Message Board | Rules

Thread: Battle of Pelennor Fields

Bottom of Page    Message Board > Tolkien Weekly Courses > Battle of Pelennor Fields   
I am a little slow at getting the last few week's of our Sunday discussions posted. I will now post each chapter separate and if anyone wishes to comment on the discussion feel free to do so.
We meet Sunday evenings 9pm GMT

Start of #bilbos-study buffer: Sun Mar 28 18:03:36 2004 [15:30] * Now talking in #bilbos-study
[15:30] * Topic is 'Welcome to the Planet-Tolkien Classroom. If we do not
have a class discussion going on at the moment join us in #tolkien '
[15:30] * Set by Rednell on Sun Sep 07 21:27:18
[15:30] * ChanServ sets mode: +o Rednell

[16:25] [Rednell] We begin with the appearance of the witchking.
[16:29] [Rednell] Why was the Lord of the Nazgul sent out to lead the
assult against Gondor?
[16:29] [V] apart from him being the strongest of the nazgul?
[16:30] [Rednell] yep, it would seem that Sauron was sending out his
[16:30] [virumor] it was time to do so
[16:31] [V] Gondor was at its weakest
[16:31] [Rednell] yes, but why was it time, virumor?
[16:31] [virumor] time to attack MT
[16:31] [V] Sauron knew abou Aragorn but not where he was
[16:31] [Rednell] yes, V
[16:32] [V] did he think that if he defeated Gondor then ME would fall to
[16:32] [Rednell] "fortune had turned against him" victory was slipping
from Saurons's hands
[16:33] [virumor] that's bout the Witchking
[16:33] [virumor] after Rohan arrived
[16:33] [V] he was about to confront Gandalf at the gate but left to fight
[16:33] [Rednell] remember there were attacks against Mirkwood as well
[16:34] [virumor] and lorien
[16:34] [virumor] and erebor
[16:34] [virumor] and dale
[16:34] [virumor] originally sauron intended to attack lothlorien and
rivendell instead OF MT
[16:34] [V] Gondor was the closest to Mordor
[16:34] [Rednell] When I read about darkness breaking too soon, etc, I
interpreted it as meaning Sauron, not witchking
[16:34] [virumor] but gandalf messed his plans by killin smaug and stuff
[16:35] [virumor] well the witchkin was leadin the army
[16:35] [virumor] it says "before his master had intended"
[16:35] [V] the Witchking was an instrument of Sauron
[16:35] [V] no doubt what the witchking felt so did Sauron
[16:35] [V] and the witchking obeyed his master's wishes
[16:36] [virumor] if he didn't, he got a spanking on the butt
[16:36] [V] I don't think he had a choice
[16:36] [virumor] "my blanket, master!!!"
[16:36] [Rednell] Sauron would have known about Isengard now too.
[16:36] [Rednell] and Aragorn has revealed himself
[16:36] [virumor] so?
[16:36] [Rednell] and this is about the same time that Frodo and Sam have
escaped from the tower
[16:37] [V] these are things that Sauron never expected
[16:37] [virumor] sauron is a wise fool
[16:38] [V] arrogant I think
[16:38] [Rednell] Indeed and I think these are the things that Tolkien is
referring to when he says the darkness is breaking too soon and victory
is slipping from his grip
[16:38] [virumor] only for on emoment
[16:38] [virumor] gandalf knew they couldn't defeat sauron by arms
[16:38] [V] As the Rohirrim rode forth the sun came out and darkness was
[16:39] [virumor] sauron shud've secured the borders, then they wudn't
have any chance at all
[16:39] [virumor] he had enough armies to dothat
[16:39] [virumor] what an idiot he is
[16:39] [V] Gandalf agreed with denethor on that one - arms alone won't
defeat Mordor
[16:39] [V] It is arrogance not stupidity
[16:39] [Rednell] indeed
[16:40] [Rednell] is arrogance a trait of the evil, can there be arrogance
in good?
