [Vee] whereas Denethor resents
[18:44] [Vee] it
[18:45] [Rednell] "touching with wisdom and sadness of the Eldar Race"
[18:45] [Vee] Is Denethor jealous of how the people of Gondor love Faramir
[18:45] [Rednell] How do we know that Denethor resents Faramir?
[18:45] [Vee] because he says so
[18:45] [Vee] he accused Faramir of being kingly and gracious
[18:46] [Vee] and we don't hear the people shouting praise at Denethor
[18:46] [virumor] the ppl of MT always put Boromir first too
[18:46] [Rednell] what did Denthor feel about Boromir's death?
[18:46] [virumor] after Boromir's demise, they put too much of their hopes
[18:46] [Vee] and Denethor preferred Boromir and belittled Faramir so it
must have annoyed him that the people loved Faramir regardless of how
Denethor saw him
[18:47] [virumor] Denethor loved Faramir too
[18:47] [Rednell] this is true.
[18:47] [Vee] Boromir was a hero to them
[18:47] [Vee] he was a warrior through and thorugh
[18:47] [Rednell] How can you profess to love your son when you opening
wish that he had died in his brother's place?
[18:48] [Vee] Gandalf said that he would realise that love before the end
[18:48] [Vee] and in a way he did
[18:48] [Vee] when he realised he was losing his other son he was
griefstricken and madness took him
[18:48] [Rednell] that comes later
[18:48] [virumor] he thought Boromir would have brought him the Ring
[18:48] [virumor] that's why he said he wanted to switch places
[18:49] [virumor] he thought Faramir bereft MT of victory
[18:49] [Rednell] and would Boromir have brought this thing?
[18:49] [Rednell] I noticed that it was never referred to as the Ring
[18:50] [Vee] Gandalf says no
[18:50] [Vee] Isildur's Bane
[18:50] [Rednell] what say you?
[18:50] [virumor] even if it would be buried under Mindolluin, it would've
melted Denethor's brain
[18:50] [Vee] sorry, thinking out loud
[18:50] [Vee] I think Boromir would have given in to the ring's power
[18:51] [virumor] he did in FOTR
[18:51] [virumor] whilst he didn't even wore it once
[18:51] [Rednell] indeed
[18:51] [Vee] yes, I mean had he got his hands on it he would have worn it
[18:51] [virumor] that goes without saying
[18:51] [Vee] he would not have given it to Denethor
[18:52] [Vee] I do like the exchanges between Denethor and Gandalf - they
are well matched
[18:52] [Rednell] he probably would not have returned to Gondor
[18:52] [Rednell] they are indeed. Gandalf really keeps his cool
[18:52] [virumor] he would've Nell
[18:52] [virumor] he saw a vision of armies under his banner
[18:52] [virumor] daddy would've liked that i bet
[18:53] [Rednell] He saw those visions, but remember that the Ring would
be in control
[18:53] [Rednell] Would Daddy have let Boromir keep the baubble?
[18:53] [Vee] thinkgs may have changed, he may even have challenged
Denethor for the rule of Gondor
[18:54] [Vee] Daddy wouldn't have been able to stop him
[18:54] [Vee] once he had the ring it would have been his precious
[18:54] [virumor] daddy would've given his precious son full control i
[18:55] [virumor] and if daddy wouldn't have liked that.. then daddy would
be put after lock and key
[18:55] [Vee] yes
[18:55] [Vee] because Boromir would have known what was best
[18:56] [Rednell] Theoden reveals that he already knows some of the things
that Gandalf tells him.
[18:56] [Vee] I wonder how????
[18:56] [virumor] he knew Aragorn when the latter served in MT
[18:56] [Rednell] What is the difference between Theoden's perceptiveness
[18:57] [Vee] Theoden's was because of his contact with people while
Denethor sat alone in a tower, apart from his people
[18:57] [Vee] his was a false perception, clouded by Sauron
[18:57] [Rednell] indeed
[18:57] [virumor] Denethor only looked at wha twas best for Gondor
[18:58] [virumor] all races were threatened, but he saw it as only Gondor
[18:58] [virumor] he was biased
[18:58] [Vee] very
[18:58] [Rednell] Given that thought, do you think Denethor would have
come to the aid of Theoden if the roles were reversed?
