Message Board | Rules

Thread: Week 2 - Nature of Dwarves

Planet Tolkien is archived and no longer updated, but the forums remain browseable. We have established a Telegram group for old and new visitors to stay connected and discuss all things Tolkien.

Bottom of Page    Message Board > Tolkien Weekly Courses > Week 2 - Nature of Dwarves   
Rednell
has made 1808 posts and is a Dunedain from Osgiliath and is not online.
Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
The Dwarves were created by the valar, Aule because he was too impatient to wait for Eru (Iluvatar, the One) to create the Children who would inhabit Arda. Although Eru was angry with Aule, he saw that Aule did not do this with evil intent and agreed to allow the Dwarves to have independent life. However, the seven father Dwarves along with six mates would have to sleep deep in stone until the Elves (First Children) and Men (Second Children) were given life.

Some characteristics of the Dwarves:
- stubborn
- fast in friendship and enmity
- capable of suffering toil, hunger and pain more heartily
- love long beyond the years of man
- brave in battle
- proud
- 4 to 5 feet tall
- long bearded
- strong
- miners, masons, metal workers, stone carvers creating spectacular works of architecture.
- ungainly
- swift to learn, but unwilling to share their own knowledge with other races.
- Love possessions just for the sake of it.
- Greedy

There was no love lost between the Elves and the Dwarves. This could be a result of the fact they had to sleep until Eru created his Children, making the Elves and Men feel superior to the Dwarves. It could be that the Dwarves showed little respect for nature, pilfering the riches from the earth. Their desire to have the Simaril led to tragic results. The Dwarves were asked by Finrod Felagund to set the Simaril and they did so, bringing together the great metalwork of the Dwarves and the Simaril of the Elves, creating the Nauglamir. Thingol wanted the Simaril necklace for himself but the Dwarves were not willing to relinquish it to him. In his anger, Thingol referred to the Dwarves as an uncouth race. The enraged Dwarves attacked and killed Thingol, took Nauglamir and fled eastward. The Elves hunted them down, slew all but 2 of the party and took the Nauglamir.

Questions to consider for discussion:

At what point in the Lord of the Rings, do we see a friendship begin to develop between Legolas and Gimli?

What event(s) may have been responsible for this new relationship between an Elf and a Dwarf?

See everyone in Bilbos-Study. Big Smile Smilie





[Edited on 21/10/2002 by Rednell]
Top of Page | Bottom of Page
MelliotSandybanks
has made 1517 posts and is a Hobbit from Hobbiton and is not online.
Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
Thanks Nell, I am going to read it now. I am looking forward to Sunday.
Top of Page | Bottom of Page
Taz
has made billions upon billions of posts and is an Uruk-Hai from Isengard and is not online.
Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
I *will* hopefully get some time to read it this week, but I suppose my fate really lies in Rednell and the councils hands Wink Smilie
Top of Page | Bottom of Page
Rednell
has made 1808 posts and is a Dunedain from Osgiliath and is not online.
Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
Nice try, Taz. Smoke Smilie
Top of Page | Bottom of Page
Valedhelgwath
has made 4245 posts and is an Elf from Rivendell and is not online.
Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
Hi Mramm. Welcome to PT. Hope you enjoy your time here.

The discussion takes place in its own chat room, Bilbo's-Study. A link to this room will appear on the front page, just before 9pm GMT on Sunday. See you in there.

