Week 5 - The Istari - Planet Tolkien

Thread: Week 5 - The Istari

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Taz
has made billions upon billions of posts and is an Uruk-Hai from Isengard and is not online.
Posted Thursday 1st January 1970 (12:00am)

And the log for this class is as follows:

Quote:
[21:06] What do we know about the Istari?
[21:07] They are Maiar
[21:07] good
[21:07] They were sent by the Valar in TA1000 to help counter the threat of Sauron
[21:07] come to assist the peoples of middle earth in the threat of sauron
[21:07] good
[21:07] They were more than likely Maiar
[21:08] they had great powers of mind and hand
[21:08] Hmm...that's not a fact?
[21:08] in what form did they come?
[21:08] human forn
[21:08] as old Men
[21:08] old men
[21:08] They were forbidden to match Sauron with power for power
[21:08] good
[21:08] any other conditions?
[21:08] so they wouldn't get big heads
[21:08] LOL
[21:09] They were not to rule/dominate, just guide
[21:09] but Saruman did
[21:09] good
[21:09] why do you suppose they came as old men?
[21:09] yes he did, but gandalf did not and neither did Radagast
[21:09] to inspire trust?
[21:09] To remind themselves of their limitations
[21:09] so they weren't threatening
[21:09] and appear wise
[21:09] * Joins: Samwisegamgee (pt@a6ce687f.du.bc333da3.com.hmsk)
[21:09] * Barliman sets mode: +v Samwisegamgee
[21:10] all very good points
[21:10] because they would appear as wise old men and not intimidate others
[21:10] or be too threatening
[21:10] rioght...if they looked like young little whipper snappers no one would think they were so wise
[21:11] good point
[21:11] people listen to wise old men, not young ones
[21:11] How did Saruman stray?
[21:12] He wanted to rule...wanted the power of the Ring
[21:12] he studied Sauron too hard
[21:12] He was too wise
[21:12] he went to the east and studied too much of Sauron's power
[21:13] Sauron beguiled him through the Palantir
[21:13] yes
[21:13] he coveted the ring and power for himself
[21:13] but he already come to desire the ring before then, right? or am I mistaken?
[21:13] before the palantir, you mean>
[21:13] yes
[21:13] all of these would indicate that he was breaking the rule frobidding him from matching Sauron's power with power.
[21:14] He'd been searching for it for a long time
[21:14] yes, that is why he used it, because of his desire for the ring
[21:14] and Saruman made a ring of his own, which I just discovered last night
[21:14] Another fallen maiar of Aule
[21:14] now that I did not know Grondy.
[21:14] really Grondy??
[21:14] Too attached to earthly things
[21:14] was he of aule?
[21:14] really grondy? I did not see that
[21:15] weren't all the Maiar part of the Aule?
[21:15] Both he and Sauron were Aule's maiar
[21:15] i didn'
[21:15] think so
[21:15] duh, nevermind
[21:15] what other instruction for the Valar did Saruman chose not to heed?
[21:15] from*
[21:16] Interfer with the affairs of others
[21:16] yes, but he went further than just interference
[21:16] very good val, i was struggleing with that one.
[21:16] Tried to rule them
[21:17] exactly
[21:17] Also created half orcs
[21:17] why was Saruman the leader of the White Council?
[21:17] Because he was Head of the Istari
[21:18] because he was the most powerful and wisest of the Istari
[21:18] He would have been seen as being the wisest of the wise
[21:18] because he was of a higher orde
[21:18] because he was the eldest wizard
[21:18] order*
[21:18] Was he not the first of the Istari, the eldar?
[21:18] Although Galadriel wanted Gandalf to lead council
[21:19] very good point, Val
[21:19] and he resented that
[21:19] I thought I read somewhere that olorin was considered wisest of all maiar
[21:19] the first sing of his corruption.
[21:19] You did, prog
[21:19] i read that too. aparently that's not what everyone else thought.
[21:19] Few would have known that in ME though
[21:19] which brings us to the Elven rings. Who were the original holders of the rings
[21:20] not not many would have associated Olorin with gandalf
[21:20] Gil galad, Cirdan, Galadriel
[21:20] Saruman probably told that to everyone
[21:20] Cirdan, galdriel Gilgald
[21:20] Gil Galad
[21:20] right
[21:20] sorry
[21:20] i don't think so grondmaster. he might have not wanted people to know.