[18:58] [Vee] ha
[18:58] [Vee] no
[18:58] [virumor] if he had sworn it, yes
[18:58] [Vee] probably not
[18:58] [Vee] had he?
[18:59] [Rednell] There was a pact between Gondor and Rohan
[18:59] [Vee] I don't think he would be as compliant as Theoden. Denethor
would have really grumbled whereas Theoden just got on with it
[18:59] [Rednell] It was more for the benefit of Gondor, I think.
[18:59] [Vee] BEcause they were on the borders of Mordor?
[19:00] [Rednell] yes, and Gondor had given the lands to Rohan
[19:00] [Rednell] Rohan had come to the aid of Gondor before.
[19:00] [virumor] at the Celebrant
[19:00] [Vee] ah
[19:00] [virumor] that's why they recieved Calenardhon
[19:00] [Rednell] yes
[19:00] [Vee] so although Rohan had a King it was Gondo that was the
strongest and more important country
[19:01] [Vee] And Theoden was born in Gondor - appendix
[19:02] [Vee] so he must have felt a kinship with Gondor
[19:02] [virumor] his mother was Morwen from Lossarnach, yes
[19:02] [Vee] yep
[19:02] [virumor] Th’oden is just a friendly old man
[19:03] [Vee] friendly?
[19:03] [virumor] Denethro isn't
[19:03] [virumor] that's it
[19:03] [Vee] he is a much loved and strong leader
[19:03] [Vee] ah
[19:03] [Vee] no Denethor is mean
[19:04] [Vee] Denethor is also bitter about only being the Steward and not
[19:05] [virumor] that i don't think
[19:05] [Rednell] I don't know. Wasn't it Boromir who felt that way and
his father told him that their place was to remain Steward until the
[19:05] [Rednell] I agree with Virumor.
[19:07] [Rednell] What do the people think when Denethor sends Faramir off
[19:07] [virumor] i think he mocks Aragorn as King because they were
rivals when Aragorn served in MT. Denethor was jealous because Thorongil
was much loved by his father, Ecthelion II
[19:08] [virumor] they think Denethor is asking too much of Faramir,
pushing him to the limit, etc
[19:08] [Vee] Denethor says before he dies "I am the Steward of the HOuse
of Anarion. I will not step down to be the dotard chamberlain of an
upstart. Even were his claim proved to me, still he comes but of the
line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, last of a ragged house
long bereft of lordship and dignity."
[19:08] [Vee] sorry.... bit behind
[19:09] [virumor] he knew very well that it was Aragorn, his old chum
[19:10] [Rednell] aha, thanks Vee
[19:10] [Vee] Aragorn wasn't good enough
[19:10] [Vee] he thought
[19:11] [virumor] i think it has more to do with jealousy and rivalry
[19:11] [virumor] he knew Aragorn's capabilities were the highest
[19:12] [virumor] stupid thought of denethor, anyway
[19:12] [virumor] he would still be very important, if aragorn is king
[19:12] [Rednell] he would be jealous, no doubt. I wonder if it would be
possible if a family had held the position in place of "royalty" for so
many generations to give up the throne.
[19:12] [virumor] but he blew it
[19:12] [Vee] but he wouldn't be in charge
[19:12] [Vee] he liked to be in charge
[19:12] [Vee] to rule
[19:12] [Rednell] just a bit egotistical
[19:14] [Vee] just a bit
[19:14] [Vee] and dotty through using the P
[19:14] [Rednell] where is the first hint that we see there may be a
[19:15] [Vee] there are lots ofhints
[19:15] [virumor] he throws it at Faramir as the latter is leaving the
[19:15] [Vee] don't know which is the first
[19:15] [virumor] "i have seen many things"
[19:16] [virumor] "i already know lots and i don't want to be used for "
[19:17] [virumor] also the light thru the window of the highest chamber in
the Tower of Ecthelion
[19:17] [Rednell] "pale light that gleamed and flickered from a narrow
[19:17] [Vee] "Pippin marvelled at the amount that the Lord seemed to know
about a people that lived far away, though it must , he thought, be many
years since Denethor himself had ridden abroad"
[19:18] [Rednell] Denethor did not hide his secret very well
[19:18] [Vee] I don't suppose many people in MT would know what a Palantir
[19:19] [virumor] i wonder if Faramir suspected what his father did
[19:19] [Vee] how could he not notice 'something' odd
[19:19] [Rednell] and those who may have known the old stories would have
thought them long lost or legends
[19:19] [Rednell] His father made sure he wasn't around much
[19:20] [virumor] didn't Boromir hint something bout this too? i think he
says somewhere 'my father sees far' or something
[19:20] [virumor] not sure
[19:20] [Vee] not sure who says it
[19:21] [Rednell] it was back in the 1st book, of course.
