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Letters 248
He [Beren] intercepted a dwarf-army that had descended from the mountains, sacked the realm of Doriaht and slain King Thingol, Luthien's farther, carrying off a great booty, including Thingol's neckalce upon which hung the Silmaril. It seems clear that Beren, who had no army, received the aid of the Ents - and that would not make for love between the Ents and Dwarves.

Letter 144
I think that in fact the Entwives had disappeared for good, being destroyed with their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance (Second Age 3429-3441) when Sauron pursued a scorched policy and burned their land against the advance of the Allies down the Anduin.

Letter 247
No one knew whence they (Ents) came of first appeared. The high elves said that the Valar did not mention them in the 'Music'. But some (Galadriel) were [of the] opinion that when Yavanna discovered the mercy of Eru to Aule in the matter of the Dwarves, she besought eru (through Manwe) asking him to give life to things made of living things not stone, and that the Ents were either souls sent to inhabit trees, or else that slowly took the likeness of trees owing to their inborn love of trees The Ents thus had mastery over stone. The males wre devoted to Orome, but the Wives to Yavanna.

The Elves woke the trees and taught them to speak and learn tree-talk.
The Elves cured us of dumbness long ago

Nature of Ents:
- long lived
- slow to anger
- fierce anger once kindled
- less selfish than Men
- more empathic than Men
- more adaptable and changeable than Elves
- keep their minds on things longer
- long winded

Elves are past oriented, Men future are oriented and Ents are present oriented. - from Hobbits, Elves, and Wizards by Michael Stanton.

Learn now the lore of Living Creatures!
First name the four, the Free Peoples:
eldest of all, the elf-children;
Dwarf the delver, dark are his houses;
Ent the earthborn, old as mountains;
Man the mortal, master of horses.

Some questions to ponder:

If what Treebeard says here is the order of the appearance of the peoples of ME, then did the Ents awaken before Man's awakening in the East?

Were the Ents ordinary trees before being awakened?
Are the Ents soulless?
Are Huorns Ents?
What is the difference between Ents and Trolls?

See you Sunday 4pm ET, 9pm UK

[Edited on 17/11/2002 by Grondmaster]

[Edited on 16/12/2002 by Rednell]