[21:20] we know that Galadriel still holds her ring in LOTR, who have possession of the other 2?
[21:20] elrond and gandalf
[21:20] Gil-gads went to elrond and Cirdan's went to gandalf
[21:21] Gandalf and Elrond
[21:21] Why would Cirdan give his ring to a wizard?
[21:21] I can't seem to type
[21:21] Because it was wasted in the havens
[21:21] because he knew where gandalf came from
[21:21] and what was in store for gandalf
[21:21] He believed it would aid him in inspiring people
[21:21] good point val, hadn't thought of that
[21:21] He knew Gandalf had a lot more use for it
[21:22] seems kind of fortuous that Gandalf had the ring when most needed, doesn't it?
[21:22] Kindling a fire in peoples hearts so to speak
[21:22] i like that prog
[21:22] so do i
[21:22] good point PProg
[21:23] So did the ring keep Gandalf on track when the others couldn't
[21:23] that is a very good question, val
[21:23] hmmm, i wondered that tooo Valedhelgwath last night
[21:23] the others used the ring to guard what they had, gandalf used his to its full power
[21:23] I always thought it was Gandalf's nature but the ring might have had a part
[21:23] It seems Cirdan KNEW that the ring would fare best in Gandalfs hands
[21:24] i did too, until last night val
[21:24] yes it does seem like that.
[21:24] I agree Prog
[21:24] yes i think you are correct Prog
[21:24] Then why Gandalf and not saruman?#
[21:25] precisely
[21:25] cirdan might have mistrusted saurman as galadriel did
[21:25] Cirdan saw something in Gandalf
[21:25] Saruman was already showing signs of disobediance, so to speak
[21:25] perhaps cirdan, suspected saurman
[21:25] yes Mell
[21:25] He'd never met any of them before... He must have seen something in Gandalf
[21:25] Cirdan saw farther into the future of ME
[21:25] wouldn't he have met them if he was in the Council?
[21:25] that's it grondy
[21:26] yes i agree grondy
[21:26] I agree with you Grondy
[21:26] Did he give the ring when he first met Gandalf, or later?
[21:26] was cirdan in the council? i don't remember
[21:26] Cirdan was on the council
[21:26] I believe it waas right away
[21:26] later, before he went to the havens
[21:26] i don't think it said, val, but i would think when he first met him
[21:26] When Gandalf first came east over the sea
[21:27] I thought it was on first meeting him, must admit
[21:27] I don't think Saruman could hide his nature from Cirdan.
[21:27] i agree with you on that
[21:27] is when the red ring changed hands
[21:27] Maybe didn't trust Aule's servants
[21:27] did it ever specify whos servent gandalf was
[21:27] Cirdan may have seen Gandalf as the only hope for Middle Earth.
[21:28] Exactly...but even if Saruman showed no outward signs of his potential for treachery, perhaps Cirdan could sense something deeper
[21:28] Radagast certainly did not garner much respect.
[21:28] Gandalf was a servant of Lorien and Nienna but came on the bidding of Manwe
[21:28] i see
[21:29] Radagast was only sent because Yavanna requested saruman take him
[21:29] and the blue dudes weren't special enough to earn more than a mention
[21:29] radagast was not worried about elves and humans but about nature
[21:29] The red rings main power is to instill HOPE
[21:29] They went into the East and the South
[21:29] east and south are lands we don't hear much about
[21:30] It seems strange that the 5 wizards were sent to contest the power of Sauron, but only Gandalf proved worthy
[21:30] Cirdan knew Gandalf would need that
[21:30] i think it is because he had the ring
[21:30] Gandalf didn't want the task either because he was afraid of sauron
[21:30] He must have felt almost abandoned and discouraged at times.
[21:31] Well Saruman surely wasn't worthy...but perhaps the others did more than we know...behind the scenes
[21:31] that's what it think prog
[21:31] Radagast helped prevent the spread of evil through mirkwood
[21:32] Is it possible that Sarumon wanted the ring so Sauron could be overthrown, that this was the solution he sought.
[21:32] yes and Radagast also ended up saving gandalf's life
[21:32] after unwittingly putting his life in danger.