[Edited on 21/10/2002 by Rednell]
Top of Page | Bottom of Page
Taz
has made billions upon billions of posts and is an Uruk-Hai from Isengard and is not online.
Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
And the log for this discussion is posted below:
Quote:
[21:12] ok, class is in session.
[21:13] Rednell's postThreadIDying her lesson plan
[21:13] ok, lets go
[21:14] gasp
[21:14] What are the characteristics of Dwarves.
[21:14] god himself has joined us
[21:14] they have beards
[21:14] yes
[21:14] Sturdy, Stubborn
[21:14] earthy
[21:14] they are strong and stubborn
[21:14] the males have larger beards
[21:14] Greedy for gold
[21:14] Stout
[21:15] like mining, metals etc
[21:15] yes...greedy
[21:15] materialistic
[21:15] ok
[21:15] secretive
[21:16] There appeared to be enmity between the Elves and the Dwarves. Why do you suppose that was?
[21:16] * iluuvatar looks up "enmity"
[21:16] Aule made them in secret without concelling Yavanna
[21:16] not friends
[21:16] oh
[21:16] elves seemed to act above other ppl as though more intelligent
[21:16] The elves looked down on the Dwarves...they weren't part of the plan
[21:16] thought of dwarves as dumb
[21:16] dwarves thought elves pompous?
[21:16] dwarves were materialistic
[21:16] good
[21:17] because Iluvater willed it that way because Aule made them in secret
[21:17] not interested in trees, starlight etc
[21:17] I think their secretive nature would have contributed to the mistrust the Elves would harbour.
[21:17] yes...very different cultures
[21:18] Later they closed the doors of Moria allowing thousands of elves to perish
[21:18] The Dwarves learned the language of the Elves but would not share their language.
[21:18] he said that because Aule did that there would be strife between Iluvatars children and Aule's
[21:18] good, Mellie.
[21:18] I believe that's certainly the source
[21:18] Mell
[21:19] then all the other reason you guy listed came in to play
[21:19] If Iluvatar (Eru) willed it, could it be changed?
[21:19] yes
[21:19] Yes
[21:19] What specifically?
[21:19] yes
[21:19] well ;p of course cos hes god
[21:19] unmake the Dwarves?
[21:19] anything Iluvatar wanted could be changed
[21:20] *poses
[21:20] * Whybother has joined #Bilbos-Study
[21:20] * Barliman sets mode: +v Whybother
[21:20] do we see any strain between Legolas and Gimli which could be attributed to this ancient strife.
[21:20] lots
[21:20] At first there is
[21:20] Absolutely...in the beginning
[21:20] yes, he could unmake the dwarves, but because he liked the answer Aule gave him, he did not do it
[21:20] examples.
[21:20] but then they became friends
[21:21] Wearing blindfolds in Lorien
[21:21] Explain Val
[21:21] gimli just didnt like the elf race from the start in particular
[21:21] good example Val
[21:21] because of feuds etc
[21:21] "A plague on Dwarves and their stiff necks!" said Legolas.
[21:22] especially when they were talking at the council of elrond
[21:22] Gimli didn't want to wear a blindfold in Lorien, not because he didn't want the blindfold, but because he felt it a slur on his race
[21:22] Wasn't that part of the reason a Hobbit was chosen to carry the ring...because no one could agree on any other race?
[21:22] exactly val
[21:22] Legolas showed loyalty to the Fellowship when he also offered to wear the blindfold
[21:22] i think you are right Prog
[21:22] The Hobbit volunteered to take the ring.
[21:23] Only because the others couldn't stop arguing
[21:23] Only after Aragorn's rebuff, Whybother.
[21:23] but thats in the film
[21:23] but no one argued as vehemnetly that a hobbit shouldn't be the ring bearer as the dwarves against the elves and vice versa
[21:23] I am an Elf and a kinsman here", Said Legolas, becoming angry in his turn.
[21:23] "Now let us cry: "a plague on the stiff neckd of Elves!" said Aragorn.
[21:23] yes he did, but thy only agreed becuse the others couln't stop argueing
[21:24] true Mellie
[21:24] wish i could type faster
[21:24] lol
[21:24] ditto
[21:24] It is also interesting as they enter Lothlorien, that Legolas mentions the evil that the Dwarves unleashed.
[21:25] yea, gimli did not really like that
[21:25] The same evil that had just killed Gandalf
[21:25] Elven Arrogance
[21:25] not at all, he became quite defensive infact
[21:25] as if the elves never made a mistake