[Edited on 16/12/2002 by Rednell]
Course notes as follows:
What are some of the traits of the Ents?
Very very unhasty
Long winded
tall, tree like
Slow to anger
Protector of the forests
more adaptable than Elves
Shepherd of Trees
live for the present rather than the past or future
Miss their wives
Who "taught" the Ents to speak?
the Elves
Do you think that the Elves were suppose to teach the Ents to speak or was it just something they did to prove they could?
sounds like they just were diong it to prove themselves
The elves liked to hear and listen. I think they taught the ents to speak so they could understand them
I think it was part of Yvanne's deal to keep the Dwarves in check
yes that does seem very elf-like
whatever her name is
Actually, I think you are all right.
When I read Auel and Yavanna, the first thing I thought of when Yavanna made her request was the Ents.
What is the spirit within an ent?
From that chapter I took it to mean she had summoned spirits (ie Maiar)
But I also think the Elves like to listen and tried to see to what extent their gifts were.
I have heard before that some ppl think that the Ents were maiar
...but I really do not think so.
were what?
me neither
There is a spirit within them, or there could not have been the awakening
I thought they were Yavanna's cration like Aule's dwarves, but that is not the case... she did not give themn life
oh I see
go on
Manwe or Eru's original song I'll bet
Manwe saw them in the song
But they are not Eru's children either
no, not Yavanna's creation. I think Eru gave the ents a spirit so they could protect themselves as was Yavanna's wish
I suspect minor maiar spirits
and they could protect the forest and the gardens
Grondy: not in the song. The high elves claim that the Music did not mention the Ents
Manwe saw it in the music as well as the eagles
Recall Treebeard's poem of the Free Peoples
But it didn't mention the Dwarves either
They came after the Dwarves were awakened again, but before the men
Do you see any significance of this poem in the placement of the Ents in ME?
Right after the dwarves
...who were also not Eru's children
Yvanna wished for them after discovering Aule's secret
so they must be Manwe's children to keep the axes away fron Yavanne's trees
In Treebeard's poem, he places the Ents along with the other rational beings of ME
..but would Men, Dwarves, or even the Elves see them as such?
Elves Dwarves, Ents, men
they are also free peoples of Middle-earth
I never did
according to the Ents, Grondy.
I never did either, Val
And the eagles are not mentioned in that poem
Thay were created in the same thought
Eagle in eyrie, ox in pasture
Eagle in eyrie, ox in pasture
your keyboard is working fine now Grondy
I read the lesson
Elves, Dwarves and Men were all given life by Eru. The great eagles and Ents were given life from summoned spirits
ah, that is a significant point, Val
I think the eagles the mentions are different to the Great Eagles of Manwe though
I think you are right Val
*poem mentions
* Quits: Princess99 ( (Quit: Leaving)
so we are left with the choir
So what happened to the entwives?
They left to tend their gardens in the Brown Lands
they couldn't grow their gardens under the trees
For some reason they fled those and were never seen again
the war between Sauron and the Elves and men did them in
colateral damage
so it would seem
* singer^^ is simply listening
listening is fine Singer.
Maybe it was them that became the trolls, and Treebeard was just exagerating their good looks
Did man have any kind of relationship with the Ents?
Val: LOL
I don't think so
They were only supposed to be there until the rise of Man
Did they have a role to play in the rise of Man?
I think not
Maybe the Easterlings used the Entwives as firewood
only that they played their part in this last war against Sauron
I remember in the readings somewhere that the Entwives taught Man how to grow things.
so men learned husbandry from the Entwives?
I read that somewhere outside of Tolkien but didn't know if it was true
no, agriculture, Grondy
The Gramutz plainsmen, realtions of the Rohirrim
I think it was one of Tolkien's letters, perhaps, Val. I forgot to reference it, I have it written here and I only use Tolkien
I think they are synonomus, or maybe it is the husbandry of agriculture
Were the Hurons Ents?
yes, tired old ents
ents who grew too treelike
Maybe then
It doesn't really say anywhere
I think they were lesser sririts than the true ents
Merry says it in F & J
I am not convinced that they are. I tend to think of the Ents as trees with "souls" and the Huorns are living trees.
He was guessing though
I think Old Willowman was a Houron
yes, I agree Grondmaster
I was about to ask about him
but older, perhaps.
and definitely more bitter.
certainly, because he lived in the old forest
The Old Forest once covered most of Eriador. He must hate the Numenorians for felling it
The Ents are called the Shepherd of Trees, I think the Huorns were part of the flock.
I agree, Val. The Ents lost many of their numbers with the felling of Eriador.
I can live with that, so who told Birnham wood to take a walk?
Then with the lost of the Entwives, the numbers just continued to dwindle
They were only supposed to last until the fourth age though
We haven't seen any for ages, unless Bigfoot and the Yeti are really trees