[21:32] then why would he not tell it to the council?
[21:32] Hmmm...yes but for his own purposes
[21:32] maybe in the beginning Nel
[21:32] I believe that was his intention at the start
[21:33] It wasn't the ring that corrupted him though. He never saw it
[21:33] so was it the ring that corrupted him or his own power
[21:33] his own power
[21:33] I think Saruman had an innate desire to dominate
[21:33] the palantir?
[21:34] i think his own power corrupted him before the palantir
[21:34] The palantir was the final straw
[21:34] yes, exactly.
[21:34] absolute power corrupts absolutely
[21:34] he that studies evil is open to be curupted by evil
[21:34] that certaintly seems to be a common theme. maybe that is what happened to sauron
[21:34] very good point grondy
[21:35] his studies took him down a dark path
[21:35] he was trying to see what made Sauron tick
[21:35] Like a criminal profiler becoming a serial killer
[21:35] not that that happens
[21:35] Was it necessary for Gandalf to die in Moria?
[21:35] Yes
[21:35] good analogy prog
[21:36] yes
[21:36] why?
[21:36] He needed to shed the earthly constraints and return with his full power
[21:36] As Gandalf the White, he was Olorin
[21:36] good point val
[21:36] The thought has occured to me that Gandalf ALLOWED himself to fall
[21:36] that is interesting prog.
[21:37] did he know then that if the quest was to succeed that he had to die?
[21:37] it's possible I suppose
[21:37] i don't think so
[21:37] Aragorn kept hinting at such
[21:37] He knew he wasn't going to die. He was just burning off his earthly bonds
[21:38] yes
[21:38] how do you mean Grondy?
[21:38] i think it occured to him when they were in moria. remember, he didn't know at the beginning they were going through moria
[21:38] so he was aware that he would come back as Gandalf the White?
[21:38] good point Sam
[21:38] Or perhaps he felt that Frodo was depending too much on him
[21:38] I think so. He knew destruction of his flesh would not be the end
[21:39] His flesh was limiting his powers
[21:39] I agree Val
[21:39] that is why sauron was so powerful because he lost his body when he was in numenor
[21:39] being incarnate
[21:40] excellant point, Sam
[21:40] interesting Sam
[21:40] I think the Valar clothed them in flesh to limit their power, to show them what it was like to be mortal etc
[21:40] but it seems that Sauron's power was linked to the Ring
[21:40] that is a very good point Val
[21:40] that is true too nell
[21:40] that is a good point val
[21:41] Gandalf had learneed this lesson and now needed his full abilities
[21:41] by saurons choice his power was linked to the ring
[21:41] Sauron put part of himself into the Ring
[21:41] but why? if i were him, i wouldn't, because then i could be destroyed.
[21:41] Dumb move on Sauron's part really
[21:42] So that he could dominate others...the One Ring gave him dominion over all those who posessed rings of power
[21:42] He was arrogant and felt so powerful that he was omnipotent
[21:42] yes exactly
[21:42] it was easier than fighting wars
[21:42] except he tied that power to a little object that could be lost
[21:42] but it backfired
[21:42] Maybe he forsaw his doom too in Numenor. He survived that because oif the ring
[21:43] interesting point, val
[21:43] Sort of like a liche
[21:43] While the ring is around he can never die, and no one is going to want to destroy it
[21:43] so he thought
[21:44] so he felt he needed the ring to change what he forsaw?
[21:44] in the end, no one DID destroy it...it was an accident
[21:44] that's true
[21:44] very true
[21:45] Maybe the craving for the ring was a fail safe he put into it to prevent it being destroyed
[21:45] Eru' s invisible ellbo
[21:45] That is a very good point. Sauron was probably quite confident that no one could have the willpower to destroy the ring.
[21:45] perhaps in the end No one COULD have destroyed it...not even Tom Bombadil...
[21:45] A very good failsafe, Val
[21:45] so we are very lucky that gollum fell into the Crack of Doom
[21:46] very lucky for his misstep
[21:46] sauron didn't allow for accidents in his failsafe
[21:46] most don't
[21:46] except gandalf
[21:46] they try, but never forsee all accidents
[21:46] Ifate was the only way the Ring could be destroyed.
