Ringwraiths/Nazgul:From JRR Tolkien Letters:
Letter # 246
Quote:
Sauron sent at once the Ringwraiths. They were naturally fully instructed and in no way deceived as to the real lordship of the Ring. The wearer would not be invisible to them, but the reverse; and the more vulnerable to their weapons. But the situation [note: referring to Frodo in Mount Doom] was now different to that under Weathertop, where Frodo acted merely in fear and wished only to use (in vain) the Ring's subsidiary power of conferring invisibility. He had grown since then. Would they have been immune from its power if he claimed it as an instrument of command and domination?
Not wholly, I do not think they could have attacked him with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor command of his that did not interfere with their errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings ( which he held) had primary control of their wills.
Letter # 210
Quote:
Their [Black Riders] peril is almost entirely due to the unreasoning fear which they inspire (like ghosts). They have no great physical power against the fearless; but what they have, and the fear that they inspire is enormously increased in darkness. The Witch-king, their leader, is more powerful in all ways than the others; but he must not be raised to the stature of Vol III.
There put in command by Sauron, he is given an added demonic force. But even in the Battle of Pelennor, the darkness had only just broken.
Unfinished Tales: The Hunt for the Ring
Quote:
At length he [Sauron] resolved that no others would serve him in this case but his mightiest servants, the Ringwraiths, who had no will but his own, being each utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved him, which Sauron held.
Now few could withstand even one of these fell creatures an (as Sauron deemed) none could withstand them when gathered together under their terrible captain, the Lord of Morgul.
Quote:
The Lord of Morgul therefore led his companions over Anduin, unclad and unmounted, and invisible ot eyes, and yet a terror to all liveing things that they passed near. It was, maybe, on the first day of July that they went forth. They passed slowly and in stealth, through Anorien, and over the Entwase, and so into the Wold, and rumour of darkness and a dread of men knew not what went before them. They reached the west-shores of Anduin a little north of Sarn Gebir, as they had trysted; and there received horses and rainment that were secretly ferried over the river.This was (it is thought) about the seventeenth of July. Then they passed northward seeking for the Shire, the land of the Halflings
.
[Edited on 11/1/2003 by Rednell]
Barrowwights:
From 'The Adventures of Tom Bombadil':
Quote:
Dark came under Hill. Tom, he lit a candle;
upstairs creaking went, turned the door-handle.
'Hoo, Tom Bombadil! Look what night has brought you!
I'm here behind the door. Now at last I've caught you!
You'd forgotten Barrow-wight dwelling in the old mound
up there on hill-top with the ring of stones round.
He's got loose again. Under earth he'll take you.
Poor Tom Bombadil, pale and cold he'll make you!'
'Go out! Shut the door, and never come back after!
Take away gleaming eyes, take your hollow laughter!
Go back to grassy mound, on your stony pillow
lay down your bony head, like Old Man Willow,
like young Goldberry, and Badger-folk in burrow!
Go back to buried gold and forgotten sorrow!'
Out fled Barrow-wight through the window leaping,
through the yard, over wall like a shadow sweeping,
up hill wailing went back to leaning stone-rings,
back under lonely mound, rattling his bone-rings
From Fellowship of the Ring: Fog on the Barrow-downs
Quote:
Then he told them that these blades were forged many long years ago by Men of Westerness: they were foes of the Dark Lord, but they were overcome by the evil king of Carn Dum in the land of Angmar.
From Fellowship of the Ring: Appendix A/The North Kingdom and the Dunedain
Quote:
It was at this time that an end came of the Dunedain of Cardolan, and evil spirits out of Angmar and Rhudaur entered into the deserted mounds and dwelt there.
It is said that the mounds of Tyrn Gorthad, as the Barrowdowns were called of old, are very ancient, and that many were built in the days of the old world of the First Age by the forefathers of the Edain, before they crossed the Blue Mountains into Beleriand, of which Lindon is all that now remains. Those hills were therefore revered by the Dunedain after their return; and there many of their lords and kings were buried. [Some say that the mound in which the Ring-Bearer was imprisoned had been the grave of the last prince of Cardolan, who fell in the war of 1409.]
[Edited on 11/1/2003 by Rednell]
[Edited on 11/1/2003 by Grondmaster]
[Edited on 11/1/2003 by Rednell]
[Edited on 11/1/2003 by Rednell]
Mouth of Sauron:
The Return of the King: The Black Gate Opens.
Quote:
At its head there rode a tall and evil shape, mounted upon a black horse, if horse it was; for it was huge and hideous, and its face was a frightful mask, more like a skull than a living head, and in the sockets of its eyes and in its nostrils there burned a flame. The rider was robed all in black, and black was his lofty helm; yet this was no Ringwraith but a living man. The Lieutenant of the Tower of Barad-dur he was, and his name is remembered in no tale; for he himself has forgotten it, and he said: 'I am the Mouth of Sauron." But is is told tht he was a renegade, who came of the race of those that are named the Black Numenoreans; for they established their dwellings in Middle-earth during the years of Sauron's domination, and they worshipped him, being enamoured of evil knowledge.