[21:26] possibly, Prog. But remember the Elves probably stilled harboured resentment for the murder of Thingol.
[21:26] yep, and i think the defensive mode was to cover up the twing of guilt over it too.
[21:26] ...even though they more than got their vengence
[21:27] At what point in LOTR do we see a friendshop develope between Legolas and Gimli?
[21:27] brb
[21:27] In Lorien
[21:27] Hmmm
[21:28] When Gimli realises Galadriel isn't a witch
[21:28] yes, that is part of it.
[21:28] yes, val, I think you are right again
[21:28] * Grondmaster has joined #Bilbos-Study
[21:28] * Barliman sets mode: +v Grondmaster
[21:28] That's right
[21:28] Welcome Grondmaster
[21:28] welcome grondy
[21:28] Grondy!
[21:28] * Whybother has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)
[21:28] glad you finally found us
[21:29] Hmph
[21:29] * Barliman sets mode: +o Grondmaster
[21:29] LOL
[21:29] did you see my postBody?
[21:29] my fault grondmaster, sorry
[21:29] That's a dwarvish expreesion Grondy
[21:29] Mmmmm
[21:29] anyway, what was the turning point in Legolas and Gimli's relationship
[21:30] Carry on I was here as whybother before
[21:30] Definitely when Gimli meets Galadriel as Val said
[21:30] oh, ic. I wondered if we offended whybother.
[21:30] i thought val already answered that. When Gimli realises Galadriel isn't a witch
[21:30] partly, but there was something much more significant that happened.
[21:30] The friendship really takes off at Helm's Deep
[21:31] yes it really does, Val
[21:31] When they start counting kills
[21:31] "Hear all ye Elves!" she cried to those abut her. "Let none say again that Dwarves are grasping and ungracious!"
[21:31] I think Galadriel gave permission to forgive the race of dwarves.
[21:32] (thnx red head feeling woozy so stepping out have fun)
[21:32] * Dagaz has left #Bilbos-Study
[21:32] Interesting...I never thought of that
[21:32] Never looked at it like that before but you are right
[21:32] She also gave Gimli a special gift.
[21:32] A bit of herself
[21:32] 3 strands of her hair
[21:33] Was it only 3 strands?
[21:33] yes and with that came a charm, so to speak.
[21:33] I don't remeber that
[21:33] i think so, not sure
[21:33] "Gimli, son of Gloin, that your hands shall flow with gold, and yet over you gold shall have no dominion."
[21:33] Gimli was certainly charmed
[21:33] yes he was.
[21:33] Be-witched one might say
[21:33] This would be completely out of character for Dwarves
[21:33] Hmm...I wonder
[21:33] lol
[21:34] He could see treasure beyond gold
[21:34] wonder what, Prog?
[21:34] That would indeed be unual for a dwarf, Val
[21:34] unusual*
[21:34] Perhaps Galadriel did put a spell on Gimli
[21:35] for the sake of the quest
[21:35] after Grondy's comment, I was wondering the same thing Prog
[21:35] never looked at it like that
[21:35] til now
[21:35] I don't think it was for the sake of the quest, I think it was for the sake of peace in Middle Earth
[21:35] She saw that Boromir was the danger but she cast no spell on hi9m
[21:35] I don't think so I just think Gimli saw Galadriel for the goodness she was
[21:36] What she gave Gimli was a remarkable gift.
[21:36] I agree Grondy.
[21:36] so do I...it was just a thought
[21:36] yes, but there needed to be more peace between dwarves and elves. and I think Frodo need boromir to give him that extra push to leave the fellowship.
[21:36] But did she give it, or did she see that he already had it?
[21:36] Yet he was charmed before she gave it to him because he asked for it in the first place
[21:37] interesting point grondmaster.
[21:37] He asked for a strand of her hair which he planned to set in crystal if he survived the quest
[21:38] Wonder if he ever did
[21:38] charmed and asked very humbly and eloquently
[21:38] I think Galadriel was so moved by his words that she gave him the "charm" as a gift
[21:39] I kinda think he did Val, I seem to recall seeing it somewhere, but not sure where at them moment
[21:39] was she that powerful?
[21:39] And what about his boatride at the end?
[21:40] Indeed, did she need to be that powerful. Gimli was so taken with her that he probably would not be overtaken by greed for gold anymore anyway.
[21:40] But it was alos the fact that they, Gimli and Legolas, were facing a common foe, or foes...adversity brings people together
[21:40] I think that is the case... He learned there was more to life than gold