[21:46] The only place where it could be destroyed was where he lived too
[21:46] another good point val
[21:47] the best laid plans of mice and tyrants
[21:47] I wonder if Gandalf could have destroyed it?
[21:47] lol you are right sam, gandalf knew that gollum would come in handy
[21:47] he said he couldn't
[21:47] he would have fallen like sauruman
[21:47] If Gandlaf could, I don't think he'd have sent it to Mordor
[21:47] he couldn't even trust himself to hold it
[21:47] it's quite amzing really...the number of things that had to take place...the perfect circumstances had to be in place for the ring to be destroyed
[21:47] interesting that Gandalf could forsee Gollum's role.
[21:47] he would have done so in Bag End if he could havd
[21:48] exactly grondy
[21:48] And Gandalfs forsight was a key part of that
[21:48] What was the differences we see in Gandalf when he returns as Gandalf the White?
[21:49] he is more chatty
[21:49] i think gandalf's counsels allowed for failure. he knew that the errand could and most lilkely would fail and so in the end he relied totally on fate.
[21:49] LOL
[21:49] less closed mouthed
[21:49] more confident...resolved
[21:49] A lot more confidance... He actually says, "I'm not sure if I am a match for sauron yet."
[21:50] That means he knew he was almost a match
[21:50] I also think he was more powerful too
[21:50] absolutely
[21:50] and before he wasn't sure if he could withstand the Nazgul
[21:50] and not afraid to show his power
[21:50] Almost invulnerable
[21:50] but what about the original "forbiddens", did they still apply to Gandalf the White?
[21:51] not sure
[21:51] did they?
[21:51] yes they did
[21:51] he was still a maiar
[21:51] Personally, I think they did
[21:51] I don't think the White can be compared to Saruman's White either. I think it signifies he is now pure
[21:51] ok, those are good points, and they make since
[21:52] that is a very good point Val
[21:52] I think he has returned with new orders from the Valar... more power to contest
[21:52] i agree with that
[21:52] Even though he is under the same obligations I think he had more powers
[21:52] but if Gandalf was completely unrestriained, would he have been a match for sauron...one on one
[21:52] ?
[21:52] so is it that he had more power, or that he was allowed to use power he hadn't been before?
[21:52] and since Saruman was no longerr the white, Gandalf could be
[21:53] He has more power due to the virtue of no longer being limited
[21:53] Now where do we see Gandalf using his power for destruction
[21:53] I think he was allowed to use all the powers granted to him as Olorin
[21:54] but he could only use these powers when Men, Elves, etc found the power of the enemy too great.
[21:54] perhaps he was able to see more clearly the hand of Eru at work?
[21:54] Yes... The constraints had been removed because the Valar knew they could trust him... He had demonstrated this
[21:54] his power was to fill the men with hope
[21:54] Otherwise no one need have died. Gandalf could have used his powers to create a force worth reckoning with.
[21:54] hence the confidence
[21:55] gandalf wasn't there to do evertything for them
[21:55] Gandalf was there as a councilor
[21:55] That was not Gandalf's way though. Doing it like that would have placed him on Sauron's pedistal
[21:56] He wanted them to see they could do it themselves... It was the Age of Men
[21:56] as a facilitator
[21:56] I agree, I think Gandalf still wanted to honour his obligation even though he had increased powers
[21:56] I think that if Gandalfs hands were truly untied...that the "forbiddens" no longer were valid, he could have taken Sauron down himself....clearly he was still limited in some manner
[21:57] If there was any danger he wouldn't, the Valar would not have sent him back
[21:57] BRB
[21:57] Olorin always feared sauron, so maybe Sauron was still the stronger
[21:57] If Gandalf has just used his powers to defeat Sauron then Men would not be really ready, they would feel dependent on the powers of gandalf to keep them safe from evil
[21:58] exactly
[21:58] Men had to overcome the evil of Sauron themselves or they would in the future be crippled due to lack of confidence
[21:58] I think Sauron's powers weakened when he poured some of himself into the ring.
[21:58] if gandalf was stronger than sauron would have feared him and you don't really see that happening
[21:58] Sauron needed the Ring to be whole.
[21:59] You don't see a lot of sauron at all though
[21:59] that's true.
[21:59] I shpould say he was quite afraid of Gandalf
[21:59] *should
[21:59] how did he show fear of Gandalf?
