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Thread: Week 9 - Elves (continued)

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The log for the discussion is as follows:
We are going to discuss Gildor, Legolas, Celeborn, Galadriel and Haldir
What do we know about Gildor from the Hobbits' encounter with him?
who is he?
He got about ME
He's from Rivendell...a messenger to the Havens
Of the House of Finrod
He says "We are Exiles and most of our kindred have long ago depaarted
we too are now only tarrying here awhile ere we return over the Great Sea
do we get any sense of sadness at this?
the word "exiles" denotes sadness
Sadness at the loss of his people... They were once so much greater
tarrying also gives me sadness
the word, i mean
they are under the Doom, which we havn't studied
it does Sam
By departed, does he mean travelled back over the sea, or Died?
no, but in this passage in LOTR, Tolkien writes"Gildor spoke sad and ominour of gathering darkness and wars of men and flight of elves
i think traveled back over the sea
but he could mean both
I think he is talking about the departure of the elves.
Tens of thousands of his kin were killed in the First Age
the word 'departure' is used in many differnt ways inLotR
this is the first time that I have noticed it mentioned, yet when I read LOTR I never really noticed it until Elrond spoke of it.
as in their time was over
They are like the last embers of a once roaring fire
I agree Grondmaster. I think it was known to the Elves that their time in ME was coming to an end
that is a beautiful analogy val
yes nell
nice analogy, Val
Gildor also says "elves have their own labours and their sorrows and they are little concerned with the ways of hobbits or of any other creatures upon earth
this again gives the impression of their feeling of superiority.
well they were the first born and could walk on snow
I think elves often feel superior, because they are superior in many ways
leaving little footprints, I might add
each race, at some part in the sil. or lotr, acts superior
another thing we learn about the elves through Gildor is that Elves selfom give unguarded advice for advice is a dangerous gift...
Frodo says " go not to the Elves for counsel for they will say both no and yes.
just like the three-handed economists
If you haven't noticed yet, you will see that that seems to be one of the characteristics that comes up in each of our elves.
another is their preceptiveness
Galadriel said similar things
yes she did.
Maybe they were preparing the other races to make their own decisions once they were gone
elrond is the only elf i found who gives real counsel
she says " I will not give your counsel, saying do this or do that."
Maybe that's the human side of him
that is an interesting idea val
yes, Val. I agree
Elrond's council was so he didn't have to keep the ring in Rivendel
Rivendell's strength was its secrecy...With the Ring calling out to everything evil, that strength would be lost
so Gildor and company did keep Frodo and company safe for the night, but were gone by morning.
they were not concerned with the hobbits they had other things to do
the Elves were wise enough to know things can turn out many different ways and no advice is airtight
good point.
but it is natural to seek advice from one you consider to be wise.
would you not expect advice to be forthcoming.
They probably realised they had made their fair shsre of mistakes themselves, and were perhaps not the best people to be giving council
We assume because of their longivity they are wise... Maybe they do not
i never thought of it that way val, that is interesting.
another very good point. I would imagine their age would a pretty difficult concept for men and hobbits to grasp
and yet they knew the other races looked up to them and so they wanted to keep their superioritiy
but Gildor's advice was to get out of Dodge afore the Black Riders catch you and he went on to prepare the way
Nothing like giving bad advice to lose your credibility
I think Frodo was looking for come more concrete advice, Grondmaster.
If he had told Frodo all he knew about the Black Riders, Frodo might have given up right away
that is why advice is a dangerous gift
You can have too much knowledge
I don't think Gildor felt it was his place to advise Frodo, that is what Gandalf was to do
And at that time, everyone though Gandalf had matters in hand
What do we know about Legolas from LOTR?
and Goldor didn't know about the ring, did he?
no i don't think so grondmaster
we know that he also longs for the sea
Legolas is a Prince from Mirkwood
we know that he is the son of Thranduilo
He's just lost Gollum
ok, Val, why did they lose Gollum?
He's not as noble as some of the Rivendell elves
they were too kind to him
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they are diferent elves from the Lothlorien elves too
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how so, Grondmaster
more simple lives
Lothlorien elves a right mixed bunch
Nandor, Sindar and Noldor
more like tree-huggers
when tolkien first introduced the mirkwood elves, they were more like the traditional elves you read about
in the hobbit
I agree Sam
go on, Sam.