now that is an interesting thought.
You'd have thought Galadriel would have more to do with them... They were neighbours
but a disruption
Galadriel's Ring kept her borders tight
Galadriel offered them something for they help, just looking through my henscratching here.
she may have had more dealings before Dol Guldor awoke
That's a point.... No Rings for the Ents
But the Ents were not really one of the ppls of ME
Sauron wasn't a tree hugger
The other Free Peoples all got Rings
Certainly the elves would not think that
But then again the Hobbits were not given rings wither
And the Ents didn't mix in the afairs of the world, just their trees
That was their purpose "shepherd of trees"
nor did the Hobbits mix in the world
That Sauron did not see the as one of the People, kind of afirms the arguement that they were something different
Would the Ents have got involved at all had Saruman not destroyed so many trees
I don't think so
neither do I. That was not part of their "mandate" so to speak.
I don't think they cared for politics etc unless it effected their trees
Treebeard said Saruman had left the Ents out of his calculation
He would. He was a pupil of Aule
Aule wasn't too bothered when Yavanna told him about them.. He was almost dismissiveT
Sauron didn't even know of Hobbits or where they lived
I don't think Auel took yavanna seriously because Trees were not created as sentient beings in the first place
Just like Taz yesterday when he said, still we must kick Smaug
* Joins: tygetje (
LO ty
welcome, ty
Hi ty
that makes sense Rednell
How do we see the bond develope between Treebeard and Merry and Pippin?
And that sentiment would have possibly been passed to Saruman too
yes, Val, which made the Ent even more dangerous.
He sees them as innocent children
They are a people he has never heard of
I wonder if that is the "shepherd" in him. Kind of a protector.
They are not in the poem
Treebeard respected them, he listened to them and learned from them, and finding they meant no harm he liked them
They bring a hastiness into Fangorn that he has been missing since the passing of the Entwives
they reminded him of the entlings
except he couldn't much remember them
..and the parting words in ROTK when Merry and Pippin leave for the Shire.
The hobbits were curious about the Ents once they learned Treebeard meant them no harm
And they thrived on his entdraughts
To look out for the Entwives?
yes, Grondy.
The Ents still had a modocome of hope
Do you think that Treebeard thought there was any chance of them finding Entwives or was it just a affectionate parting
Their nature
I think he still hoped they would be found
I think he knew their time was almost over though
If it were not for Tolkien's letters I think we would still be holding out hope as well.
else trees were all that awaited the Ents
The whole atmosphere as that ancient feel about it doesn't it
yes, Gandalf told Treebeard it was now the time of Man
*of Fangorn
I love their song: Together we will take the road that leads into the West.
So do the spirits of the ents go across the sea too?
And far away will find a land where both our hearts mat rest.
The New Age begins and in this age it may well prove that the kingdoms of Men shall outlast you, Fangorn, my friend.
The song says it then, the Ents go into the West, or at least their spirits
No that was just the Elves anthropomophidizeing
whatever the word is
but it is the spirits that made it possible for the Elves to teach the Ents to speak.
It makes sense the the spirits would go into the west and the physical shells remain in ME
So, maybe their spirits finnaly do go West
It would make sense
Makes for a much happier ending too
And maybe the Entwives are already there
that way they would get to see the entwife spirits again
Again, I see the hand of Eru here making sure that there is every chance for Man to come into his rule of M
Middle Earht*
Another safeguard
It's a wonder the ents weren't their biggest enemy
and trully needed, smart feller that Eru
Exactly, Val. There was little chance that Saruman could have been overthrown without the help of the Ents.
putting spirits in trees is pretty cleaver.
So what of Trolls?
Corrupted ents?
What were the Trolls made of?
and it explains theings like nyads and dryads too
Made in mockery of the ents
Just as Orcs made a mockery of the elves.
by Sauron
But both have life. Melkor could not give, only corrupt
We will be addressing this subject when we come to the evil beings of ME.
Orcs were elves, troll and ents?
I don't want to think so Val
That is right, which means at some point Eru had to have given spirit to stone as well.
The Dwarves were stone
Orcs were Elves at one point.
yes, Val. You are getting the point.
You think the trolls are corrupted dwarves
they certainly got bigger then
Not Dwarves, but the spirit that was breathed into the stone. This is just a theory at this point. I have to do some research.
Okay... cannot wait for that one, Nell
Sauron could not create life.
He could only corrupt life.
Interesting how the Ents were strong enough to crush stone.
Was there any other stone based lifeform for Sauron to work with
Not sure, Grondmaster.
other than Dwarves
me is gone
That will be researched and discussed at a later lesson.
cheers ty
..and so ends our lesson on Ents.
I still say they were Maiar, Nell. Wink Smilie