[19:22] [virumor] i'm not sure but I think Boromir mentions this at the
Council of Elrond
[19:22] [Rednell] that would be the logical place
[19:23] [virumor] yes, i can't seem any ohter place where he would've
[19:24] [Rednell] I think I will end for tonight and we can pick up at the
end of the chapter next week, as well as, The Ride of the Rohirrim
[19:24] [Vee] ok
[19:24] [Vee] thanks Nell
[19:24] [Rednell] then we get to meet Ghan-buri-Ghan.
[19:24] [Vee] ooooh yes
[19:25] [Vee] who gurgles
[19:25] [virumor] Khan-Genghis-Khan
End of #bilbos-study buffer Sun Mar 07 19:25:10 2004
Start of #bilbos-study buffer: Sun Mar 14 18:16:57 2004 [15:59] * Now talking in #bilbos-study
[15:59] * Topic is 'Welcome to the Planet-Tolkien Classroom. If we do not
have a class discussion going on at the moment join us in #tolkien '
[15:59] * Set by Rednell on Sun Sep 07 21:27:18
[15:59] * ChanServ sets mode: +o Rednell
[16:41] [Rednell] anyway, we left off with Denethor sending his beloved
son back to do battle with the enemy
[16:41] [virumor] yes, son had to prove himself for daddy, apparently.
[16:41] [virumor] or daddy wanted to get rid of him.
[16:44] [Rednell] a messenger comes back with the news that the enemy is
stronger and their feared leader is back
[16:44] [V] right
[16:45] [V] wasn't that Gandalf
[16:45] [V] ok, sorry, was ahead of myself
[16:45] [Rednell] I was thinking of the enemies captain. The Lord of the
[16:46] [V] yes, sorry I thought it was the bit where Pippin mentions the
dark lord .....
[16:46] [V] it seems pretty hopeless
[16:46] [Rednell] The citizens of Gondor were not really feeling too
threatened of the catapults as they thought they were too far away to do
any real damage and Minas Tirith is well fortified.
[16:47] [virumor] the walls are of the same material as Orthanc, not?
[16:47] [virumor] unbreakable
[16:47] [virumor] and very high.
[16:47] [V] yes, or similar
[16:47] [Rednell] but then it occurs to some that the enemy has a weapon
that has brough low many strong places since the world began.
[16:48] [virumor] fear
[16:48] [V] "his own fold would slay themselves at his bidding"
[16:49] [V] folk
[16:49] [V] that's fear for you
[16:50] [virumor] ?
[16:50] [Rednell] fear turned out to be the greatest weapon but at the
time they were worried about hunger
[16:50] [V] they were cut off from supply routes
[16:50] [Rednell] They didn't bank on the power of the catapults or the
[16:52] [Rednell] it was then that dread and despair set into the people.
[16:53] [virumor] don't forget the Mordor smog.
[16:53] [V] fire in the trenches
[16:53] [virumor] which enhanced that feeling.
[16:53] [V] flinging dead bodies
[16:53] [Rednell] indeed
[16:53] [Rednell] not bodies, V
[16:53] [V] explosives fired into the city
[16:53] [V] bits of bodies
[16:53] [Rednell] worse than dead bodies
[16:53] [V] heads
[16:53] [virumor] i thought it were heads.
[16:53] [Rednell] yes, Vir, it was just the heads
[16:54] [V] yeah heads
[16:54] [V] well they are bits of bodies
[16:54] [Rednell] why would that be more effective then flinging in the
[16:55] [V] desecration, mutilations, pitiless
[16:55] [virumor] the enemy wanted to play with the defenders a bit before
they'd crush them. Make them a bit frustrated, as the defenders could
still recognise the faces of their dead compadres.