[16:40] [V] yes
[16:40] [V] why not
[16:40] [V] but with Sauron it was an evil arrogance
[16:40] [virumor] f’anor was arrogant
[16:40] [V] and nasty
[16:41] [V] but maybe with reason
[16:41] [Rednell] what does arrogance lead to?
[16:41] [V] blindness
[16:41] [virumor] the fall
[16:41] [virumor] he still had his Eye
[16:41] [V] I meant blindness to what can happen
[16:42] [Rednell] I noticed that Tolkien too great pains to describe the
banner of the Haradrim and the banner of the Rohirrim in this chapter.
Did you notice the contrast?
[16:42] [virumor] it wasn't really blindness
[16:42] [virumor] his borders were secured by Morannon and Shelob
[16:42] [virumor] both 'impregnable'
[16:42] [virumor] he thought, with good reason
[16:42] [virumor] he just wasn't lucky
[16:42] [V] I rather like the hardeim banner - black and purple
[16:43] [V] he thought but he was wrong
[16:43] [V] he didn't expect Aragorn
[16:43] [V] he didn't know where the ring was
[16:44] [virumor] gandalf said he couldn't imagine the enemy wudn't use
the ring
[16:44] [virumor] that caused his downfall
[16:44] [V] I don't understant
[16:44] [virumor] so he thought aragorn took it.
[16:45] [virumor] 'he' being Sauron
[16:45] [virumor] srry for the confusion
[16:46] [Rednell] The banner was a black serpent on a scarlet background
[16:46] [V] ah
[16:46] [V] purple - scarlett - just as good
[16:46] [virumor] scarlett o'hara
[16:46] [Rednell] scarlett is red
[16:47] [virumor] i thought it a spurple-crimson
[16:47] [V] This was Sauron's arrogance though - he thought anyone would
want to use the ring, he couldn't believe that someone would be able to
resist it
[16:47] [Rednell] scarlett is bright read
[16:47] [V] still a good combination
[16:47] [V] what colour was the rohirrim banner
[16:48] [virumor] white horse on green
[16:48] [Rednell] I just thought it was an interesting contrast red -
green/black serpent - white horse
[16:48] [virumor] ac milan vs celtic
[16:48] [V] oh dear
[16:49] [V] I like the way it describes the Rohirrim as cleaving through
the Southrons like a fire-bolt in a forest
[16:49] [Rednell] what did you think of Theoden's charge?
[16:50] [virumor] he showed off
[16:50] [V] A man with nothing to lose....... straight in and swipe
[16:50] [Rednell] I think I will go with V on this one
[16:50] [V] Theoden wasn't a showoff
[16:51] [virumor] hey u showed off there
[16:51] [virumor] he$
[16:51] [virumor] he did
[16:51] [virumor] it was great
[16:51] [Rednell] he already determined that there was a good possibility
that he would not come back from battle.
[16:51] [V] and he was right
[16:52] [Rednell] but ever the heroic leader to the end.
[16:52] [V] The winged beast of the Nazgul - how many like that were there
or was that the only one?
[16:53] [Rednell] when a fearful darkness fell over them he again gives
rousing encouragement to his men
[16:53] [V] Fear no Darkness!
[16:53] [virumor] only sauron knows bout that vile creature
[16:53] [virumor] there were 9 as far as i know
[16:53] [V] 9 beasts
[16:54] [V] ?
[16:54] [V] so they all had one
[16:54] [Rednell] When I read it here, I sensed there was only 1
[16:54] [V] I wondered that
[16:54] [virumor] of course htey all had one
[16:54] [V] it is talked about in the singular
[16:54] [virumor] pippin see them flyin around the dark tower when he
looks in the palantir
[16:54] [V] really
[16:54] [virumor] yeh
[16:54] [virumor] imagine that, eh
[16:54] [Rednell] "until it grew beyond the measure of all other things
that fly, and he gave it to his servant to be his steed."
[16:55] [virumor] what a nice birthday present
[16:56] [V] but yes, just checked and Pippin did see 9
[16:56] [V] where are the others then?
