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Thread: Week 4 - The Half-Elven

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Here is a little of the geneology of the Half-Elven:
There were 3 marriages between the Elves and Men.
The first marriage was that of Beren and Luthien. Beren was Edain Lord of Dorthonain and Luthien was the daughter of the Elven King Thingol and the Maia, Melian. With this union Luthien chooses to give up her immortality. They had a son, Dior.
The second union was between Tuor, chieftain of the Third House of the Edain and Idril, daughter of Elven King Turgon. They have a son, Earendil who marries Dior's daughter, Elwing. Earendil has 2 sons, Elros and Elrond.
According to Tolkien:
The view is that the Half-Elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin’s fate they share.

Elros chooses to be mortal and becomes the first king of Numenor, the beginning of the Dunedain royal line. All of Elros' line are mortal, albeit, with longevity. Elrond chooses the immortality of the Elves and because he marries Celebrian, daughter of Elven Queen, Galadriel the Elven strain is renewed in the blood of his children, Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen. With this, Elrond’s children are given the choice of living a mortal life or the Elven kind.
The third Elven-Human marriage was that of Aragorn, who is a descendant of the line of Elros, and the Elven Princess, Arwen. This union brings the Maia/Elven/Human line back together.

From The Letters of JRR Tolkien:
The entering into Men of the Elven-Strain is indeed represented as part of a Divine Plan for the ennoblement of the Human Race from the beginning destined to replace the Elves.

The contact of Men and Elves already foreshadows the history of the later ages, and a recurrent theme is the idea that in Men (as they now are) there is a strand of 'blood' and inheritance, derived from the Elves, and that the art and poetry of Men is largely dependent on it, or modified by it.

Was it important that the Maia and Elven bloodline be reunited again with the marriage of Arwen and Aragorn?

What did the bloodline of the Maia and the Elves bring to ennoble Man in preparation for their rule over Middle Earth?

See you Sunday.

[Edited on 31/10/2002 by Rednell]
Grondy merely fixed the asscii numbers.
[Edited on 1/11/2002 by Rednell]