[21:41] also**
[21:41] good point Prog.
[21:41] and friendship was a great thing for Gimli to learn with an elf
[21:41] I think Tolkien was trying to make a point with this friendship between the Elf and the Dwarf
[21:42] He did play on it a bit
[21:42] * M_i_a_U has joined #Bilbos-Study
[21:42] * Barliman sets mode: +v M_i_a_U
[21:43] The war had the effect of bringing many races together though
[21:43] Woses, Rohirrim
[21:43] Many nations harbour hatred towards one another for centuries for something hurt from the distant past.
[21:43] too true
[21:43] Cloing the doors of Moria had not gone down well
[21:44] Galadriel had been in Eregion at the time
[21:45] no, it seemed the bitterness was just going to continue. But in order to defeat Sauron, this had to be resolved somehow.
[21:45] perhaps, tolkien did not approve of racism, and by having many races work together in his books to over come a long standing strife, he was saying that all races in real life could work togher as well.
[21:45] agreed, Mellie
[21:45] quite possible...likely even
[21:46] Tolkien must have seen this in S Africa
[21:46] Gimli certainly was not the stereotype Dwarf, just as Frodo was not the stereotype hobbit
[21:46] that is what i was thinking val, but didn't he leave S Africa at 4 yrs old?
[21:46] quite true
[21:46] very ture nell
[21:46] And Sam was there because he was not the steriotype adventurer
[21:46] * M_i_a_U has left #Bilbos-Study
[21:47] but did the friendship between elf and dwarf continue beyond Legolas and Gimli?
[21:47] no, he was just a very loyal friend, in the beginning.
[21:47] no, one of the things that struck me as I was reading about the Dwarves and Hobbits is some of the similities.
[21:47] Most of the elves left shortly after the war
[21:47] LOL good point Val
[21:47] But some stayed for a while too
[21:48] * Duke1 has joined #bilbos-study
[21:48] exactly Val and we don't have a lot of information about what happened afterward.
[21:48] * Barliman sets mode: +v Duke1
[21:48] Couldn't stand the dwarves probably
[21:48] hello Duke1
[21:48] * Duke1 has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)
[21:48] goodbye duke 1 LOL
[21:48] So how did Gimli get permission to enter Valinor?
[21:48] I think it may be safe to assume since Gimli became the Lord of the Glittering Caves, that at least his people would be friends with the elves.
[21:49] i don't wanna believe that val. ( couldn't stand the dwarves probably)
[21:49] that is reasonable, Red
[21:50] What about Helm's Deep. What indication do we see of a true friendship developing between Legolas and Gimli
[21:50] yes nell, i think so. and he entered Valinor because of the fellowship, and his infatuation with Galadriel, and gandalf, and legolas
[21:50] I think after the war the Mirkwood elves and Iron Hill dwarves would have been friends. They died side by side
[21:50] Definitely the banter about the game
[21:50] good point, Val. Against a common enemy.
[21:51] yes, Prog, I loved that.
[21:51] there is a point when leglas says that he is glad that gimli is still around.
[21:51] I sensed some concern in Legolas when he askes Aragorn if he has seen Gimli.
[21:51] Their friendly game, was not a contest as such, but just was fun
[21:51] I always got the impression that Legolas was killing more than Gimli, but was conceeding kills to him
[21:52] * Galadhril has joined #bilbos-study
[21:52] and the way Gimli fills Legolas's ear about the caves
[21:52] * Barliman sets mode: +v Galadhril
[21:52] i wondered that too val
[21:52] That could very well be, Val
[21:53] What about when they reach Isengard? Do you think the Hobbits would notice a difference with Legolas and Gimli?
[21:54] Yes
[21:54] yes,
[21:54] but i don't remember them making comments on it
[21:54] If they weren't wrapped up in everything else
[21:54] And they did have a lot to tell
[21:54] maybe that was y no comments were made val
[21:54] I don't think M and P were especially observant Hobbits
[21:54] they all did
[21:55] no but they did see the changes happening because of Galdariel
[21:55] I sensed a real joy all way round in that chapter.
[21:55] Definitely Red
[21:55] But wasn't the change because of Galadriel, Mel?
[21:55] sure friends reunited
[21:56] A lot of friends had thought each other dead
[21:56] joy, everyone was much closer and relaxed around each other.