[16:56] [Rednell] is it possible that this was not the same type of winged
beast the other 8 rode?
[16:57] [V] another example of arrogance that Sauron didn't think he
needed to send all his nazgul to Gondor
[16:57] [V] is there a description anywhere of the other beasts
[16:57] [virumor] he sent Kham’l to Dol guldur
[16:57] [virumor] there was fighting elsewhere too u kno
[16:58] [Rednell] ok, I think you are right, Virumor.
[16:58] [Rednell] Tolkien is referring to just one beast here because
there is only one present
[16:59] [Rednell] I just found it confusing when I re-read it this morning
[16:59] [V] ok
[17:00] [virumor] there was also one nazg’l present.
[17:00] [Rednell] Legolas had already killed one of the beasts and now
another one bites the dust
[17:01] [Rednell] but this Nazgul is referred to as the Lord of the
Nazgul, which makes him one of a kind due to his superior power
[17:01] [Rednell] I am sure Sauron felt that only one Nazgul was necessary
anyway, just their cry brought sheer terror to the hearts of men
[17:02] [V] arrogance again
[17:02] [virumor] maybe he sent him to topple Gandalf
[17:02] [V] he should have had a contingency plan
[17:03] [Rednell] But this part of the battle is completely in the hands
of the Rohirrim
[17:03] [V] what would have happened if all the nazgul had been there
[17:03] [virumor] then sauron probably would've lost battles elsewhere
[17:03] [Rednell] well, there was only one there who was not a man so....
[17:03] [virumor] he wanted to win everywhere at the same time
[17:04] [V] arrogance
[17:04] [V] pippin wasn't a man
[17:04] [Rednell] actually a good plan if you are planning to take over
the world
[17:04] [virumor] divide et impera
[17:05] [Rednell] and if Dernhelm had not stayed by Theoden's side then
the outcome would have been very different
[17:05] [V] I think both Eowyn and Pippin were necessary for his downfall
[17:05] [Rednell] I like the way Tolkien continues to hide Dernhelm's
idenity from the reader.
[17:05] [V] the barrow blade
[17:05] [Rednell] Merry
[17:05] [V] Merry
[17:05] [V] sorry
[17:06] [V] confused by talking about Pippin earlier
[17:06] [virumor] pippin tom of galway
[17:06] [V] I think most people would have worked it out by then though
[17:06] [Rednell] yes, I agree that the Barrow blade was crucial to the
Nazgul's downfall.
[17:06] [V] it was!
[17:07] [virumor] otherwise it woldn't be able to wound him
[17:07] [Rednell] I don't think any blade would have caused him to fall,
however, Eowyn struck the fatal blow.
[17:07] [virumor] break the spell
[17:07] [V] No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it,
would have dealt that foe a
[17:07] [virumor] merry saved eowyn's life
[17:07] [V] wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the
spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.
[17:07] [virumor] merely
[17:07] [V] it had to be the barrow blade
[17:07] [virumor] so that she could delliver the death blow
[17:07] [virumor] that wasn't a barrow blade though
[17:07] [V] otherwise Eowyn's blow may not have worked
[17:07] [V] it was
[17:07] [virumor] it was because she was a woman it worked
[17:08] [V] it was the two together
[17:08] [V] neither of them were men
[17:08] [virumor] eowyn didn't have a barrow blade
[17:08] [V] and the barrow blade allowed her to kill him
[17:08] [V] Merry did
[17:08] [virumor] she culd ;ill him because she was a woman
[17:08] [virumor] a man doing the same like her wouldn't have killed him
[17:09] [V] yes that and Merry's blow killed him
[17:09] [Rednell] I agree Virumo
[17:09] [virumor] merry's blow?
[17:09] [virumor] he stabbed merely.
[17:09] [virumor] and so, saved eowyn's life otherwise witchking's stazff
would've killed her.
[17:09] [V] no
[17:10] [virumor] it was eowyn who killed him.
[17:10] [V] there is a quote and I am trying to remember where I got it
[17:10] [virumor] i think u shud reread that.