[Edited on 1/11/2002 by Grondmaster]
It's a few days late, but well done again on Sunday, Rednell. Another really enjoyable class. Is Taz going to post the transcript again?
Thank you Rednell for the wonderful class on Sunday! I really enjoyed it.
As follows:
[21:14] Elven-Man marriages were not common. Which couples had mixed elven/men marriages?
[21:14] aragorn and arwen, beren and luithien.
[21:15] one more
[21:15] earendil and elwing.
[21:15] Beren /Luthien, Aragorn, Arwen Dior Elwing, Imrazor/Mithrellas
[21:15] dior was elven/mair
[21:15] maiar*
[21:16] Tuor/Idril
[21:16] earendil was half elven
[21:16] so was arwen
[21:16] and the answer is Tuor/Idril
[21:17] earendil was the son of whom
[21:17] Dior/Nimloth
[21:17] tuor/indril
[21:17] No that was Elwing
[21:18] Tour
[21:18] right.
[21:18] tour/idril
[21:19] Given the life span of the elf and the life span of the man, there must have been an awful sacrifice for the elf.
[21:19] what kind of choices were made?
[21:20] love is often like that
[21:20] to chose between love for the mortal you marry and love for your immortal life
[21:20] Tuor went with Idril to Undying lands
[21:21] Arwen became mortal
[21:21] Nimrodels cleared off after giving Imrazor 2 children
[21:21] * Mellie2 has joined #Bilbos-Study
[21:21] * Barliman sets mode: +v Mellie2
[21:21] hi mellie!
[21:21] Luthien became mortal
[21:21] hello?
[21:22] Mithrellas not Nimrodel
[21:22] hi Samwisegamgee+
[21:23] am I in the right place?
[21:23] The choice was given to Elwing, Elrond and Elros, would this be due in part to their Maiar descent?
[21:23] The lady elf also gave up her elven family
[21:23] it was also a sacrifice for the elves, to lose one of their own to mortalitly.
[21:23] yes, Mellie, welcome
[21:23] yes you are mellie
[21:24] i think because elwing is decended from luthien and beren
[21:24] Tuor never had maiar blood so probably not
[21:25] * Mellie has joined #bilbos-study
[21:25] * Barliman sets mode: +v Mellie
[21:25] Elwing was the daughter of Dior and Nimloth
[21:25] yes
[21:25] so she she would have Maiar blood
[21:26] right
[21:26] But Tuor who didn't was allowed immortality
[21:26] * Mellie2 has quit IRC (Client exited)
[21:26] because he married an elf.
[21:26] granted by Manwe, was it not, Val?
[21:27] I believe it was Manwe, although I think he had to consult with Eru
[21:27] as in all things
[21:28] I know of four unions and all made different choices
[21:28] Elrond and Elros were given the choice. What did they chose?
[21:28] choose*
[21:28] and what were they val?
[21:28] i think they chose to linger for a time and delay their choice, is what it said
[21:28] * Mellie has quit IRC (Quit: Mellie)
[21:29] oh sorry, that 's what elldan and elrohir did, not elrond and elros
[21:29] Elrond, elvish path... Elros, mortal
[21:29] elrond chose to be an elf and elros a man.
[21:29] * Dagaz has joined #bilbos-study
[21:29] * Barliman sets mode: +v Dagaz
[21:29] hello dagaz
[21:29] * Dagaz nods
[21:29] Why would Elrond's children be given a choice and not Elros children?
[21:29] * Mellie has joined #bilbos-study
[21:29] * Barliman sets mode: +v Mellie
[21:30] Because once a man always a man
[21:30] was elros's wife a mortal or an elf?
[21:30] Because elrond married an elf, Elros married a human
[21:30] mortal
[21:30] alright, then i agree with val
[21:30] bye
[21:30] * Dagaz has left #bilbos-study
[21:31] And I believe Grondy is right too, once a mortal, always a mortal (except Tuor)
[21:31] why do you think manwe made the exception?
[21:31] Do we know who Elros' wife was?
[21:32] But was there no elvish blood passed down Elros line at all?
[21:32] I've always put it down to a whim of Tolkien
[21:32] no, grondmaster.
[21:32] at least not in any resources that I ahve
[21:32] yes, i suppose it was just that he liked the character of tuor so much he wanted to favor him, every postAuthorID does
[21:32] no, we don't grondmaster
[21:33] sure elvish blood was passed down, but it may have been recessive
[21:33] What about Aragorn, he did have unique abilities. Were these because of his elvish or maia blood?
[21:33] i think because of his numenroean blood
[21:34] or was he just a strong man.
[21:34] both of what you said rednell
[21:34] which came from elven/maian blood
[21:34] yes, i forgot that grondmaster
[21:35] Numenorian blood.... Faramir had more elven blood than Aragorn
[21:35] Was this the plan of Eru, that man's blood would have to be strengthen with elven/maia blood in in order for them to come into their rule of Middle Earth.
[21:35] * Mellie has left #bilbos-study
[21:35] and faramir had just as many abilities as aragorn