Rustic almost
what are some of the characteristics of the wood elves
and he did not know that they would become so wound up in his later ME saga
they love nature
an almost child-like love for nature
they did not have as many battles
In a way, they are almost stone age
they aren't so wound up in the past, live more in the present
good point
but they know the stories of the past.
they are more enjoying living
do they?
Legolas told the story of Nimrodel
right, I forgot that
although he had never been there, he knew and believed the stories.
another sort of childlike aspect of mirkwood elves
Maybe they don't feel the weight of the world on their shoulders
Did the book Legolas know who Aragorn was?
i don't think so
The little competition between Legolas and Gimli is also fun and child-like.
They weren't exciles like the Noldor
though aragorn traveled a lot as strider
I didn't notice any reference to it Val
In the film, he's the one who tells Boromir
Gildor's people had travelled with the rangers.
and Gandalf too Gollum to Mirkwood, not Aragorn
elrond tells Boromir in the book
How old is Legolas?
interesting question. There is no mention of his age.
Was he from Mirkwood, or Beleriand?
4 thousand something?
or is that too much?
His father was a kinsman of Celeborn and Thingol back in Doriath
i would think from mirkwood
I think Mirkwood, I don't think his father ever crossed the mountains
I'm not sure whether Legolas was around then or not
well i suppose you would ask, how old was thranduil?
His father was from Beleriand... They wer Sindar
I don't think he was. I had the impression that Legolas didn't travel a great deal outside of Mirkwood.
The question is why would Elrond choose Legolas to be one of the Fellowship?
becasue of his connexion with gollum, perhaps
perhaps, I never really thought about that.
was legolas the elven prince that bilbo saw in mirkwood in the hobbit?
I think so.
we don't even know if he had any siblings
Probably to keep the Mirkwood elves involved
They were the largest population of elves left in Middle Earth
there were other communities of Elves, why Mirkwood?
good point.
and because he was handy
galdor was also handy
very handy with the bow and arrow.
And Glorfindel
and the elves of the grey havens were not involved
Maybe the Noldor had lready done their bit though
but Galdor was needed for comunication and Glorfindel for defence
perhaps. they certainly did do a lot
good point grondy
Legolas was the only Elf in LOTR that I saw with a sense of humour.
I like Val's last statement
lol, i agree nell
it may have to do with him not having much bad experiences
If you had to take an Elf along on the journey, Legolas would probably be the one who would mix well with the other races.
that is true, though he was aloof with gimli at first
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There was a natural distrust between elves and dwarves.
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Most the fellowship were sons of past heros... Legolas was son of the King of Mirkwood
All Princes or Lords in waiting
interesting point.
or Mayors
yes it is val.
but would they not likely be the ones to be invited to the council of Elrond.
but then that is only a result of their winning the war
legolas was sent by thranduil to represent mirkwood
maybe thranduil thought legolas was worth something for the fellowship
That would narrow down the choices I think. Elrond didn't really want to send Merry and Pippin, he planned to send 2 elves from Rivendell
I agree Nell
Maybe his sons
that questions has been tossed around a few times.
yes, or erestor or glorfindel
I don't think the Fellowship would have made it very far with any other elf.
It is Gandalf who says friendship might be more powerful than strength of arms
we haven't got to Celeborn or Galadriel yet
Legolas appears more compassionate than most elves.
we will get to them Grondmaster.
Even when he mentions about the Dwarves delving too deep and Gimli gets defensive, Legolas says that he did not blame the Dwarves.
he is wise in that way
Legolas had not been effected by the Balrog like those from Lothlorien had though
geographically, mirkwood was far away from most of the excitment
I think the only reason he gets out of sorts with Gimli at Lothlorien is that his pride didn't like the idea of being blind folded and not seeing the beauty of Lorien which he really desired to see.
except dol guldur, of courese
yes nell i agree with you
Mirkwood elves had lived to see Greenwood the Great become Mirkwood
They had had their share of troubles
I agree with the blindfold bit, Nell
ok, lets get to Haldir as they enter Lothlorien.
he was more friendly than the other elves
in lothlorien
Very haughty to begin with though
yes, Val
he could speak the Westron
yes. becasue of the balrog bit perhaps
Not happy to let Gimli in
He was doing his job as a border patrolman
He was one of the few elves in lothlorien to travel outside gathering news
i got the impression news was sent to him
his displeasure with the dwarf had more to do with the law.
no, he says that he is one of the elves who travels outside
he makes Legolas responsible for all the others with the exception of the Hobbits.
because legolas is an elf
and his elves had no fear of the hobbits
do we feel any sadness in Haldir?