[16:55] [Rednell] yeah
[16:55] [virumor] faces with the Red Eye marked on it.
[16:55] [virumor] 'don't swear. Sauron is watching you.'
[16:56] [V] and they had died in pain
[16:56] [Rednell] The men who die on the battlefied are often remembered
as dying an honourable death. But this has marred and dishonoured them
and they could be recongized by family and friends.
[16:57] [Rednell] The mark of the eye is just adding insult to injury.
Absolute desecration, as mentioned by V
[16:57] [V] "another weapon swifter than hunger ..... dread and despair"
[16:58] [Rednell] indeed, V
[16:58] [virumor] the 7 plagues of Mordor..
[16:58] [Rednell] 7?
[16:58] [virumor] dunno, just wanted to import a biblical theme. it didn't
[16:59] [Rednell] well, if we look hard enough I am sure we would find it.
Just didn't jump out at me.
[16:59] [Rednell] What did jump out at me, however, is what Pippin
observed in Denethor.
[16:59] [V] which bit?
[16:59] [virumor] i bet he sensed his upcoming desperation.
[17:00] [V] Denethor is strange
[17:00] [virumor] which resulted in insanity.
[17:00] [V] Denethor thinks that Sauron is after him
[17:00] [V] a little bit too self important
[17:00] [Rednell] And as he watched it seemed to him that Denethor grew
old before his eyes, as if something had snapped in his proud will, and
his stern mind was overthrown.
[17:00] [Rednell] sound familiar?
[17:01] [virumor] i think he saw the huge armies of Mordor in his Palant’r.
[17:01] [virumor] he knew that even if they'd be able to stop the first
wave, they were still dead.
[17:01] [V] he knew the Lord of the Nazgul was there
[17:01] [V] he knew before Gandalf gave him the news
[17:01] [Rednell] indeed, but we really don't know anything about the
planatir other than a suspicion at this point
[17:01] [V] he is trying to gode Gandalf
[17:02] [Rednell] I found it interesting that this was the state in which
Gandalf found Theoden
[17:02] [virumor] Gandalf mentions the Witch-King, then Denethor says "Ah,
then you have find your equal" or something.
[17:02] [Rednell] when Theoden was under the spell of Saruman
[17:02] [V] a foe to match you
[17:03] [V] but Denethor isn't under the influence
[17:03] [Rednell] I think he is
[17:03] [V] not really - he is just affected by the strain and by Sauron's
[17:03] [Rednell] and Theoden was under the deception given to him by
[17:04] [V] whereas Theoden was under a spell
[17:04] [virumor] Th’oden was influenced by Wormtongue's poison
[17:04] [virumor] poison being words.
[17:04] [Rednell] yes, virumor
[17:04] [V] well, yes but he was not so able to resist it whereas Denethor
was still in control of himself even if he was going loopy
[17:04] [virumor] not a spell by Saruman like in the movies..
[17:04] [Rednell] and the word "spell" meant "word" in old english
[17:04] [V] no, the words of Saruman
[17:04] [V] he had the voice
[17:05] [virumor] Saruman wasn't at Edoras
[17:05] [Rednell] exactly
[17:05] [V] but Wormtongue was
[17:05] [Rednell] Theoden never heard Saruman's voice
[17:05] [virumor] so, the words of Grima
[17:05] [virumor] not the words of Saruman
[17:05] [V] an agent of Saruman
[17:05] [Rednell] but they were words. Difference is that Sauron used the
palantir to convey the message to Denethor
[17:05] [virumor] Wormtongue, Grima Wormtongue
[17:06] [virumor] Sauron tricked with images i think, images of huge
[17:06] [virumor] he just made his huge armies a bit huger.
[17:06] [Rednell] Both Theoden and Denethor were great men with strong
wills and their wills were broken by deception of the enemy.
[17:08] [virumor] except the fact that Th’oden became lethargic by it,
Denethor went insane.
[17:09] [Rednell] yes, and I think that has more to do with their
[17:09] [V] Denethor resisted more, I think
[17:10] [V] but Theoden managed to fight back
[17:10] [virumor] although Denethor only became insane after Faramir
returned to him in Imrahil's arms.