Letter #131
Quote:
A new religion, and worship of the Dark, with its temple under Sauron arises. The Faithful are persecuted and sarificed. The Numenoreans carry their evil also to Middle-earth, and there become cruel and wicked lords of necromancy, slaying and tormenting men; and the old legends are overlaid with dark tales of horror.
[Edited on 11/1/2003 by Rednell]
[Edited on 11/1/2003 by Rednell]
The log from the class discussion in Bilbos-study:
Shall we begin?
Yes please
We will start with the Ringwraiths, then go onto the
barrow wights then the mouth of Sauron.
Undead, terrifying, cold, sinister
k
Val is telepathic
getting used to things
When do we first see the Ringwraiths in LOTR
Coming into the Shire
Their purpose?
Disguised as black riders
finding the ring
They are searching for the Ring
To find the Ring
and the Ring bearer
hunting the ring
who do they serve?
Sauron
Sauron
baggins & shire
How does Sauron control the Nazgul?
the nine rings
One ring to rule them all
9 rings
He holds their Nine Rings
They once owned the nine rings of mortal man
What has become of them?
The nazgul or the rings?
both
* Ghan-buri-Ghan has joined #bilbos-study
they are tied together
they were corupted by their greed, sorta
hullo Ghan
welcome Grondmaster
Hi I'm late sorry
welcome Ghan-buri-Ghan
They became wraiths at the end of their natural
lives when the power of the rings would not let them die
What is a wraith?
Nell: us first two letters
After he lost his own ring, Sauron reclaimed theirs
to better control them
* MellSnow is now known as mellieeating
I was too quick with the enter, Grondmaster
very good Val
Where did their powerful black horses come from?
Rohan
specially chosen for their colour
or the Southrons?
How did they get them from Rohan?
The Rohans
The Rohirrim paid them in tribute for something
When?
Sauron deceived the horse masters then bred the black
horses to be the cruel bearers of the Nazgol
Although they said they held no alligance either way
Maybe it happened long ago when Rohan was overrun
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Was it not said that the horses neded special
training to bear such unearthly riders?
They did not know the purpose or they would never have
given the black steeds to Sauron.
They did know where they were going though
No they didn't
Ghan-buri-Ghan, yes I did read that as well
Ah, they just sold them to an itinerant horse trader
Like elves corrupted into orcs, some parallel there
i think.
good point. Only the horses would not have had the free
will in the first place.
good one Ghan-buri-Ghan
* Sam has joined #Bilbos-Study
Similar hoses to begin with. The elven horses did
not fear the Nazgul either
Hey Sam!
Welcome Sam
Hi Sam
That makes sense, as normal horses go span near the
Black Riders
Hi
that is true they did not val
I thought the Black Riders used horses from Rohan
yes they do sam
This would probably be due to the training they received
in Mordor
This brings us back to Nell's question: What is a
wraith?
the spirit of the kings that bore the 9 rings
i imagine it's some kinda ghost..
and these were probably offspring from the original
Rohan horses, bred to accept the Nazgul
So did I Remi
A ghost would indicate a death first. These men did not die
A wraith is a ghost or apperition according to
Oxford dictionary
They are neither living or dead.
thus "some kind of"..
undead corrupt spirits evil
Indeed but it is something that has an appearance
in one world but exists in two worlds
good definition
These are undead spirits tied to the rings
I didn't think wraiths had to be evil
thought the Ringwraiths were of course
Why would the Nazgul be Sauron's most powerful servants?
I think they live partly in the Void too
Yes, I like your definition Ghan
Because they can be totally trusted by him
The power of the Ring drives them
That is a very interesting point, Val
I got the impression that the Void was only reachable by Ainur
because of the rings that he holds have primary hold
on their wills
Melkor was bannished to the void, was he not?
i always thought his most powerful servants was the balrogs??
The balrogs were Melkor's servants
Yes, but Balrogs were before the Nazgul were made
I think they were too powerful for Sauron to control
Agree mellie. But what will of their own do they
have when they are enslaved to the rings
agreed
ok, i see ur point val
Balrogs are maiar of the same order as Sauron
none Ghan-buri-Ghan
that is why they were trusted
I did not know that Ghan, I suppose that would explain a lot
lord of the balrogs was Morgoth's son and he became
the 2nd in command of the Nazgul
Yes, mellie. And one critic has pointed out that
wraiths are "form without content" -- an apparition of power that
is borrowed from elsewhere
The new evil is less powerful than the old; just as is
the case between the new and old Elves and the new and old men
I like that Grondmaster
Where did you find that Mellie
good point Grondmaster
Agree Grondy
lost tales 1
The world is slowly losing its magic
Ghan, I like that quote, what do you think 'elsewhere' means?