[17:10] [virumor] first, he broke her shield and her arm
[17:10] [virumor] eowyn on her knees
[17:10] [virumor] then he gave her the death blow. "AAAWWWWW" merry
thrusts. witch-kng misses.
[17:10] [virumor] then eowyn thrusts her blade under the crown.
[17:10] [virumor] THE END
[17:11] [Rednell] For some reason I had thought Merry had killed the
witchking until I re-read it again. Clearly, Eowyn delivers the fatal
[17:11] [V] a bit further on in this chapter it says
[17:11] [V] No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it,
would have dealt that foe a
[17:11] [V] wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the
spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.
[17:11] [Rednell] It was the combination of Merry and Eowyn, which is
interesting as Merry would not have been there, had it not been for the
pity of Eowyn
[17:12] [virumor] yes, without eowyn the witch-king would've continued his
[17:12] [V] grrrrrrrrr
[17:12] [virumor] it was just a wound
[17:12] [virumor] not deadly
[17:12] [V] the barrow blade broke the spell that knit his unseen sinews
to his will
[17:12] [Rednell] breaking the spell, did not necessarily bring his death,
V. Look at Gollum
[17:12] [V] once that happened then her blow would kill him
[17:12] [Rednell] yes, I agree
[17:13] [V] but without that her blow may not have killed him
[17:13] [V] otherwise why would Tolkien have put that in about the barrow
[17:13] [V] Merry had a part to play after all
[17:13] [Rednell] I agree with you there.
[17:13] [virumor] i still disagree
[17:13] [V] breaking the spell didn't kill him. I am saying that the
barrow blade was needed to break the spell so that he could be killed
and it was a crucial thing
[17:13] [Rednell] the combination of Merry and Eowyn was what killed the
[17:14] [virumor] it just gave him a wound so that he missed the fatal blow
[17:14] [virumor] then e owyn could kill him because she was a woman
[17:14] [V] then Eowyn could kill him
[17:14] [Rednell] you do realize that you both are saying the same thing
[17:14] [V] no man could kill him but to non-men together could
[17:14] [virumor] if a woman would've stabbed with a normal blade, he
would've felt the wound too
[17:14] [V] no he wouldn't
[17:14] [Rednell] no
[17:14] [virumor] merry using a regular blade, wouldn't have wounded him
[17:15] [V] Nell: we are not saying the same
[17:15] [Rednell] I see now the difference
[17:15] [virumor] merry wounded him because of the blade had a spell on
[17:15] [V] I don't think Eowyn would have killed him had Merry not
already undone the spell etc
[17:15] [V] using the barrow blade
[17:16] [Rednell] That is an interesting perspective, I really never
thought of it in that light, but I have to agree with V on this one.
[17:16] [virumor] i disagree
[17:16] [Rednell] Why else would Tolkien have made mention of the spell
being broken
[17:16] [V] exactly
[17:17] [V] The prophecy of Glorfindel said "not by the hand of man will
he fall" - no mention of women or hobbits just not men and it doesn't
say just the one non-man
[17:18] [virumor] i think the spell bein broken means he can feel the pain
[17:18] [Rednell] I think once the spell is broken, he became a man again,
albeit, a rather ghoulish one
[17:18] [V] no
[17:18] [virumor] frodo also gave him a stab at weathertop eh
[17:18] [virumor] i don't think the spell means a 'shield' or something is
razed so he can be killed
[17:18] [virumor] i doon't believe that
[17:18] [V] it clearly says
[17:18] [V] breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.
[17:18] [virumor] which mean she can feel the pain of the wound
[17:18] [V] his bodily form became unstable
[17:19] [virumor] he*
[17:20] [Rednell] Frodo struck at the feet of the witchking, it didn't say
that the knife broke through
[17:20] [virumor] it didn't say it didn't, either
[17:20] [V] Frodo didn't stab him at Weathertop - just slashed his robe
[17:21] [V] but Merry stabbed right into his knee
[17:21] [Rednell] true, V. It does not say stab
[17:21] [Rednell] "At the same time he struck at the feet of his enemy."