[21:56] percisely.
[21:56] They'd all had time to overcome their prejudices
[21:57] I don't think that Galadriel was the sole reason for G and L's aimicability though
[21:57] yes, but the hobbits still got to see part of the change happening, so after they were reunited they were not as surprised about the rest of the changes.
[21:57] * Galadhril has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)
[21:57] What else do you contribute it to, Prog?
[21:57] they are all excited just to see each other
[21:58] They both realised that each other was a good sound chap
[21:58] nicely put, Val
[21:58] Well, as I already said, they were on a very difficult quest together facing common foes
[21:58] and also...
[21:59] i think gimli was greatful, that legolas offered to wear the blindfold too.
[21:59] Legolas didn't exactly offer...
[21:59] Aragorn pushed that one.
[21:59] I think that perhaps elves and dwarves had not spent much time with each other so they were both probably unsure of what to expect at first
[21:59] G & L learned they could rely on each other
[22:00] Running 60 leagues across Rohan brought them closer
[22:00] * Ambs has quit IRC (Quit: Ambs)
[22:00] people do come closer when they experience some traumatic event together.
[22:00] for sure, especially in Helm's Deep
[22:00] but then as they spent time with each other they learned they had much in common
[22:00] an appreciation for beauty
[22:00] it was Aragorn that pushed that, wasn't it. ooops forgot that part
[22:00] though in different things
[22:01] It is interesting that the Elves felt the Dwarves did not appreciate beauty, yet look at their stonework
[22:01] exactly
[22:01] ..and the Elves had asked the Dwarves to set the Simaril
[22:01] and also that the other didn't fit the stereotypes that they had been brought up with
[22:01] it was definitly beautiful
[22:02] the dwarves only loved things they had made
[22:02] Wasn't it the Dwarves that had built Doriath for Thingol
[22:02] i don't remember val
[22:02] maybe,
[22:02] Legolas must have had a different perspective on the Dwarves after he saw Moria
[22:02] It was Val and Mellie
[22:02] I think so Val
[22:02] they dug too deep and awakened Balrogs
[22:03] thanks grondy, i was about to look it up
[22:03] I don't think Legolas appreciated Moria though
[22:03] To him it was a tomb
[22:04] well, when Leggy saw Moria it wasn't exactly at its best
[22:04] he may not have appreciated it, but was still impressed with its beauty, tomb or not.
[22:04] and so it was at that point..
[22:04] I would think he would have to notice the workmanship, Mel
[22:05] yes. the workmanship and the time and care that went in to it.
[22:05] and he might have felt more sympathetic towards gimli to see him over balins tomb, and so upset at the once grand mines
[22:05] good point, iluuvatar
[22:05] Quite possible
[22:05] yes Iluvatar
[22:05] oops i just stepped on a cat
[22:06] LOL
[22:06] Best thing for them
[22:06] There was an amazing growth of character in Gimli through the LOTR
[22:06] scared me. but she is ok
[22:06] not so much in legolas but being immortal you don't change very easily
[22:07] That is what I had noticed too Prog.
[22:07] his friendship with Gimli aside of course
[22:07] and Gimili in Balin's Tomb showed that Dwarves hav a soft side
[22:07] yes, gimli grows, and legolas, does, but still remains very mysterious. legolas, does not grow as much
[22:07] Tolerance was the only real change I saw in Legolas
[22:07] both changed in that way nell
[22:08] Gimli had to really face his fears when following Aragorn through Death Gate.
[22:08] Gimli didn't like the Paths of the Dead either
[22:08] That man was absolutely terrified!
[22:08] Dwarf*
[22:08] yes he was
[22:08] That was a very intense scene
[22:08] me to
[22:08] I found it very intense too
[22:09] I felt pretty sorry for him
[22:09] I felt the fear and dust
[22:09] He seemed alone in showing his fear
[22:09] Agreed Grondy!!
[22:09] neither we happy to be there. I was on the edge of my seat during that whole scene.
[22:09] me too, it was a very well written scene
[22:09] that's a good way to put it
[22:09] very well written.
[22:10] I found that the climax, so to speak, in Gimli's journey
[22:10] Once he overcame that, he was ready for anything.
[22:10] lying in bed reading that and then have a cat jump on me scared me to death.