[17:10] [virumor] that was the straw that broke the camel's back, i guess.
[17:10] [V] I think he was half way there before that
[17:11] [Rednell] he felt that the line of stewards had failed
[17:11] [V] singing looney tunes.....
[17:11] [V] despair, hoplessness........
[17:11] [V] he had no hope left in anyone
[17:11] [virumor] losing Boromir already was a major blow for him, and he
had already lost hope at that point.
[17:11] [Rednell] Theoden also lost his son
[17:11] [virumor] Gandalf he saw as someone who come to topple him of his
[17:12] [Rednell] his only heir
[17:12] [V] and he was jealous of Faramir's trust in Gandalf
[17:12] [virumor] he loved Eomer and Eowyn as much as his son, though.
[17:12] [V] a wizard's pupil
[17:12] [Rednell] remember that Theoden was not exactly a fan of Gandalf's
[17:12] [virumor] yes, and he suspected Gandalf of having something to do
with his son's death.
[17:12] [virumor] "you found it more difficult to influence boromir" or
[17:12] [virumor] he questioned Pippin why Boromir died without help.
[17:13] [V] I thought that was becaue Boromir wasn't interesting in
studying etc like Faramir was.
[17:13] [Rednell] Denethor felt that Mithrandir has poisoned Faramir's
mind with his stories
[17:14] [virumor] that was in that part where Faramir talked bout Frodo
and the ring. Denethor became angry because Faramir looked at Gandalf to
see if he didn't say nething wrong.
[17:14] [Rednell] yes
[17:14] [Rednell] He felt his son looked up to Gandalf more then him and
that was a threat
[17:15] [Rednell] Why did Denethor chose death on the pyre?
[17:15] [virumor] and he thought his son failed him, because he didn't
bring him the Ring. He thought Boromir would've brought him the ring.
[17:15] [virumor] Gandalf angried him there a lot.
[17:15] [V] yes, Gandalf told him that Boromir would NOT have given him
[17:16] [Rednell] yes, because Gandalf told him Boromir would not be able
to resist the power of the Ring and would not hand it over to his father
[17:16] [virumor] Denethor sees the Ring as their only way of surviving
[17:17] [virumor] we can't blame him, a man who has always lived under the
threath of Mordor.
[17:17] [V] so he blames Gandalf does he, for sending the ring with Frodo
[17:17] [virumor] yup, but he blames Faramir more.
[17:17] [V] he doesn't seem to think that anyone else has done much to
fight Mordor except Gondor
[17:17] [virumor] and so he sends his son into a likely death, because he
wants to punish him.
[17:18] [Rednell] because he felt he had more control over Faramir because
he was his son
[17:18] [V] does he want to punish him
[17:18] [virumor] yup, he is a selfish, biased man.
[17:18] [Rednell] he was a bitter man
[17:18] [V] and untrusting
[17:18] [Rednell] indeed.
[17:18] [virumor] he sees Gondor as alone in their fight against Mordor,
with no allies.
[17:18] [virumor] he thinx he's the only one with problems.
[17:19] [V] He says to Pippin that" the Dark Lord will not come save to
triumph over me"
[17:19] [Rednell] well, the messenger hadn't returned from Rohan and the
gates are shut and Gondor completely surrounded, how could any help come?
[17:19] [V] self important
[17:19] [virumor] the messenger was decapitated.
[17:19] [Rednell] why did he chose the pyre as his deathbed?
[17:19] [virumor] Duncan MacLeod passed his way...
[17:19] [V] like the heathenkings of old
[17:19] [virumor] i think because he was totally out of his mind already
on that part..
[17:20] [virumor] he chose to die as a king out of the Black Years.
[17:20] [V] The West has failed, he said
[17:20] [virumor] he thinx they're all gonna die anyway, so he chooses a
[17:20] [V] not very noble imo
[17:21] [V] he may have thought so
[17:21] [Rednell] No long sleep of death embalmed, we will burn like the
heathen kings before ever a ship sailed hither from the west
[17:21] [virumor] noble in the mind of a lunatic, probably.
[17:21] [Rednell] House of Stewards has failed, the West has failed.