[22:00] Maybe not of Gandalf, but of what he knew he could achieve
[22:00] Perhaps Sauron did not know what Gandalf was
[22:00] Gandalf would not be detectable to sauron because of the Ring
[22:00] I think the red ring kept Gandalf mostly hidden fron Sauron
[22:01] so then how could he fear him?
[22:01] he feared defeat but thought it unlikely
[22:01] He would know some unseen power was rallying his enemies
[22:01] I think that is more likely it, Val
[22:01] all his plots were going askew at the last minute
[22:02] and once Sauron knewe the one ring was found he feared Aragorn
[22:02] because of the prophies
[22:02] But Gandalf was a key figure in Saurons defeat...directly or indirectly
[22:02] I don't think he knew of Aragorn until aragorn revealled himself thrrough the Palantir
[22:02] He really feared Aragorn when Aragorn showed himself to him through the palantir
[22:03] he feared the heir of isildur, but might not have known if one existed
[22:03] I think he thought the line to be broken with Argeleb
[22:03] until the palantir
[22:04] which would explain his reaction to Aragorn
[22:04] both directly and indirectly Nell, because he got Frodo and Sam to go to Mount Doom and he rallied the Theoden and others
[22:04] Once Aragorn revealled himself, sauron moved hastily
[22:04] But what direct threat did the heir of Isildur pose to sauron?
[22:04] that particular palantir worked both ways, didn't it
[22:04] I must have missed something
[22:04] LOL
[22:04] The Numenorian king had defeated him twice before
[22:05] Prog, if Aragorn had the ring he could be invincible
[22:05] sauron thought that they would use the ring against him
[22:05] I see
[22:06] but he would be under the evil influence of Sauron
[22:06] i never thought of that
[22:06] Only over time though
[22:06] true
[22:06] but I thought the whoile point was that the ring could not be effectively used against sauron
[22:06] He might have time to defeat sauron first
[22:06] yes but sauron might not have known that
[22:06] and then become like Sauron later
[22:07] exactly
[22:07] Everything it does turns to evil, but only given time
[22:07] that was why gandalf couldn't use it
[22:07] But as long as the ring survived, so did sauron
[22:07] I think the closer the Ring got to Sauron the less time would be required for the Ring to heed the call of its master
[22:07] Gandald knew it would corrupt him in time
[22:07] the ring could not be used for ultimate good, it would all turn into tears later
[22:08] galadriel, also knew this, as did Elrond
[22:08] Sauron would survive while the Ring was in existance but it had taken him 3000 yrears to regain his powers from the last defeat
[22:08] Even if the ring was used against Sauron...in the end, he would win, no?
[22:08] I think he would, yes
[22:09] I see your point Val
[22:09] excellent points. very interesting
[22:09] I don't think the Ring could be used effectively to defeat Sauron, only through its destruction
[22:10] But back to my original question, if Sauron recognized Gandalf for what he REALLy was, would he have feared him?
[22:10] he put part of his living soul into the ring, it would always be drawn to him
[22:10] because part of Sauron remained in the ring
[22:10] yes, i think he would
[22:10] Cautious maybe
[22:10] He was very arrogant
[22:11] Yes, I think he would have feared him moreso than Man or Elf, but he was too arrogant to really fear defeat by Gandalf
[22:11] maybe sauron thought Aragorn was strong enough to destroy the ring
[22:11] because aragorn had looked into the palantir
[22:11] Ah
[22:11] He had already corrupted Saruman, and he would have held more respect for him than Gandalf
[22:11] Even the Witch-King didn't fear Gandalf
[22:12] no, Sauron was confident he could prevent the destruction of the ring.
[22:12] maybe that is true...maybe Aragorn could have destroyed the ring...maybe sauron knew that
[22:12] I don't think its destruction even crossed his mind
[22:12] I am not sure that Aragorn could have destroyed the ring.
[22:12] Because he coverted it so much, he wouldn't understand someone wanting to destroy it
[22:13] no, he didn't think the others would think of destroying it
[22:13] i am not sure of that either, but why else would sauron fear aragorn
[22:13] Aragorn would have been corrupted ever he drew near to the Mountain
[22:13] yes, Val, you are likely correct. But did he know what Frodo and Sam were up to?
[22:13]