[17:21] [virumor] so if a man would stab with a barrow blade under his
crown ,he would be dead
[17:21] [virumor] that's what u r saying
[17:21] [virumor] whilst the prophecy says he cannot be kille dby a man
[17:21] [V] yes but Aragorn points to the cut in the robe and says that is
the only hurt Frodo did to the enemy
[17:21] [Rednell] no, a woman would have to have the barrow blade in that
case, virumor
[17:22] [virumor] what happen if a man stabbed the barrow blade under his
[17:22] [virumor] according to your thoery, it would kill him.
[17:22] [V] a hobbit would do
[17:22] [Rednell] he would not die
[17:22] [virumor] contradisctory to the prophecy
[17:22] [V] but he didn't cut the nazgul
[17:22] [Rednell] Only the spell that Sauron has over him through the Ring
would be broken
[17:22] [V] it is not a theory
[17:22] [V] I have quoted it enough times to you
[17:23] [Rednell] The prophesy is just that, a prophesy.
[17:23] [virumor] you have quoted it yes, bu ti don't agree with ur
[17:23] [V] scared the Witchking though
[17:23] [Rednell] It would be theoretically possible that a man could stab
him and kill him but that is not what was foretold
[17:24] [virumor] the witch-king himself says 'no man can kill me'
[17:24] [Rednell] because of the prophesy
[17:24] [virumor] i'm sure he knows bout numenorean swords
[17:24] [V] if a man stabbed him with the barrow blade it might have had
the same effect that Merry's blade had
[17:24] [V] just undoing the spell
[17:24] [virumor] don' forget E’rnur came to challenge him once
[17:24] [V] it would need someone not a man to kill him
[17:24] [Rednell] In life he practiced the dark arts and fortune telling.
[17:24] [Rednell] he would have believed in prophesy
[17:25] [virumor] where did u read that?
[17:25] [V] all the prohecies seem to come true in ME and oaths and curses
[17:25] [Rednell] yes, that is what prophesy is.
[17:25] [Rednell] read what, Virumor?
[17:25] [V] Well, I have quoted the relevant stuff from LotR and can quote
you the bit about Frodo NOT stabbing the witchking but I think we should
move on.........
[17:26] [V] time.....
[17:26] [virumor] that line bout the witcking, nell
[17:26] [Rednell] I will look up the revelant quotes virumor and send them
to you.
[17:26] [virumor] frodo did stab the witch-king
[17:26] [virumor] pls
[17:26] [V] grrrrrr
[17:26] [V] ok
[17:26] [Rednell] stabbed at the witchking
[17:26] [virumor] i didn't say he touched him
[17:27] [virumor] but he stabbed towards him whilst exclaiming
[17:27] [V] he didn't cut him so he couldn't have done the same that Merry
[17:27] [virumor] and at least he cut thru the witch-king's cloak.
[17:27] [virumor] Strider showed it to him.
[17:27] [virumor] but he STABBED him, didn't he?
[17:27] [Rednell] but the barrow blade would have to breach the body
[17:27] [V] and it was Merry's blade not Frodo's that was able to do it
[17:27] [virumor] we don't know that
[17:27] [V] he didn't stab him
[17:27] [V] he may have stabbed AT him
[17:27] [Rednell] Merry had better aim
[17:27] [virumor] Sting is an Elvish sword, forged in Gondolin.
[17:28] [V] but all he did was cut the robe
[17:28] [V] So it was Merry's blade that was important
[17:28] [Rednell] Frodo had a barrow blade at Weathertop
[17:29] [V] yes but it may not have had the spells wrought into it like
[17:29] [virumor] wasn't Sting Elvish, nell?
[17:29] [Rednell] any one of the barrow blades could have been the
important one, it just happends that Merry is the one in the right place
at the right time
[17:29] [V] it may have been made by a different person
[17:29] [virumor] forged at gondolin?
[17:29] [virumor] found in the treasure of the trolls?