[17:21] [V] despair
[17:22] [Rednell] I think he chose the pyre because it he believes it is
the end of the Numenoreans
[17:22] [V] yes, he says his house is ended
[17:22] [Rednell] hence the pyre is symbolic of that end
[17:23] [V] and if Gondor falls then so will the rest of ME so it probably
will be the end of Munenoreans
[17:23] [V] Numenoreans
[17:23] [virumor] but he saw his son still lived, and that gave him a bit
of hope or something, but in the end he still refused to join Gandalf.
[17:23] [V] he was sure that Faramir would die
[17:23] [virumor] Gandalf played the fireguard there.
[17:23] [V] so they might as well die together
[17:24] [Rednell] he saw no hope that his son would survive without
Gandalf's intervention. And he would never want to accept any help from
the Grey Fool
[17:24] [virumor] bad thinking from Denethor
[17:24] [virumor] it was the White Fool..
[17:24] [Rednell] especially for Faramir, the son who he felt was already
under Gandalf's control
[17:25] [virumor] he saw conspiracies everywhere.
[17:25] [virumor] he's a wise fool.
[17:25] [V] Denethor says to Pippin that The fool's hope has failed. The
Enemy has found it. What had he seen in the Palantir?
[17:25] [Rednell] sure, he saw the shadow of those conspiriacies in the
[17:26] [Rednell] I think he had seen the capture of Frodo
[17:26] [virumor] that's possible, or it was Sauron's deceipt again.
[17:26] [V] Yes..... and didn't realise that Sauron hadn't actually got
Frodo or the ring
[17:27] [Rednell] Sauron didn't know that Frodo was the one with the Ring.
He also was lead to believe that Saruman had the Hafling with the Ring
in his clutches
[17:27] [virumor] he saw Aragorn in the palantir, then he thought Aragorn
took the Ring.
[17:27] [V] But Sam had the ring then
[17:27] [virumor] so he started a swift attack on MT.
[17:28] [V] ah, yes.........
[17:28] [Rednell] but that wasn't at this point of the story. It was later
that Aragorn revealed himself to Sauron
[17:28] [virumor] i don't think so.
[17:28] [virumor] he did that when they returned to Helm's deep with
[17:28] [Rednell] oh right, it was before the paths of the dead, wasn't it?
[17:29] [virumor] yes.
[17:29] [Rednell] sorry
[17:29] [Rednell] which would explain why Sauron threw everything he had
[17:30] [virumor] well, actually one a finger from his hand.
[17:30] [virumor] onely*
[17:30] [virumor] figurarly speaking, of course.
[17:30] [Rednell] of course
[17:31] [virumor] yes, Faramir mentioned that Frodo went to Morgul vale.
Maybe Denethor quickly watched in his palantir to see what was gonna
happen there after that conversation..
[17:31] [Rednell] that is a good point
[17:31] [virumor] Sauron was too distracted from watching his borders
because of Aragorn's brilliant trick.
[17:32] [V] If only he had trusted Gandalf and given him information about
[17:32] [Rednell] the trick will be to keep him distracted long enough for
Frodo and Sam to finish the deed.
[17:32] [Rednell] This chapter has a very exciting end.
[17:32] [virumor] yes, that's why they marched to the Morannon. Another
[17:32] [V] oh yes
[17:32] [virumor] Tactical manoeuvres in the Dark.
[17:33] [Rednell] explain the tactical manoeuvres, Vir
by Morannon and Shelob... he didn't need to worry.
[17:34] [virumor] well marching to the Morannon to keep Sauron distracted.
[17:35] [Rednell] and it worked.
[17:36] [Rednell] Do you think the Lord of the Nazgul underestimated
[17:36] [virumor] i think Gandalf would've creamed the Witch-King in less
than a minute.
[17:36] [V] probably
[17:37] [V] he certainly scared of the Nazgul
[17:37] [V] and strictly speaking Gandalf isn't a man
[17:37] [virumor] even Gandalf the Grey could fight off 5 nazg’l at
[17:37] [virumor] with lots of fireworks.
[17:37] [V] so he could fulfill the proppphecy
[17:37] [virumor] and Gandalf the Grey could cream a Balrog, so.
[17:37] [V] so Gandalf the White.........
[17:38] [virumor] would have an easy time
[17:38] [Rednell] Wasn't it dawn when Gandalf and Erkenbrand came to the
rescue at Helm's Deep?