I didn't
i thought he was sad
nor me
because he knew that breaking hte law meant changes
I didn't until I re-read it today.
(when he let gimli in)
I think he was happy in the Golden Wood, but he was woried that war was coming
"for the Elves, I fear, it will prove at best a truce, in which they may pass to teh sea unhindered and leave middle earth forever."
agreed Val
he too knew the time of the departure of the Elves was near.
the elves of lorien, perhaps more than any others, loved ME, atleast their part of it
I don't think they were worried about departure... They were worried about what would happen to their woods once they had gone
i agree val
Oh of course, that is why they were so sad to leave.
And like Mirkwood elves, most of them were Avari
and they didn't believe men were ready to take care of ME.
define "Avari" please
men had never showed them love for ME
They'd use the woods for firewood
Those who did not go west or into Beleriand
got ir, thanks
they were the 'unwilling'
ok, let's get to Celeborn and Galadriel
Actually they are not Avari, because the Avari did not join the journey at all
They were Umanyar though
galadriel had been born in valinor
probably Nandor then
They were Nandor
celeborn was from doriath
He was a kinsman of Thingol
As was Galadrial through her mother
galadriel was of the house of finarfin
relationship with Galadriel?
Galadrial's mother was Earwen sister of Olwe
Galadriel was Finarfin's daughter
Finarfin and Earwen
let's start with Celeborn's reaction to the Fellowship when they arrive.
Technically, she was half Noldor, half Teleri
her brother was Finrod
how does Celeborn react to Gimli?
Dwarven scum
well ut
Balrog prodder
also well pout
yeah, didn't like having him around.
Killer of King Thingol etc
i must go now. thanks for class nell
* Quits: Sam ( (Quit: Leaving)
really held a grudge for a long time.
Lots of bad blood between them
didn't see him as a person, but as a stereotypical dwarf
Interesting how he changes after hearing about the plight of the Fellowship through Moria.
Yet if it wasn't for the Balrog, Amroth would still be king of Lothlorien
and Celborn's job would be easier Val
He'd not have a
or was it the words Gimli spoke to Galadriel that softened Celeborn's harsh tongue.
I think the fact that Galadriel forgave him did a lot
but a crown is a heavy burden to bear
Gimli's words to Galadriel
Celeborn couldn't help but see the respect Gimli had for Galadriel
Gimli became a person then
It was probably the first dwarf he had seen face to face for a long while
rather than a symbol of dwarvenkind
In this initial meeting between the fellowship and Celeborn and Galadriel, Galadriel does most of the talking to get information.
Yet he was representing dwarvenkind on the quest
It's Galadrial who wears the trousers in Lorien
and only a campassionate, fun-loving elf like Legolas could travel with him.
that has to do with her way of soliciting information
are her powers magic or perceptive
Celeborn was the wisest and used the best tool availabe to him
Boromir could feel her in his mind
so could they all
That's magic, not perception
I tend to think more perceptive. She says that she knows what was, what is and in part what shall be
The mirror is magical
and then she says maybe, cause it stands on a knife edge
I think she "studies" them
but didn't they say they could feel her reading they inner thoughts?
she could deduce that from the events that have taken place and the events are are unfolding, Grond
I think her elven skills would be classed as magic by humans though
they could feel her reading their inner thoughts, yes
point well take, Val.
again, neither Celeborn, nor Galadriel will give advice.
and I think her ring gave her that extra power that another elf wouldn't have had
Maybe they are weary of the Ring influencing their advice
but Celeborn is also very preceptive. although he will not give advice to Aragorn, he can see the distress on Aragorn's face and gives him the boats to buy him some time to sort out some plan
that is his great wisdom showing through
Val, that is a very interesting thought, if it weren't for Gildor's and Frodo's statements
Celeborn is often called the Wise... He doesn't show it too much in either book or film
the wisdom not to give counsel, Grondy?