[17:29] [Rednell] yes, Sting was an elvish sword
[17:30] [Rednell] and Sting plays an important role in LOTR too
[17:30] [V] It does say that no other blade would have dealt that foe a
wound so bitter.....
[17:30] [V] I see that as saying there was only that one blade capable of
doing it and luckily Merry had it
[17:31] [virumor] let's continue
[17:31] [virumor] i don't have time today
[17:31] [Rednell] remember that the westernesse started to dabble in the
black arts, particularly the Withchking of Angmar
[17:31] [Rednell] well, I think we can move on from the death of the
[17:31] [V] yep
[17:31] [Rednell] what happens to Eomer?
[17:32] [V] what about Eomer's reaction to Eowyn's 'death'?
[17:32] [Rednell] for starters, yes
[17:32] [V] He gets quite upset
[17:33] [V] Rides off to kill
[17:33] [V] which ws nearly his undoing
[17:33] [Rednell] there is that word "fey" again
[17:33] [V] I get fey and fell muddled up
[17:34] [V] Eomer deals with Theoden's deather better than Eowyn's
[17:34] [Rednell] indeed, the shock was probably a big part of it
[17:35] [V] Everyone is weeping and Eomer says "Mourn not overmuch"
[17:35] [Rednell] he loved his sister a great deal as we know from his
conversations with Wormtongue
[17:35] [V] then he sees Eowyn and loses it
[17:35] [virumor] what conversations with Wormtongue??
[17:36] [V] certainly his conversations ABOUT wormtongue
[17:36] [V] with Aragorn
[17:36] [Rednell] sorry, about
[17:37] [virumor] i think eomr wanted to kill wormtongue after gandalf
revealed wormtongue's plans
[17:37] [Rednell] anyhow, he loses it and it does not serve him well in
[17:37] [virumor] bit overprotective there.
[17:37] [virumor] Eowyn would've killed wormtongue for that, heh.
[17:37] [Rednell] she was most certainly capable
[17:38] [virumor] she was not as sissy as in .........
[17:38] [virumor] i'm sure she would do that
[17:38] [V] anyone who can kill a winged beast like that
[17:38] [V] wack off its head
[17:38] [Rednell] what was Imrahil's reaction when he saw Eowyn being
carried off the battlefield?
[17:39] [V] would it have been good if Merry had been able to tell Theoden
about Eowyn or was it better that he didn't know
[17:39] [V] He saw she was still alive
[17:39] [V] tested her breath
[17:39] [Rednell] definitely better that Theoden did not know
[17:39] [virumor] he wondered if Rohan also sent women to fight.
[17:39] [virumor] and why the women were that hot, in that case.
[17:39] [Rednell] that is what I was thinking virumor
[17:39] [Rednell] not the hot part, of course. :P
[17:40] [virumor] hey that he thought too.
[17:40] [V] he did
[17:40] [V] but only this once
[17:40] [virumor] i'm shocked
[17:40] [V] you'll get over it
[17:40] [virumor] maybe one day
[17:41] [Rednell] it will be forever kept in the permanent records of the
Planet-Tolkien forum
[17:41] [V] ha
[17:41] [virumor] oh no
[17:41] [virumor] that too??
[17:41] [virumor] srry i'm off topic. i don't want amari’ to come in here
[17:42] [virumor] let's continue!
[17:42] [Rednell] When Imrahil goes to join Eomer, things are not going
well for the new king
[17:42] [V] got himself into a pickly
[17:42] [V] pickle
[17:42] [V] his fury had betrayed him
[17:42] [virumor] he plans to fight to the last man
[17:42] [V] it says
[17:43] [V] Was Gothmog actually there?
[17:43] [virumor] after he sees the ships of Umbar
[17:43] [Rednell] yes, blind fury
[17:43] [Rednell] yes, I think he was
[17:44] [V] what happened to him?
[17:44] [virumor] we dont know
[17:44] [Rednell] as during the battle?
[17:44] [virumor] married and went living in Vegas?