[17:38] [V] although Gandalf admitted to not being sure about that to
[17:38] [V] he said "our trial of strength is not yet come"
[17:39] [Rednell] Tolkien seems to like to use dawn as a setting for new
[17:39] [V] it is
[17:39] [V] the New Day
[17:40] [virumor] hope springs eternal.
[17:40] [Rednell] and of course hope springs eternal for most people
[17:40] [Rednell] great minds think alike
[17:40] [virumor] yup.
[17:40] [Rednell] well, the calvery has arrived!
[17:41] [Rednell] Now on to The Ride of the Rohirrim
[17:41] [Rednell] How is Merry feeling on this journey?
[17:41] [V] not very good
[17:41] [Rednell] why not?
[17:41] [virumor] Merry doesn't feel merry at all.
[17:42] [V] he wondered if Theoden knew he had disobeyed him
[17:42] [Rednell] well, why not, he got his wish, he is riding in the
[17:42] [V] he felt small lonely and unwanted
[17:42] [V] and he was scared
[17:42] [Rednell] still feeling a bit like baggage.
[17:42] [virumor] what would he do in battle.
[17:43] [Rednell] that thought comes to him as it becomes evident that
they will indeed be involved in battle.
[17:43] [V] and he wasn't a tree root
[17:44] [virumor] Treebeard would be proud.
[17:44] [Rednell] At the beginning of the chapter I thought the drums
Merry was hearing were the drums from the battle but they weren't.
[17:44] [V] Wild Men
[17:45] [virumor] nope, the woses communicated thru those signals.
[17:45] [V] yep
[17:45] [Rednell] and what were they communicating?
[17:45] [V] pukel men
[17:45] [virumor] the coordinates of the orcs.
[17:46] [Rednell] What do you think Eomer thought about the wild men?
[17:46] [virumor] he instantly wanted to marry Ghan-buri-Ghan's daughter...
[17:46] [Rednell] ahh, I think he was concerned that she wouldn't have
great math skills.......
[17:47] [virumor] but the woses count everything.
[17:47] [Rednell] Ghan-buri-Ghan was very perceptive.
[17:47] [V] of course
[17:47] [V] Duedain
[17:48] [V] The Rohirren didn't really like the Wild Men though, did they
[17:48] [V] they would hunt them?
[17:49] [Rednell] yes, they did. But the wild men hunted orcs.
[17:49] [V] yes
[17:50] [V] they hated orcs
[17:50] [Rednell] When asked if they would help fight in the war, the wild
men would not but they would help in another way which turned out to be
much more valuable.
[17:50] [virumor] they showed the riders an ancient road.
[17:50] [virumor] towards Mundburg.
[17:50] [V] built by men and forgotten
[17:50] [Rednell] what a blessing that turned out to be
[17:51] [virumor] good timing from Eru..
[17:51] [Rednell] why did the wild men want to help?
[17:51] [Rednell] Eru always had good timing
[17:51] [V] they hated orcs and the black lord etc
[17:51] [V] feared the return of Sauron
[17:52] [Rednell] yep and they wanted to just go back to live in the woods
without anyone bothering them
[17:53] [Rednell] What was Theoden's fear when they found the headless
bodies of the dead Men and their horses?
[17:53] [V] that Denethor wouldn't know they were coming
[17:53] [virumor] MT didn't know they were cmoing.
[17:53] [virumor] or coming, rather.
[17:54] [virumor] would it have made a difference for Denethor's state of
[17:54] [V] probably
[17:55] [V] certainly
[17:56] [Rednell] yes, he feared Denethor's despair
[17:57] [V] but as Eomer said - better late than never
[17:57] [virumor] i think Denethor would've considered it to be hopeless
[17:57] [Rednell] Eomer says: Needs brooks no delay, yet late is better
[17:57] [virumor] don't forget that it was Aragorn's arrival which turned
the tide, not Th’oden.
[17:57] [Rednell] this is true
[17:57] [virumor] or rather, Aragorn further turned the tide that was
turned by Th’oden.
[17:58] [V] They didn't know how Aragorn was going to help, they thought
he would more than likely perish
[17:58] [Rednell] Theoden did surprise the enemy
[17:58] [V] yes, without Aragorn Theoden's contribution may not have made
[17:58] [Rednell] He was a very inspiring leader.