I think he did show it in the book when he gave Aragorn some time to think things through better.
yes because he knew not the correct road for them to take
Maybe his wisdom is for the reader to seek out between the lines... Next time I read it, I will be looking deeper than previously
Galadriel appears to be wiser in the book. I think it is because of her "magic" we see her as a more predominent figure.
if he were to set them on the wrong road it would be worse than to offer no advice at all
this is true and probably the reason wise elves did not give advise.
Also, having seen the light of the trees, she would have strengths that Celeborn did not
she has more camera time as it were in the book than Celeborn
this is true, Val.
or at least her camera time in the book is more dramatic, Grondy.
Technically, she should be High Queen of the Noldor
Which is probably why she has her ring Val
That would have been reflected when they were given out for sure
Celeborn knew his place. You do have to read between the lines abit, but he never dominates Galadriel.
How do you see the situation between Galadriel and Amroth?
Maybe that is another aspect of his wisdom
Amroth is King but only Sindarin... Galadriel turns up and pretty soon after Amroth departs
Amroth was love sick, wasn't he?
He was, but who ruled Lorien , him or Galadriel?
the man behind the woman or the woman behind the man
By the time of LotR, Galadriel ruled Lorien, but she never took the title
It laways seemed a bit strange to me
Where do you find this Amroth?
He is King of Lorien at the time the dwarves awake the Balrog
You get part of it in the Lays of Nimrodel in LOTR. Legolas sings it but stops before the end.
He is in love with Nimrodel who wishes to go over the sea because she is afraid of Balrog
It is in the Chapter "Lothlorien", Grondmaster.
okay, I find his name in the prince and the mound but that was it
They become separated in the White Mountains and lose each other
Amroth drowns when his ship breaks its moorings in a storm while he is waiting for her
He tries to swim ashore but is never seen again
okay, I now understand
Her handmaiden is the elf who gives elvish blood to Imrahil's line
But I always had the impression that Galadriel had muscled in with her superior Noldor blood
She had gone to Middle earth because she wished to rule her own realm
well, I don't think Amroth was in any shape to care about it anyway.
she left Valinor because she wan'ted to be the queen of a realm of her own
And most people see her as being that in Lorien... It was not her realm though
What would have happened to the quest had she not been Queen of Lorien?
true but love sometimes changes one's ambitions for good or ill
I don't think too much would have changed... She's have still aided the party
the fellowship might never have left the golden wood
Undoubtedly she was a better ruler than Amroth
interesting scenerio.
Sometimes I think it was an oversight on Tolkien's part
She gave very important gifts.
Amroth might have claimed the ring
He may have done
her gifts were unique in that they fited the need of the recipient
But who would rule Lorien if Amroth had not left? I think Galadriel would be the power
The gifts Galadriel gave were vital to the continuation of ME
to the journey and to the continuation
I think it will be fun to discuss Tom Bombadil next week
Like I mentioned the other day, most of those concentrated on are royalty, not typical
that's true, we only see the leaders, who are foreigners really
yes, that is true, even Legolas is royalty.
Maybe I should say Noldorian royalty
The Noldor were a special breed really
Burned bright but burned out
like the trees which they had seen?
One of the reasons it is more challenging to cover the elves in a LOTR study like this one is that Tolkien gives us so much information in other sources.
Too much for our needs here
way too much for this.
It's hard differentiating between them though when you have read the books
and hard to talk about without drawing in so of the other texts
I cannot always remember my sources of information
anyway, I have learned a lot more about the Elves from your added input.
I need to give LotR another read soon
anyway, this officially ends the class.
Well done Nell for managing to sort out a lesson from so much source material (or so little if you limit yourself to LotR). Again, I came away with lots of new ideas.
Wish I could have been there. But we were out shopping. (suposedly for food, but we came home with a new puppy instead. Like I need another animal in my house. I should have just stayed home, and gone to Nell's class. Then I would never have been tempted.
Thanks for the class Nell, it was great! Sorry I had to leave (I was sick). Mellie, I hope you can make the next one. Big Smile Smilie