The Void, the Ethereal etc
from the Valar?
true grondmaster, i just assumed sauron being morgoths "2nd
in command" he'd take over control of all his servants too
the spirit world, maybe
The suggestion was that Tolkien's vision of evil
power was that it is handed down from a leader to his followers --
all power id derived from some leader
Yes that is true Ghan
but is it truely handed down or is control still in the
completely in the hands of the leader?
that is true Ghan
I think that it is in the hands of the leader
Does Sauron still serve Morgoth, or does he do it
for his own ends?
loaned, but controled
but one ofthe ways Sauron tricked his followers was by making
them think they were in control
It seems that the followers partake of the evil,
ilke the Mouth of Sauron
Good point sam
Thats one way of doing it sam
Morgoth is gone, Sauron serves his own ends
Good question, Val. I think Saron has his own ends as
Morgoth has been banished to the void
I suppose the question would be, how gone is Morgoth being in
the Void? Can he still control his servents from there
i think not sam
I don't think so, Sam
I think not also
I think you are probably right, but perhaps his memory and his
spirit are still in the hearts of his followers
But maybe Sauron's goals are still the same
But Sauron has placed his confidence in the power of the
one Ring
i agree val, sauron just continues where morgoth left
The same structures are repeated on ever-finer
levels -- all evil is a reflection of Morgoth's betrayal but on a
lessser scale. And it is not needed for Morgoth to will it into
being.
In order to control all the other Rings
Yes Ghan, I agree
true, Ghan-buri-Ghan
The Original Sin
Very similar, Grondy
Is Sauron then more evil?
just a different world
than whom, Rednell?
I believe he was said to be crueler
Morgoth
to achieve his ends?
Sauron defied the Valar but Morgoth defied Eru
i think so nell, as melkor wasn't created evil to begin with
(i think)
I think he was equal in power as Morgoth used to be, but not
more
That is a good point Ghan
Melkor was just another of Eru's personalities as
were all of the Valar and Maiar
entropy probably effect evil too
of course.
then they both defied Eru, Sauron being a maiar
what is entropy please? (sorry)
Entropy is the natural trend of the universe to
disorder
The opposite is enthalpy -- the trend to greater
structure
Thus it is easy to draw an analogy between evil and
entropy
but may not fit the current discussion
Who is the leader of the Nazgul?
The Witchking of Angmar
which-king of Angmar
I get it, thanks Ghan
the witch-king of Anmar
Did he have powers before becoming a wraith?
the Lord of the Nazgul
He was a sorcerer (not a wizard like the Istari)
He may have been a sorceror
Yes or he wouldn't have been given a ring?
I always thought he was a powerful king
wasn't all wraiths kings of men?
Yes Remi I think so
yes
They were powerful lords, but whether they were true
kings ?
* Littleirena has joined #bilbos-study
i gotta go play in the snow, sorry to leave so soon
Hi Littleirena
* mellieeating is now known as MellieSnow
OK mellie take care
hullo
hi
We don't get snow often
Kings and Lords seem to be used interchangeably often in
Tolkien's books.
Ok Mellie, hope you enjoyed yourself
That is true
yup
The lord of some city may have been known locally as
a king
is it still the wraiths?
yes
sp
yes
yes
k
one High king many Lords who were Little Kings
yes that was my understanding of it
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How do the Nazgul appear to Frodo when he puts on the ring?
Their ghostlike form
as spirits
white personna
Is this more frightening than as they appeared on
horseback in the shire?
good word
Yes
yes
Yes
yup
not sure
More disturbing as he has entered their world
i think so
we are seeing their more true nature
I like that Valedhelgwath
and they look sorta like sceletons
yes Val I agree
Clothing with emptiness inside is scary but Frodo
sees them in their full power
like emptiness without clothing
right, Gahn
well said
* Remi has joined #Bilbos-Study
like he sees them in their after-form
This is the first time they can see that the Nazgul can
indeed injure them with a physical force using the morgul knives.
hullo Remi wb
hi, computer not cooperative
wb Remi. that is true Nell, before they were only phantoms
But that is a spiritual injury, they also weild
normal swords to effect physical harm, Nell
I don't think they ever doubted that the Nazgul
could harm them though
What makes the wound from teh Morgul knife more terrifying
than that of a normal blade?
yes, you're probably right
It turnes the injured person into a wraith
who wore armor, carried swords, and rode big black
horses
Turning into a wraith would undoubtedly be a fate worse
than death.
Thats the fate the barroe wights chose though
because it is undeath
*barrow
In both Gollum and denethor are other examples of
the old adage that power corrupts, as does the power of all the
rings except the elven ones
who brought (so to speak) the Barrow Wights to the Barrow
Downs
Undead yearn for the life they have lost, and only
feel the cold of the grave
it does not fit Eru's plan for Men
Only because the Elven Rings were hidden from Sauron.
Yes Nell
The witchking and spirits from Angmar
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Were the wights not evil spirits that just seized
on martal remains?
mortal
That is an interesting idea Ghan
The wights were dead Edain and Numenorian lords into
which evil spirits from Angmar entered and took control of them
yes
yes