[17:44] [V] yes
[17:45] [virumor] he is only mentioned once anyway
[17:45] [Rednell] Nothing in this battle as near as we can tell, just says
that he took over as leader
[17:45] [virumor] he became the boss
[17:45] [virumor] strange that JRRT named him gothmog
[17:45] [V] do we hear any more about him
[17:46] [virumor] there's another gothmog
[17:46] [virumor] captain of angband
[17:46] [Rednell] Yes, in UT
[17:46] [virumor] in the Sil
[17:46] [V] he was named after him
[17:46] [Rednell] that too.
[17:46] [V] different one though
[17:46] [virumor] the one who creamed Fingon
[17:46] [virumor] morgoth's son
[17:46] [Rednell] yes, he is in UT too
[17:46] [virumor] there's also Slothmog
[17:46] [V] off topic!!!
[17:47] [virumor] awwww
[17:47] [Rednell] true, back on topic, folks
[17:47] [V] maybe they are related and Mog is their surname
[17:47] [Rednell] ok, what about the ships coming up the river.
[17:47] [V] ah yes
[17:47] [V] black sails
[17:47] [V] everyone thinks the Corsairs are coming
[17:48] [virumor] i reluctantly agree
[17:48] [Rednell] and it looks as if Eomer has really lost his mind at
this point.
[17:48] [virumor] "Hold sails!! we're the Corsairs!!!"
[17:48] [V] I wish I could swear at you Vir
[17:48] [virumor] he plans to fight to the last man
[17:48] [virumor] and hopes the orcs will put him in songs
[17:49] [virumor] which i doubt they would do
[17:49] [V] and Saurons army were happy
[17:49] [V] its a rather sad bit that
[17:49] [Rednell] I think his laughter brings to mind madness or fey if
you so chose
[17:50] [Rednell] I think I was a bit disappointed in how Tolkien
developed Eomer's character in this part
[17:50] [V] "though no man should be left in the West to remember the last
King of the Mark"
[17:50] [virumor] he just lost all his hope
[17:51] [Rednell] yes, I know.
[17:51] [virumor] normally to go a bit outta ya mind
[17:51] [Rednell] under the circumstances. Not your typical heroic
fiction, I guess.
[17:51] [V] the lust of battle was on him and he was still unscathed, and
he was young, and he was King the lord of a fell people"
[17:52] [virumor] yes, every women in gondor would marry him
[17:53] [V] I would as long as I didn't have to live in Edoras
[17:54] [virumor] nothing wrong with Edoras imo
[17:54] [V] you aren't a woman
[17:54] [Rednell] well, Aragorn comes to save the day with Eomer and
Imrahil by his side
[17:55] [virumor] i'm sure Eomer wouldn't lock you up in a cage like any
other Rohirrim man, V
[17:55] [V] Yes... the first time I read this bit I was so disappointed
because there were no Dead army. I thought they had got lost or run
away again.
[17:56] [V] As long as he is in there with me.......
[17:57] [virumor] off topic!!! pls!!!
[17:57] [virumor] no details wanted!!!
[17:57] [Rednell] just one little point worth noting, perhaps
[17:57] [virumor] no, the dead army had the power of fear.
[17:57] [virumor] they didn't fight with arms or ate orcs, like in ;;;;;;;;
[17:57] [virumor] everyone just fled for them
[17:58] [Rednell] when the ships are coming there is panic in the city and
they call the armies back and sound the alarms.
[17:58] [V] and ran or drowned
[17:58] [V] bit like the nazgul
[17:58] [V] wraiths like the 9
[17:58] [Rednell] but the sound of the alarms are lost in the wind so that
the armies don't return
[17:58] [Rednell] and then of course the Rohirrim are close enough to see
the standard
[17:59] [V] unmistakable
[17:59] [virumor] nimloth, 7 stars, and a crown.
[17:59] [virumor] crown made out of mithril i think.
[17:59] [virumor] rest out of gold.