[21:36] Faramir didn't have the maia bloodline though, did he Val?
[21:36] I don't thin Faramir had long life
[21:36] think*
[21:36] That's true, Nell
[21:36] It must be the maian blood that is the strong bit then
[21:37] I think that is the uniqueness that Aragorn possessed
[21:37] i think that men would come to rule ME even without maiar blood, it was the elves destiny to fade
[21:37] Maian blood would be the Flame Imperishable
[21:37] Bur it was Eru's plan, and the Lord works in mysterious ways
[21:38] Elrond knew of Aragorn's bloodline, why was he so resistant to Arwen's choice?
[21:38] Because he was mortal
[21:38] because he loved her and did not want her to die
[21:38] because he didn't want to lose his daughter
[21:39] and he had seen the decay of men over his lifetime
[21:39] but the joining of Arwen and Aragorn brings the maia blood back together. This was best for Middle Earth and for the Maia
[21:39] he did not fully understand mortals
[21:39] Aragorn wasn't the man that Elendil was
[21:40] Isildur was the problem
[21:40] but Elrond knew the time was near for the Elves to leave Middle Earth in the hands of man
[21:40] isildur was weak, and aragorn was isildurs heir
[21:40] Who told him that?
[21:40] yes, Isildur did mess the whole plan up a bit.
[21:40] who told him what?
[21:40] That it was the time of man
[21:41] Was it preordained that the elves would leave, or were they just going
[21:41] Elrond knew the time of the elves was coming to an end. Who else was there but man.
[21:41] Where was it written for Elrond to read
[21:41] i think it was preordained. but the elves couldn't know that, they are not ainur
[21:41] I think it was prordained.
[21:42] Someone must have told Elrond, but the third theme was by Eru alone
[21:42] How was Elrond to know, coul;d he reqad tea leaves
[21:42] gandalf, perhaps?
[21:42] Only Eru should have known the future of man and elves
[21:43] And maybe Mandos
[21:43] Eru works through people, through manwe and mandos, so why should he not work through elrond?
[21:43] he said that Arwen would not marry any man less he was the king
[21:44] I think he just saw that his people were leaving ME and were no longer going to be the dominant power
[21:44] i think that was a challenge to aragorn, sort of like saying, okay, you want to marry arwen, you have to claim what is yours first
[21:44] Which was just the old plot to get rid of Beren played out a second time
[21:44] so you do not think it was preordained, val, but simply comman wisdom?
[21:45] true, grondmaster, good point
[21:45] But if he felt man was so weak, wouldn't he see that the elven strain would strengthen them
[21:45] I think he knew Gondor/ Arnor must be reunited and it gave Aragorn an incentive to do it
[21:45] good point
[21:45] i think he thought that it would weaken the elven strain
[21:46] It needed doing and Elrond sacrificed his daughter to do it
[21:46] remember that Elrond was half elven
[21:46] I sense Gandalf's hand working in the background in all this, and we know who his boss was, right
[21:46] elrond did not want to sacrifice his daughter though
[21:46] Aragorn's son would then be strong like his brother Elros
[21:46] that is what I sense, too grondmaster
[21:46] i think elrond regretted his brothers choice as he did his daughters
[21:47] And perhaps his sons
[21:47] Gandalf got the word to Elrond, who put up a high hoop for Aragorn to jump through
[21:47] sorry, i have to go. i look forward to reading about how this discussion comes out later.
[21:47] * Samwisegamgee has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)
[21:48] ah, you think so?
[21:48] but it was part of the plan
[21:49] Why Aragorn, then, and not any of the preceeding Rangers?
[21:49] because of the Maia blood
[21:49] Would man have been strong enough though if there was not the elven mix
[21:49] All the other Rangers of his line had that
[21:49] Aragorn was descended from Elros
[21:50] Chieftains, I( should have said
[21:50] perhaps the maia blood was stronger in him. Afterall, he had healing powers.
[21:50] Val, you mean why not one of Aragorn's fathers?
[21:50] It was a direct line, father to son, so all his ancesters on that line would have had the blood
[21:50] Yes
[21:51] but the bloodline would weaken with each mortal marriage.
[21:51] The blood was thinning with every generation.... Was it just a case of the time is right?
[21:51] but maybe the fullness of time had not yet arrived until Aragorn's time
[21:51] That is why I believe it was preordained. Why else would Aragorn be the one with the maia blood evident by his healing powers.
[21:52] And he had spent time among the other free peoples learning their ways, like in Rohan and Gondor