[22:10] I cannot remember too much of Gimli after that
[22:10] and the time out to look at the body just hieghtened that sense
[22:10] Now that you mention it...that's very true
[22:11] I don't think there was much to left to tell about Gimli after that. We knew he was worthy of all his acolades at that point.
[22:11] Must read that bit again.. It's been several year
[22:11] Once they reached the Stone, it was Aragorn's story
[22:11] Dwarves weren't very spiritual I guess....Gimli was not used to facing mortality in that way
[22:11] exactly, Grondmaster.
[22:12] yes it really was.
[22:12] up to that time we were learning about G & L
[22:12] Dwarves wouldn't be very spiritual, I suppose, because of the way in which they were created.
[22:12] That's true. Never really analized it like that before
[22:13] perhaps superstitious, but not mystical in the way of elves or even men to a degre
[22:13] hmmm, i think you are right. never thought about it that way nell.
[22:13] right, Prog.
[22:13] good point prog
[22:13] They did worship Mahal though
[22:14] They wanted to be buried on stone not in dirt
[22:14] well, since they were asleep in stone for such a long time, that would make sense.
[22:14] well, they came from stone, why not end on stone.
[22:15] Didn't they believe that by being buried in stone, and that they came from stone, would give them re-life
[22:15] but only the original 13 came from stone
[22:15] I don't know, Val
[22:15] How come one didn't have a mate
[22:15] Was that in the Sil
[22:15] this is true, the original ones that aule made. but i thought there were only 7 grondy
[22:16] hmm...that's an interesting question Val
[22:16] they had six wives
[22:16] The oldest Durin did not have a mate.
[22:16] I think it was mentioned after the battle of Azanibizar when a lot had to be burned
[22:16] oh ok, grondy, i will go back and check taht out.
[22:17] would have taken too long to build tombs
[22:17] that*
[22:17] makes sense.
[22:18] Well, unless anyone has any other input tonight, class is dismissed
[22:18] dust to dust for men, stone to stone for Dwarves
[22:18] Has there been a case of kin-slaying between dwarves?
[22:18] Thank-you for all your comments. I learned a lot tonight.
[22:18] another ionteresting question
[22:18] interesting, Val.
[22:19] Thank you for the class Rednell
[22:19] if there wasn't that would give the dwarvfes something to hold over the elves heads
[22:19] * MellieGone has joined #bilbos-study
[22:19] * Barliman sets mode: +v MellieGone
[22:20] "at least we've never killed our own kind"
[22:20] I would have thought their lust for gold would have sparked one, but I cannot recall reading about it
[22:20] I don't remember any reference to Dwarves in battle with one another
[22:20] am i here again? lost the connection
[22:20] and the men certainly couldn't say that either
[22:20] very true
[22:20] You are Melliegone Mellie
[22:20] Tolkien made Men rather weak though
[22:20] There seemed to be plenty of gold to go around for the dwarves.
[22:21] i see this
[22:21] or hobbits for that matter..
[22:21] Probably for good reason, Val
[22:21] that's extraordinary
[22:21] I never thought of that
[22:22] Hobbits didn't kill their own kind until Saraumon got holds of the shire.
[22:22] but even still
[22:22] very true nell
[22:22] You could imagine a few wishing to throw LSB on a pyre
[22:22] Smeagol
[22:22] LOL
[22:22] by making men weak he increase the strenghth od the other racers without having to make the super beings
[22:22] both
[22:23] I find it interesting the the Dwarves guarded their language and culture very closely, as the Hobbits were also protected from the outside world.
[22:23] very good point grondy.
[22:23] That's true Grondy.. In a way it's a trick writer use
[22:23] That is an excellant point Grondy
[22:23] My fingers stumbled again though
[22:24] * Sindal has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)
[22:24] It's okay Grondy, we'll all appear illiterate in the transcript
[22:24] lol
[22:24] i know i will
[22:24] lol
[22:24] Big Smile Smilie
[22:24] Well, shall we retire to the other room?
Top of Page | Bottom of Page
PlasticSquirrel
has made 3579 posts and is a Hobbit from Buckland and is not online.
Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
How very illiterate you seem Val and Grondy Wink Smilie