[17:59] [virumor] made by Urwen
[17:59] [Rednell] The thought that came to my mind was the work of Eru
creating the wind so that the alarms could not be heard
[17:59] [V] stars were gems
[17:59] [virumor] Arwen*
[18:00] [virumor] gems?
[18:00] [Rednell] just says "gems" in the book
[18:00] [Rednell] diamonds, perhaps
[18:00] [V] gems of Arwen
[18:00] [V] the crown was mithril and gold
[18:00] [virumor] work of Manw’, Nell
[18:00] [virumor] he's the lord of the breath of Arda
[18:01] [Rednell] wrought of gems by Arwen
[18:01] [Rednell] good point, virumor
[18:01] [virumor] Eru never interferes, safe only once.
[18:02] [Rednell] well, this is it for tonight unless anyone has any other
points to make
[18:02] [V] I like the way Eomer and Aragorn lean on their swords
[18:02] [V] having a chat
[18:02] [Rednell] next week I won't be around, I am afraid
[18:02] [V] nor me Nell
[18:03] [virumor] smoking is a bad habit...
[18:03] [V] ah

End of #bilbos-study buffer Sun Mar 28 18:03:36 2004
I have to agree (yet again) with Miruvor: Eowyn didn't need Merrys Barrow blade to kill the Witch King, though she DID need it to keep her head. His reminder of Earnur is very indicative; I don't doubt the King of Gondor had a few blades of Westernesse lying around, and they availed him not. I always took the quote in question to mean the blade was particularly potent, and therefore did greater damage than it otherwise would have in a hobbits hand, but no more than that. It's difficult to believe Sauron would have designed the Nine to grant invulnerability but leave that out of the design of the One, particularly since he bore the latter. If he had a way to grant Invulnerability to Non-Magical Weapons he would have given it to himself, not his underlings.

Other than that I have nothing to add save that Jackson buthchered the climax of the series as thoroughly as he did the rest. For those unaware, if you have a huge army, rank upon rank of orc infantry bearing pikes and spears, and suddenly, out of nowhere, a massive cavalry formation appears on their flank, the commander doesn't just shout a command and have them all neatly pivot to meet the charge. In the days when wars were fought that way, whole books were written on the turning movement (his innovations with it were at least as critical to Alexanders success as the phalanx itself.) No, when cavalry show up at the rear of your infantry, or even at the side, they charge, wheel, charge, ad nauseum, ad corpsum, until there's nothing left, and there's very little you can do about it except maybe throw down your arms and run in the hopes they'll be more interested in combatants than deserters.

Carry on.
Other than that I have nothing to add save that Jackson buthchered the climax of the series as thoroughly as he did the rest.

I'm still wondering how on earth an army of 70,000 men suddenly disappeared into thin air after those ghosts flocked over them. Those ghosts normally had only the power of fear against their enemies, hence the only thing that they could do is sent them fleeing.

Strange how the most epic battle in LOTR was reduced to some stunts (Legolas + M’mak, ’owyn + Brontosaurus), vandalism (Gandalf beating up Denethor and not calling the fireguard when Denethor did the Human Torch shtick) and was over in five minutes.

Mind though, the exertions of the mysterious Orc-commander I usually refer to (affectionally) as "Slothmog" (yes, Mr Astin is not the only Goonie apparently) were most amusing.

I have to agree (yet again) with Miruvor: Eowyn didn't need Merrys Barrow blade to kill the Witch King, though she DID need it to keep her head. His reminder of Earnur is very indicative; I don't doubt the King of Gondor had a few blades of Westernesse lying around, and they availed him not.

I think the Witch-King misunderstood that prophecy : the fact that a man would not kill him, made him think that he was invulnerable. He didn't even take into regard that it meant that a woman could kill him, after for some reason a Westernesse blade would break the spell that bound his unseen sinews to his will (wise fool).

Still, the fact that a man would not kill him, does not mean that a man could not kill him after the spell had been broken; any man with a run-off-the-mill blade was able to slay the Witch-King after the spell had been broken, but it was just a woman who did a man's job at that point.