[21:52] He was said to be more like Elandil than any before him
[21:52] just as I believe that Aragorn and Awen had to be married to unit the bloodline.
[21:53] I agree Rednell, by doing that what came after would be strong enough to last
[21:54] For a time
[21:54] yes, and would prevent any more renegad maia bloodlines out there.
[21:54] True, it did tie the knot at both ends
[21:54] And we had to get rid of Sauron too
[21:55] for a time, yes, Val. But if we look at Middle Earth as a time before us then the time of the loss of any trace of the strenght of the bloodline is gone./
[21:55] I am sure Tolkien could not see anything left of Middle Earth in UK during the war.
[21:56] True
[21:56] It begs the question of what the twins did
[21:57] I do wish Tolkien had addressed that issue.
[21:57] Didn't Celeborn stay too?
[21:57] It does mean that there was still maia blood out there, albeit, mostly elven
[21:58] Maybe to pop up with a new heir each time it gets to thin and men become too weak
[21:58] as far as we know, I think Celeborn did stay.
[21:59] no, I really think that the twins would decide to leave.
[21:59] or die
[21:59] Elros provided the line of leaders of men and Elrond was their to try to nuture them when it was time, except Isildur wouldn't listen.
[21:59] That's a good point Grondy
[21:59] Even if they had mortal lives they would be very long and as you have addressed in the forum, that would be painful to watch friends just die of
[21:59] Like having two egg baskets
[22:00] That is an excellant point, Grondy
[22:01] But would the twins see that there was no place for the elves in Middle Earth and decide to leave?
[22:01] Had Isildur tossed the ring, Elrond might have been able to head west earlier
[22:01] I think in time they would, if they didn't choose to become mortal
[22:02] Are we talking about Elrond's twins here?
[22:02] If they chose to become mortal and married then we would be right back at the beginning again.
[22:02] yes
[22:03] Had Isildur tossed the ring, would man have been strong enough to rule Middle Earth?
[22:03] If the twins had married, then their heirs would not have been given the choice of immortality.
[22:04] Probably not, but then that wasn't Tolkien's story
[22:04] With the best intentions, they'd already messed up in Numenore, so perhaps no
[22:04] Hence there was method behind Tolkien's madness then.
[22:05] Sauron was around then to corrupt them, however
[22:05] This is true, good point.
[22:05] Maybe if Isidur had tossed the ring, there'd have been no Sauron, so they might have been okay
[22:06] Tolkien need all that time to pull all the loose strings together such that men would have the strenghth to rule when the elves finally left.
[22:06] needed*
[22:06] Maybe Arwen would have married one of Isildur's sons
[22:07] I suppose that would be possible, but it would have shortened the story just a bit.
[22:07] I think it was all timing, and for that, I smell the hand of Eru
[22:08] For sure, Val. Preordained.
[22:08] As you say, preordained.
[22:08] That's the thing, Rednell, it was written as a story... You have to work the facts around fiction so to speak
[22:09] And besides Tolkien need the four books to become immortalized in our history
[22:09] The point I wanted people to see was thebloodline of the man who would be king was strengthened by the blood of the maia and the elves.
[22:09] He wrote us an excellant story and left us to ponder the what ifs
[22:10] It certainly did that
[22:10] ... and that Arwen and Aragorn had to be married to bring that bloodline back into one again.
[22:10] It'd been bad if Eowyn had had her way
[22:10] The half-elven had a very important role in the shaping of the story.
[22:11] It would have ruined everything if Eowyn had her way.
[22:11] Right Rednell, but until I saw this weeks leson plan, I didn't know that was where we were headed. Now it all make sense. We just needed to see the big picture. Thanks.
[22:12] Because of the elven lore, they had always been like lords over the men. It was logical their blood would make kings of men
[22:12] I think most people miss that fact that Aragorn was more than just a man and Arwen more than just an elf.
[22:13] As Grondmaster, it does help make sense of things when you can follow the bloodline.
[22:13] I think they have to make a choice too, because of the final fate and the second music
[22:13] And the Maia blood gave them all an extra boost.
[22:13] That is where the magic comes in Grondmaster, so to speak.
[22:14] I would still like to know what choice the twins made. That drives me crazy.
[22:14] He did that on purpose
[22:15] Nice of him.