Shame to have missed it, but there was free food on offer at Ma and Pa's so I couldn't turn it down. Good stuff again though guys.
Top of Page | Bottom of Page
Valedhelgwath
has made 4245 posts and is an Elf from Rivendell and is not online.
Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
Thanks, Rednell. Excellant discussion.
Quote:
Shame to have missed it, but there was free food on offer at Ma and Pa's so I couldn't turn it down. Good stuff again though guys.
That's no excuse, Plastic. You could have filled your pockets and run. Big Smile Smilie
Top of Page | Bottom of Page
Gimli_axe_wielder
has made 561 posts and is a Dwarf from Glittering Caves and is not online.
Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
DANG IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I Missed it!!! Sad SmilieSad SmilieSad SmilieSad SmilieSad SmilieSad Smilie

I gonna go cry now.. Very Sad Smilie
Top of Page | Bottom of Page
PlasticSquirrel
has made 3579 posts and is a Hobbit from Buckland and is not online.
Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
Quote:
That's no excuse, Plastic. You could have filled your pockets and run. Big Smile Smilie

You've never met my Ma, it's not an option, trust me...
Top of Page | Bottom of Page
Rednell
has made 1808 posts and is a Dunedain from Osgiliath and is not online.
Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
In The Book of Lost Tales, Christopher Tolkien states, 'In the early writings the Dwarves are always portrayed as evil people.' I do not think that these are the dwarves that eventually found their way into the Middle Earth of the Lord of the Rings. Although Tolkien does suggest that dwarves in the two most eastern regions had become evil in some way, he gives us very little background, other than the statement made by one of Turin's men. Tolkien did not elaborate on the tales of Androg and the relationship between his people and the dwarves.
As far as the Last Alliance, the Dwarves were quite busy fighting their own battles with the Orcs and dragons to have any interest in joining either side of the war.
That is not to say that the Dwarves did not commit, what could be perceived as, evil deeds. An evil act does not, in itself, determine whether a person is evil. Many fall victim to circumstance and through fear, greed, jealousy, grief or vengeance commit some horrible offence. Indeed, it would seem, few of the peoples of Middle Earth were incapable of falling victim to circumstances. Tolkien's world mirrors our own, in that, evil and good are neither, purely black and white, as there will always be that gray area.

In his letters, Tolkien describes the dwarves:
Quote:
They are not naturally evil, not necessarily hostile, and not a kind of maggot-folk bred in stone; but a variety of incarnate rational creature.


[Edited on 30/10/2002 by Rednell]
Top of Page | Bottom of Page
Valedhelgwath
has made 4245 posts and is an Elf from Rivendell and is not online.
Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)
Quote:
Has there been a case of kin-slaying between dwarves?
Quote:
if there wasn't that would give the dwarves something to hold over the elves heads
Quote:
I would have thought their lust for gold would have sparked one, but I cannot recall reading about it
Quote:
I don't remember any reference to Dwarves in battle with one another
In case this question had left anyone wondering, I found the following passage in the Silmarillion last night, in Chapter 10, Of the Sindar.
Quote:
A warlike race of old were all the Naugrim, and they would fight fiercely against whomsoever aggrieved them: servants of Melkor, or Eldar, or Avari, or wild beasts, or not seldom their own kin, Dwarves of other mansions and lordships.
Guess they were not adverse to killing anything then, including each other.
Top of Page | Bottom of Page