[17:59] [V] but the Rohirren were fantastic in battle
[17:59] [V] I like to think Aragorn needed his help
[17:59] [Rednell] well, had Aragorn been on his own, he would not have
been able to turn the tide either.
[18:00] [V] Theoden was brilliant
[18:00] [virumor] his banner would've scared everyone away. "oh no!!!
[18:00] [virumor] yes, a glorious death.
[18:00] [Rednell] he showed great strength and leadership
[18:00] [virumor] better than stay behind in a cage and wait until all
chance for splendor has gone.
[18:00] [V] if it wasn't for his horse.......
[18:01] [Rednell] I love the poems of the Rohirrim
[18:01] [V] Theoden had often hinted at his more than likely death as we
said last eek
[18:01] [Rednell] you can feel the rythym of the horse hoofs
[18:01] [V] just flayed through the mob
[18:02] [Rednell] if you are going to die, it might as well be a glorious
[18:02] [virumor] element of surprise.
[18:02] [virumor] still way too outnumbered, without aragorn's arrival
they'd be all killede.
[18:02] [Rednell] interesting that Merry mentioned that Theoden seemed
"fey", the same term Pippin used for Denethor.
[18:03] [V] I love the bit at the end of the chapter about Theoden's shield
[18:03] [V] and the Rohan burst into song and singing as they slew
[18:03] [virumor] "let's hunt some orc, ola olee!"
[18:03] [Rednell] yes, I do too. I just love this part of the book. I find
it filled with emotion
[18:04] [V] virumor does love to quote those films he hates
[18:04] [Rednell] did you notice that too?
[18:04] [virumor] i like the part in which he says goodbye to Eowyn and
[18:04] [V] methinks he doth protest too much
[18:04] [Rednell] well, that comes later.
[18:05] [virumor] heh
[18:05] [Rednell] we can compare notes next week on that
[18:05] [V] he's PJ's biggest fan
[18:06] [virumor] so class is finished?
[18:06] [V] Nell: I've quite worked out what fey is exactly. It seems to
be used for a few things both good and bad
[18:06] [virumor] in that case, i can finally write my daily fan-letter
[18:06] [virumor] Morgan Le Fey?
[18:06] [virumor] or LaFey.
[18:06] [virumor] rather.
[18:07] [Rednell] right now I just want to end on the glorious vision of
the Rohirrim going into battle with "battle fury of his fathers ran like
new fire in his veins and he was born up on Snowmane like a god of old,
even as Orome the Great in teh battle of the Valar when the world was
[18:07] [V] yes!
[18:07] [virumor] that's also the exact moment were the sun breaks thru.
[18:07] [Rednell] one sec and I will get the dictionary
[18:07] [V] ok - horns, horns............... the golden shield........
[18:07] [virumor] another example of great timing. Valar influence.
[18:08] [V] the blowing of the horns of Rohan in that hour was like a
storm upon the plain and a thunder in the mountain
[18:08] [Rednell] indeed and without the Mearas
[18:09] [Rednell] ah, fey, fated to die, dying
[18:09] [Rednell] visionary
[18:10] [virumor] like Morgan LaFey, yup.
[18:10] [Rednell] yep
[18:10] [V] ah
[18:10] [Rednell] now it makes sense. But then again, anyone who has the
second sight is considered crazy by most.
[18:11] [virumor] or would be burnt in the middle-ages.
[18:11] [Rednell] true.
[18:11] [Rednell] It does fit both Denethor and Theoden in both fated to
die and visionary
[18:12] [virumor] every Man was fated to die.
[18:12] [Rednell] true
[18:12] [V] other than old age
[18:12] [Rednell] but I think the death is meant to be a little more
[18:13] [V] maybe like Theoden, a fey person expects death or faces it
[18:13] [V] meets it head on like Aragorn does
[18:14] [Rednell] Next week we move on to The Battle of the Pelennor
Fields and The Pyre of Denethor
[18:14] [V] ok
[18:14] [virumor] great.
[18:14] [Rednell] that could be, V
End of #bilbos-study buffer Sun Mar 14 18:16:57 2004